namor vs. spiderman

Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

Originally posted by Zahit
Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

Class 100 just means "The character is capable of lifting in excess of 100 tons"

The Hulk? Superman? Namor? Colossus? All are class 100, but ALL have feats of strength that are WAY past 100 class.

Originally posted by Zahit
Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

The people who invented the character, however, have put him above measly 100 tons. Including Bill Everett, his creator (who also was the first artist of Namor). Including ol' Stan. John Byrne. Roy Thomas. Bob Harras. And so on.

Handbooks are written by some guy who hasn't written a comic in his life.

Which one should we trust?

And like Soljer said, Class 100 is more then 100 tons.

yes. feats past 100 tons. but 200,000 tons???

that's like saying I can lift over 1 pound.

He's done 100,000+ feats more then once, including under the pen of his own creator.

Hulk is also Class 100, but he lifts millions of tons on regular basis...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And like Soljer said, Class 100 is more then 100 tons.

I believe all Class 100 means, is that particular character can lift at least 100 tons.

submariner

Originally posted by Zahit
yes. feats past 100 tons. but 200,000 tons???

that's like saying I can lift over 1 pound.

It's EXACTLY like saying that you can lift more than a pound. As DC pointed out - look at some of Hulk's top feats. He's still class 100.

Hell, look at power gem wielders. Still class 100. Look at Modt or Jahf. Still class 100.

Hell, even the Living Tribunal would only be classed as Class 100, and we know that with his near omnipotence, he could grant himself FAR more than the kind of strength we've ever witnessed on panel.

Simply, comic book writers don't want to start attaching numbers to everyone. "He's not class 13401324! He's 13401325!!"

100 is simply ANYWHERE in excess of 100 tons.

🙂.

Namor lifts thousands without breaking a sweat.

And this post seems really disjointed.

Oh well.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Dude... no.... please....stop........

I believed you just embarrassed yourself. I'm pretty sure many here knows that a peak human (pro boxer) can hit with more than 1800lbs per square inch. It is a somewhat common fact. In which you can learn on the discovery channel about martial arts striking or the movie "Rocky IV".
Thus with more than 5 square inches of fist area you can clearly see that 4 tons is actually a nice estimate.

Originally posted by rotiart
actually what it means is that he cannot react physically fast enough even though his mind tells him to me... much like a deer caught in the headlights...

When daredevil fought spiderman, his radar sense told him where spiderman was coming from, but he even said spiderman was much faster then he was, and therefore he could not get away...

his radar sense gives him 360 degrees of sight... he sees you coming at all times..

Spiderman's "precog" otherwise known as spidersense warns him of impending danger... do you even know wtf thats based on? lemme give you a lesson young pup.

a spider has a web. When a fly lands in said web, the web moves, spider knows where the vibrations came from to let him know whats up.
I, being a larger then spider mortal, have caught many a spider, how you say? big jar, slammed over top of spider, never disturbing his web. even if you disturb the web, the spider can only react SO fast.

You make allusions to the fact that spiderman moves ftl. Which is complete and utter bs. you say the greater the threat, the better he'll react. Well fancy this, spiderman has shown that he can dance around powerful.. .but slow opponents, but that he can still get tagged by others.

You aren't even using his shown abilities, you're making statements about what he COULD do, not what he has done... btw all these arguements about the fact that he can sense the danger coming means jack when he still gets tagged. And if you wanna go against 40 years showing what his established abilities are....

😆

If you find at least 1000 spiderman comics (from any years). I guarantee you that you will find at least 300 (and im underestimating)
scenes where he dodges super fast attacks such as bullets, energy, fists attacks from super power beings, etc.

Spidey has proven his spider-sense is precog a billion times. Not only has Marvel said it a million times in every handbook, marvel card, and website in existence, they have shown it constantly in the comics. Thus rendering what you said nonsense.

Yes spidey has been hit.
Yes Wolverine cut Thanos with bone claws.
Yes Cap has throw his shield faster than sound.
Yes spiderman beat firelord.
Yes Thor with superior reflexes let slow Juggs hit him.

Yes writers do bad writing.
Yes writers write characters not using the best of their abilities often.
Yes spidey sense is precog.

Remember the forum rules: Characters must use the best of their abilities. That means spidey has his spidersense.

Originally posted by tkitna
Namor has hit Quicksilver, Speed Demon, and the Whizzer, but yet has a problem connecting with Spiderman? Give me a break (although I see this as I saw the Doc Samson thread, but got shot down there too).

Namor 10/10

Spider sense my friend.

Originally posted by Zahit
Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yes!

I still don't think so.

Comics override handbooks as canon. Namor has done greater feats then written in handbooks before and after handbooks were published.

I'll take the word of his creator over some random handbook writer, sorry. And I don't say that Spider-Man can't lift over 40 tons, if you show me where, sure, I'll accept...

You must don't know how handbooks are made by marvel. Take a look at this and go to "how character profile is done": http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:FAQ#How_do_you_go_about_writing_each_profile.3F

It explains that the writers (who themselves write the comics) read
"through the entry-subject's every appearance in chronological order, making notes of the significant data." It also explains that if there is any conflicting data then the handbook writers go to the original writers of that character and clarify the ruling situation.

Also shame on you for not knowing that Spider has shown 40tons or more strength countless times. You are supposed to be a comic fan.
Go the spiderman's respeck page. They list several feats in which he lifted about 40tons of steel of his back, partially braced a multistory building (in which weighs hundreds of thousands of tons), etc. All these under great stress of course.

Few attacks, yeah. But when you are attacked all the time, you will get hit sooner or later, especially if your attacker moves as fast as you do.

According to your reasoning, Spider-Man could dodge Flash...

Beautiful! Very good reasoning there. I give you props there.
My defense to that is that flash isn't some dumb beam of light with no mind of his own. He can move and react so fast that time nearly stands still. Thus spidey is caught in a still frame in a dodging stance.
So spidey can't dodge him. But namor is nowhere even close to that speed. Namor looks at spidey, determines to swing in his mind, spidey's sense rings, namor swings, spidey dodges (spidey has already started to move before the intial frame of namor's animation).

Your opinion, is sadly wrong. Namor written to best of his ability dodges lasers and other things that are faster then Spider-Man, thus he can dodge Spider-Man too. And he even doesn't need to, Namor written best to his ability can take the best punch Iron Man can throw and not even budge.

Didn't I refute that?
Moving in evasion action to dodge lasers is what all can do (even me if im lucky). Namor taking the best IM punch without budging is laughable.
I would like to see that nonetheless.
That means that it is okay for bats to take high class 100 hits from evil enemies (who are tying to kill him) in the face. Which means that bats has superman's durability right? That means Namor's durability is far greater than Sentry's in which IM busted his nose with one hit.

He is way more then 1000 times stronger then you.

The force of his punches is measured on Richter scale, literally.

Sadly, comics override handbooks as canon, especially on this forum.

Without consistentcy (in which the handbook gives), then comics would be in total chaos. Nothing would make sense.

Actually, he is only few feet away, want to see the whole page?

I already proved that he dodges at the same time, as he dodges it on same panel on the same time the guy shoots.

There is movement showing that he dodges, those two pages are from same comic...

He sculpted an Hulk statue, making hundreds of hand movements in a second? Where?

Comics >> Handbooks when it comes to canon material. This came up on Gladiator feat, where it said that he went inside the star but the artist was crappy and could not draw a star very well, so some retards started arguing that it was not star just because of bad art.

Unless stated otherwise, the span between panels is only few seconds at best. And seeing as they all appeared on the same time, trapping the monster...

In dodging? Yes. Pure movement speed, still no.

Sadly, your reasoning is wrong. According to rules of this forum and common sense. Even before you came to this forum, it was already decided that handbooks have lot of mistakes, and comic book feats override them.

Yes they do. But that is why we must go on the writer's intentions as well (In which is what you implied). Marvel writers not only know that Namor is 100tons strength but they continue to write it in hanbooks (since the beginning more than 30 years) and at their official website. Obviously Namor was intended (by original writer) not to exceed the 100 ton cap. The same is that Spiderman was intended not to exceed the 15 ton cap by Stan Lee. Otherwise handbook writers (who write the actual comics themselves and who consult with the original writers) wouldn't have consistently put him at 100 tons strength and spiderman at 10-15ton strength.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a comic character and not real life.
So are you implying the Spidey's spidersense isn't precog? 😆
Answer please!

If you find at least 1000 spiderman comics (from any years). I guarantee you that you will find at least 300 (and im underestimating)
scenes where he dodges super fast attacks such as bullets, energy, fists attacks from super power beings, etc.

Spidey has proven his spider-sense is precog a billion times. Not only has Marvel said it a million times in every handbook, marvel card, and website in existence, they have shown it constantly in the comics. Thus rendering what you said nonsense.

Yes spidey has been hit.
Yes Wolverine cut Thanos with bone claws.
Yes Cap has throw his shield faster than sound.
Yes spiderman beat firelord.
Yes Thor with superior reflexes let slow Juggs hit him.

Yes writers do bad writing.
Yes writers write characters not using the best of their abilities often.
Yes spidey sense is precog.

Remember the forum rules: Characters must use the best of their abilities. That means spidey has his spidersense.

What the hell are you on.

My entire statement was the effect: There are ways around the spidersense.

As captain america showed when he pounded on spiderman in civil war.

As ironman showed when he slammed into spiderman, you didn't see parker jump out of the way now did you.

As for the arguements of spiderman dodging bullets, fists, attack from superpowered beings, energy... you just described not only iron fist, but captain america, daredevil, gamora, wolverine, and countless others.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Tyson hits with 3000lbs. per square. but it doesn't mean that in general hi can hit with 6 tons force. If that was the case he would've been able to send an elephant fly.

What don't you understand about 3000lbs. per (or for each) square inch?
It is a square who has sides the length of an inch.
So at least 5 squares can cover his fist. You do the math.

You must understand something about give, impulse, momemtum, and hitting in a small area to know why the 6 ton elephant barely or doesn't move.

Originally posted by h1a8

You must don't know how handbooks are made by marvel. Take a look at this and go to "how character profile is done": http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:FAQ#How_do_you_go_about_writing_each_profile.3F

It explains that the writers (who themselves write the comics) read
"through the entry-subject's every appearance in chronological order, making notes of the significant data." It also explains that if there is any conflicting data then the handbook writers go to the original writers of that character and clarify the ruling situation.

Originally posted by h1a8
I believed you just embarrassed yourself. I'm pretty sure many here knows that a peak human (pro boxer) can hit with more than 1800lbs per square inch. It is a somewhat common fact. In which you can learn on the discovery channel about martial arts striking or the movie "Rocky IV".
Thus with more than 5 square inches of fist area you can clearly see that 4 tons is actually a nice estimate.

Show me a credible source that says a pro boxer can hit for 1800 PSI, it is actually closer to 800-1000 (this is common knowledge), a good Kickboxer can kick about 1600 PSI, so stop spreading that BS. You show you have zero clue about how force is measured.

Here is a link
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060814-fight-science_2.html

A pro boxer can punch for 1,000 pounds of impact force. And you are saying you can punch with 4 tons of force? yeah I believe you..... 🙄

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Namor can lift/punch way more then 100 tons, though. Try closer to 100,000-500,000 tons. 😬 He has literally moved the mass of islands and cities more then once.

The best Spidey has ever been able to lift/punch, under great stress is probably 50 tons. That would already make Namor 2000-10000 times stronger then Spider-Man.

Originally posted by h1a8
Okay
Imagine a rubber bullet that is fired at a tree stump.
After impact, the rubber bullet would bounce off with nearly the same momentum as it struck the stump with. Also with the same force by newtons 3rd law. Now say some unmovable object followed right behind the bullet while it traveled (like juggernaut's finger slightly touching the bullet from behind as it traveled-speedy juggs) So the bullet compresses to bounce off the tree with nearly the same force only to go into Juggs finger (which has no give) and thus compresses on Juggs finger to go back into the tree with almost the same momemtum at first strike. This is nearly double the force. Juggs finger plays the role of the force mirror.

So a strike from spiderman with his feet connected to an unmovable ground would cause his punch to be almost double in momemtum and force as was intially thrown.

Do you get it?

For the majority, on land, I'd say Spidey will get flung around as embarassingly as Wrecker tosses him around, but Spidey goin hardcore is not to be underestimated. I personally think he could give the Thing a real tough time since someone else made the comparison.

Spidey's spidey-sense/agility is much more potent against enemies that do not know his every power, ability and skill like Cap. To use Cap as a reference to downplay Spidey's agility is unfair. As far as I know, Namor has no intimate knowledge of Spidey and Spidey's quickness/precog will surprise even Namor. Another advantage is his ability to get people ticked off and unfocused (Namor is a clear candidate for that). And Spidey is smart to boot. Although he'd probably get the smart idea of trying to shock Namor and get reshocked himself and lose one out of ten, I think every person and their mother knows Namor is stronger in water and therefore, he would deduce some way of taking away his moisture and weakening him. Superhuman agility/precog + knack for making his opponents lose focus + Spidey's smarts and scientific insight in Namor's most exploitable weakness? I can see Spiderman buying some time, avoiding the monster hits and goading Namor into a trap a few times.

Hence, Namor 6/10. At this point, I've probably pissed off everyone in this thread, Spidey supporters and Namor supporters alike, so exit stage left...

Originally posted by thedude1948
Show me a credible source that says a pro boxer can hit for 1800 PSI, it is actually closer to 800-1000 (this is common knowledge), a good Kickboxer can kick about 1600 PSI, so stop spreading that BS. You show you have zero clue about how force is measured.

Here is a link
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060814-fight-science_2.html

A pro boxer can punch for 1,000 pounds of impact force. And you are saying you can punch with 4 tons of force? yeah I believe you..... 🙄

I think he means per square mile.
💃

Originally posted by h1a8

You must don't know how handbooks are made by marvel. Take a look at this and go to "how character profile is done": http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:FAQ#How_do_you_go_about_writing_each_profile.3F

It explains that the writers (who themselves write the comics) read
"through the entry-subject's every appearance in chronological order, making notes of the significant data." It also explains that if there is any conflicting data then the handbook writers go to the original writers of that character and clarify the ruling situation.

Sadly, I have already proven that they did not do so in Namor's case. Every single writer that has ever written Namor for longer then couple of issues has put him above Class 85 or just 100 tons. An d40 MPH flight speed is just ridicolous, even in the first comic he was in he outflew an airplane with ease.

Originally posted by h1a8

Also shame on you for not knowing that Spider has shown 40tons or more strength countless times. You are supposed to be a comic fan.
Go the spiderman's respeck page. They list several feats in which he lifted about 40tons of steel of his back, partially braced a multistory building (in which weighs hundreds of thousands of tons), etc. All these under great stress of course.

The Daily Bugle building? He only braced part of it, I believe this was stated on the scan itself.

Originally posted by h1a8
Beautiful! Very good reasoning there. I give you props there.
My defense to that is that flash isn't some dumb beam of light with no mind of his own. He can move and react so fast that time nearly stands still. Thus spidey is caught in a still frame in a dodging stance.
So spidey can't dodge him. But namor is nowhere even close to that speed. Namor looks at spidey, determines to swing in his mind, spidey's sense rings, namor swings, spidey dodges (spidey has already started to move before the intial frame of namor's animation).

Yes, but what if he throws second punch on the same time Spidey is in middle of dodging another? And while he is dodging the second, another follows. And another and another...meanwhile, Spider-Man also has to focus on doing damage to Namor. Whereas Namor doesn't even have to focus on defending himself, because his durability enables him to take dozens of punches from Spidey before even any actual damage is taken.

Originally posted by h1a8
Didn't I refute that?
Moving in evasion action to dodge lasers is what all can do (even me if im lucky).

And explain me again, why couldn't he dodge Spider-man's punches by moving in evasion?

And no. You can't dodge lasers from an entire firing squad who have been trained to do so, no matter what you want to believe.

Originally posted by h1a8
Namor taking the best IM punch without budging is laughable.
I would like to see that nonetheless.
That means that it is okay for bats to take high class 100 hits from evil enemies (who are tying to kill him) in the face. Which means that bats has superman's durability right? That means Namor's durability is far greater than Sentry's in which IM busted his nose with one hit.

Here.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3567/namorfeat1122jq.gif

Here is him taking a Mjolnir full shot straight in his head without even bleeding or breaking his bones.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2039/namorfeat367wt.gif

Here he takes full shot from Ultron who intended to kill him. Let me remind you that Ultron has broken the bones of Hulk with his blasts.
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5131/emperordoomgraphicnovel23pr3.jpg

Here he falls from space. His costume is the only thing that suffers any damage.
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat889cy.gif

Need anything else?

Originally posted by h1a8
If I was 1000 times stronger than me then my punches can be measured on the Richter scale too.

Maybe on the lower scale. Namor is in higher.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nope not really. Since that would mean that spiderman has close to class 100 strength. Cap has close to class 50 strength. Juggs is fast enough to hit Thor in the face without Thor being able to respond.

That's why the term PIS was created...those exmples you stated differ radically from the rest of the characters career.

Namor has always been able to fly faster then 40 MPH and lift more then 100 tons. Should I post different examples from ever different era from his comics just to shut you up here?

Originally posted by h1a8
Without consistentcy (in which the handbook gives), then comics would be in total chaos. Nothing would make sense.

There is consistency in comics.

Spider-man has always been able to dodge bullets, for example.

Namor has always been able to lift more then 100 tons.

And millions of similar things could be stated here, but I could save space.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes please!

I'll post it when I get home.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yet he doesn't show movement and is looking surprised.

Err...yes he does.

Originally posted by h1a8
0% movement. 100% surprised look on his face.

If you look at the first panel of the second scan, he is moving....

Originally posted by h1a8
Namor didn't make hundreds hand movements in a sec. If that was the case then we should see his hands at all in that scan but an undiscernable blur of fury.

So he sculpted an detailed sculpture with few hand movements?

Artists take freedom in stuff like that. Etc. the Gladiator thing.

Flash has similar things etc. where he mades an entire bridge in second, yet only twenty or so movements are shown. Just because they don't actually DRAW hundred movements on it, doesn't mean that they don't do so.

He still made an statue in a second, and that requires hundreds of hand movements. Nothing you can do tho change that.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have the comic but "Spider-Man: The Ultimate Guide" shows scans from a comic in which he fought Hulk and used the same punching speed (it looked a little faster though) as Namor but combined it will moving his body all around Hulk. He was a multiple blur why Hulk desperately swings in the wind (as the book explains). I didn't mean he sculpted a Hulk statue literally. Just that the way he is tagging the Hulk looks like he is sculpting him.

So, how is that similar to Namor's case? Namor actually did something that requires hundred or more hand movements, Spider-Man didn't...

Originally posted by h1a8
Wow! I never thought glads actually went through a star. Wiki and other very credible sources always said he just boasted about it and never actually showed it. I would like to see that scan if it is possible for you to scan or direct me to it.

When it comes to comics...Wiki usually isn't credible...

And here...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b97/Jonathanos/Gladiator/GladStar.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
It didn't say a few seconds. It could be at least a minute for all we know.

But if you actually look at the picture and consider the situation in hand, it can't be a minute.

Originally posted by h1a8
I have never seen namor move faster than spidey. Sorry, but many would disagree with you here. I admit though, he can move very close to spidey's speed.

I have. The aforementioned sculpting thing.

And I don't think he is faster. But in pure movement speed, he is equal. In dodging, Spider-Man takes the win because

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes they do. But that is why we must go on the writer's intentions as well (In which is what you implied). Marvel writers not only know that Namor is 100tons strength but they continue to write it in hanbooks (since the beginning more than 30 years) and at their official website. Obviously Namor was intended (by original writer) not to exceed the 100 ton cap. The same is that Spiderman was intended not to exceed the 15 ton cap by Stan Lee. Otherwise handbook writers (who write the actual comics themselves and who consult with the original writers) wouldn't have consistently put him at 100 tons strength and spiderman at 10-15ton strength.

The comic book writers and creators do not write handbooks.

And Bill Everett, guy who created Namor had him lift an tanker. If he did not intend to have Namor lift more then 100 tons, why did he have him do so regulary? Same with other writers.

Just because some random handbook guy who sure as hell did not study Namor (40 MPH flight speed to the guy who regulary outspeeds fighter jets...) put Class 85 to Namor, doesn't mean that the WRITING OF HIS ACTUAL CREATOR is wrong. In fact, the handbooks are wrong. Especially when Namor has lifted more then 100 tons before AND after handbooks were created.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Errr. I've read through your respect thread once. I don't remember seeing anything that clearly shows he can lift that kind of weight. I've seen him brace sunken oil tankers while in the water (remember bouyancy also!) and shaken an island with a double fist pound, whose momentum was reinforced by a magnetic pull downwards, but him lifting 500,000 tons? Some of your scans show him having trouble lifting 50 tons in one hand on land. Maybe newer scans I haven't seen?

Boyucany doesn't apply really when immense water pressure is also considered. And momentum didn't really apply to the Magneto case either, it wasn't mentioned at all. Namor did it under his own strength.

And here is the new respect thread.
http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100333

The bottle thing, for example is one feat where he moves hundreds of thousands of tons with his punches.

Lifting might be different, but if was talking about both lifting and punching.