Originally posted by snoopdogg
Start showing this around. I was gonna make a thread with that information you showed. The handbook writers are not random people they pick up off the street.
Compared to comic writers, they are. In many bios, you can clearly see that if they have done any research at all, the research has been f*cked up.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Compared to comic writers, they are. In many bios, you can clearly see that if they have done any research at all, the research has been f*cked up.
DC,
I give you mad props.That is why in this post I will try to be as objective as I possibly can.
You say a lot of things that make sense. But you must realize that sometimes we all have bias (sometimes without knowing it).
I say this because sometimes I am guilty of it and so are you.
You have exaggerated (maybe not intentionally) many things you have said. For example, you used the word "regularly" when that is not true at all. Namor has over maybe 1000 appearances. Yet of the few credible strength feats he has shown I and many can soundly disagree that he does such things regularly.
Many (not all though) of the scans you have shown are arguable. Please believe me for I will not lie to you here.
But a very few that you have shown does show what you are saying.
You have to admit that sometimes it is very hard to determined what is PIS and what is not. There seems to be no easy way. For many have their own unique twists on what PIS should be. Some here think that 2 or 3 occurences out of more than 1000 is enough to not be PIS (or SmvFL).
I would like for you to answer a question for me. Please try to answer as honestly as you can. It will show great respect if you try to answer as honestly as you can. Here goes:
If Namor has shown that he regularly lifts over 100tons then why do you think that he has been listed as 85 on up to 100tons for all these years, even today?
Yes handbooks do change. Corrections and updates are always made. For example, in an earlier edition of OHOTMU, Juggs strength was listed as 90tons. But in later editions they changed it to class 100 (or incalculable). Thanos was also super human class 100 before (lift up to 100tons). They later changed this (maybe after he received an upgrade-I don't know) to class 100 (or incalculable). Spiderman even received an update from 10tons to 15tons (Today it is 20tons or unknown limit due to an upgrade).
Did you ever write to Marvel concerning Namor's strength?
If so, did you ask them why for all these years (since the beginning) why haven't they updated him to class 100 when they clearly go through his entire history of comics to update his profile.
And yes, some (not all) handbook writers are actual comic book writers.
Originally posted by h1a8
DC,
I give you mad props.That is why in this post I will try to be as objective as I possibly can.
You say a lot of things that make sense. But you must realize that sometimes we all have bias (sometimes without knowing it).
I say this because sometimes I am guilty of it and so are you.
You have exaggerated (maybe not intentionally) many things you have said. For example, you used the word "regularly" when that is not true at all. Namor has over maybe 1000 appearances. Yet of the few credible strength feats he has shown I and many can soundly disagree that he does such things regularly.
Many (not all though) of the scans you have shown are arguable. Please believe me for I will not lie to you here.
But a very few that you have shown does show what you are saying.
You have to admit that sometimes it is very hard to determined what is PIS and what is not. There seems to be no easy way. For many have their own unique twists on what PIS should be. Some here think that 2 or 3 occurences out of more than 1000 is enough to not be PIS (or SmvFL).
The fact just is, every time he has NEEDED to lift more then 100 tons, he has done it. Most Class 100's don't have more lifting feats either.
Originally posted by h1a8
I would like for you to answer a question for me. Please try to answer as honestly as you can. It will show great respect if you try to answer as honestly as you can. Here goes:If Namor has shown that he [B]regularly
lifts over 100tons then why do you think that he has been listed as 85 on up to 100tons for all these years, even today? [/B]
Handbook mistake which they have been too lazy to correct. Like said before, under every writer, Namor has shown that he can lift over 100 tons when the need has came.
Originally posted by h1a8
Yes handbooks do change. Corrections and updates are always made. For example, in an earlier edition of OHOTMU, Juggs strength was listed as 90tons. But in later editions they changed it to class 100 (or incalculable). Thanos was also super human class 100 before (lift up to 100tons). They later changed this (maybe after he received an upgrade-I don't know) to class 100 (or incalculable). Spiderman even received an update from 10tons to 15tons (Today it is 20tons or unknown limit due to an upgrade).Did you ever write to Marvel concerning Namor's strength?
If so, did you ask them why for all these years (since the beginning) why haven't they updated him to class 100 when they clearly go through his entire history of comics to update his profile.
Except that they clearly haven't done so. Why else he would be listed as 40 mph flight speed, when his speed has NEVER been that low? 60 mph swimming speed when EVERY TIME he swims he swims faster then that? 85 tons lifting strength when he has ALWAYS been able to lift more then that when he has had to?
Can YOU tell me, where did they base these stats? Because they clearly have been lifted out of a hat.
Originally posted by h1a8
And yes, some (not all) handbook writers are actual comic book writers.
Most are not. And the guy who wrote Namor's bio certainly wasn't.
They are just single humans who make (a lot) mistakes.
And like said before, comics are higher canon then handbooks.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
The fact just is, every time he has NEEDED to lift more then 100 tons, he has done it. Most Class 100's don't have more lifting feats either.
Handbook mistake which they have been too lazy to correct. Like said before, under every writer, Namor has shown that he can lift over 100 tons when the need has came.False. You should know that laziness is the last thing they are guilty of. They have looked through his entire history and consulted with his original writer(s).
Except that they clearly haven't done so. Why else he would be listed as 40 mph flight speed, when his speed has NEVER been that low? 60 mph swimming speed when EVERY TIME he swims he swims faster then that? 85 tons lifting strength when he has ALWAYS been able to lift more then that when he has had to?
Can YOU tell me, where did they base these stats? Because they clearly have been lifted out of a hat.
Of course they didn't. This would go against the many corrections and upgrades (when a character has been upgraded in the comic-like thanos) they have done and the fact that they consult with the original writers when any discrepencies show up in their entire history of comics (in which they base their rulings on).
[QUOTE]They are just single humans who make (a lot) mistakes.
QUOTE]
So do writers. Most don't even know how much something weighs and how fast things are (especially in the old days).
Yes handbook writers make mistakes (most are not power level related but history related). Yet they constently correct them. And since the beginning of handbooks they only once changed Namor from 85tons to 100tons (contact with water). Showing that they have been doing some actual research and consultation.
Namor isn't the only character to exceed his so called limits. Every character has. That is why Marvel's handbook writers look for consistency throughout their career (not just from the beginning). I and others here are not convinced that Marvel writers intentionally want Namor to exceed the 100ton mark.
Why don't you write Marvel concerning this? You haven't answered this.
Try to see what they think.
Originally posted by long pig
Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.
You mean notoriously good. He has endured things that will instantly tear a human to pieces like paper.
But none of that shows that Namor will actually hit Spidey.
Originally posted by long pig
Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.
... 😑
Please go look at the whole Spider-man Respect thread. Then come back here and say he is "only slightly more durable than a normal human".
Originally posted by h1a8
So has spidey and others who exceed their handbook limits.
Doesn't make them stronger now does it?
Yes, but to Namor it is REGULAR in comics. EVERY writer has wrote him as Class 100, including his creator.
Can't really fight the facts.
Originally posted by h1a8
False. You should know that laziness is the last thing they are guilty of. They have looked through his entire history and consulted with his original writer(s).
That's kind of hard, isn't it.
Bill Everett, Namor's creator, DIED before the first handbook was even created.
And Bill Everett wrote Namor as Class 100 in his latest writings.
Bill Everett's word >>>>>>>>> Any handbook writer's word.
Because you know, he...created the character.
Originally posted by h1a8
I have never seen anywhere canon where his flight speed is 40mph.
I've seen somewhere (not canon though) that his max flight speed is 60mph.
But tires quickly flying at that speed.
Except that is false too, as no writer has ever wrote Namor as that speed.
Originally posted by h1a8
Of course they didn't. This would go against the many corrections and upgrades (when a character has been upgraded in the comic-like thanos) they have done and the fact that they consult with the original writers when any discrepencies show up in their entire history of comics (in which they base their rulings on).
Yeah, they did. Just look at the bio and compare it to Namor's comic career. And they clearly didn't consult any of Namor's writers, because of the obvious mistakes in the bio.
Originally posted by h1a8
So do writers. Most don't even know how much something weighs and how fast things are (especially in the old days).
Yes handbook writers make mistakes (most are not power level related but history related). Yet they constently correct them. And since the beginning of handbooks they only once changed Namor from 85tons to 100tons (contact with water). Showing that they have been doing some actual research and consultation.
Creators of characters can't really make mistakes with their own character. Writers of characters can increase the power of their character if they wish to do so.
If you wish, I can give you example of 99% of the writers Namor has ever had writing at least one Class 100 feat, flying faster then 40 MPH, and swimming faster then 60 MPH.
You know what that is called? Consistency.
Originally posted by h1a8
Namor isn't the only character to exceed his so called limits. Every character has. That is why Marvel's handbook writers look for consistency throughout their career (not just from the beginning). I and others here are not convinced that Marvel writers intentionally want Namor to exceed the 100ton mark.
*sigh* If they look at consistency, "Why else he would be listed as 40 mph flight speed, when his speed has NEVER been that low? 60 mph swimming speed when EVERY TIME he swims he swims faster then that? 85 tons lifting strength when he has ALWAYS been able to lift more then that when he has had to?"
And you are the only guy here who believes that Namor still can't lift more then 100 tons, sorry.
Originally posted by h1a8
Why don't you write Marvel concerning this? You haven't answered this.
Try to see what they think.
Oh, I write Marvel all the time about different stuff. Seeing as they recieve hundreds, maybe thousands of e-mails every day, I doubt that they have time to answer my questions (haven't answered thus far). But hey, I'll try if it makes you happy.
Hey, maybe I could contact Bill Everett with a spirit medium? I mean, that is obviously what the handbook writers did according to you...
Originally posted by h1a8
You mean notoriously good. He has endured things that will instantly tear a human to pieces like paper.
But none of that shows that Namor will actually hit Spidey.
Cap actually may be more durable.
Spiderman can be stabbed by a pocket knife weilding 5 year old, he can be shot with a bb gun and bleed, he can fall down steps and break his arm. It's stupid how shit-crack durability he has.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
... 😑Please go look at the whole Spider-man Respect thread. Then come back here and say he is "only slightly more durable than a normal human".
Spiderman's durabiltiy SUCKS and one good punch from Namor would splatter him.
Originally posted by long pig
No, I mean notoriously bad. As in very bad. As in shitty. As in hardly above Captain America's.Cap actually may be more durable.
Spiderman can be stabbed by a pocket knife weilding 5 year old, he can be shot with a bb gun and bleed, he can fall down steps and break his arm. It's stupid how shit-crack durability he has.
I have, and he's no more durable than Cap. He only looks durable because he rolls with punches. If I were to punch spidey in the nose with brass knuckles, he'd bleed.
Spiderman's durabiltiy SUCKS and one good punch from Namor would splatter him.
Arg. I'm not arguing that Namor will lose. If you'll notice my previous posts in this thread, I said (pretty clearly, too) that Namor wins.
However, I don't like Spidey's durability being bad-mouthed.
When Cap withstands blows like these or appears anywhere near this durable, lemme know.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-scorpion1-cropped.jpg
-And Scorpion is stronger and more durable than Spider-Man as well. Keep that in mind.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-crimemaster1-combi.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-contender1-combi.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-misterfear-cropped.jpg
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Arg. I'm not arguing that Namor will lose. If you'll notice my previous posts in this thread, I said (pretty clearly, too) that Namor wins.However, I don't like Spidey's durability being bad-mouthed.
When Cap withstands blows like these or appears anywhere near this durable, lemme know.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-scorpion1-cropped.jpg
-And Scorpion is stronger and more durable than Spider-Man as well. Keep that in mind.http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-crimemaster1-combi.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-contender1-combi.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-misterfear-cropped.jpg
I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.
Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife.
😑
Wow, sorry to say this but you must have not read many Spidey comics.
I'm going to make this huge-ass Spider-Man Respect thread (already got about 900 scans and I am only halfway through), and there are some pretty damn impressive Spidey durability feats there. Basically, he is like brick wall. Normal humans usually break their hands punching him (unless they are superheroes), and even Scorpion said that hitting Spider-Man feels like hitting a bulldozer.
Here is one example, Green Goblin III who has no superhuman strength punches Spidey as hard as he can multiple times and Spidey just talks and feels nothing.
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8590/feat14durabilityye0.jpg
I can post a lot more too, like all his fights with Hulk and other people. But Spider-Man is defenitely more durable then Cap. I've never really seen Cap not even budge when hit by someone. Like this:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5453/feat32durabilitypi7.jpg
Originally posted by long pig
Cap has taken blows harder than those many times, he's been punched by Thanos, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Wonderman, Thunderstrike etc.I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.
Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife.
Like DarkCrawler said, go read some Spider-Man comics then.
He's taken blows from Hulk, Juggernaut, Morlun, Rhino, Sandman, Doc Ock, Absorbing Man, Firelord, Venom, Carnage, Wrecker, etc., etc.
Originally posted by long pig
Cap has taken blows harder than those many times, he's been punched by Thanos, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Wonderman, Thunderstrike etc.I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.
Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife.
😆 Cap is human. cap is enhanced human. The perfect athlete.
He is as fast as a human can possibly be, he is as strong as as human can possibly be. His durability levels enable him to take as much punishment as a human can possibly can. Stamina , endurance , reflexes
apply in the same way. There are humans that can lift 1 ton of weight probably not over their head but off the ground none the less. The highest potential a normal human can possibly reach in any of the categories above determines what Caps limits can be.
Originally posted by python99
😆 Cap is human. cap is enhanced human. The perfect athlete.
He is as fast as a human can possibly be, he is as strong as as human can possibly be. His durability levels enable him to take as much punishment as a human can possibly can. Stamina , endurance , reflexes
apply in the same way. There are humans that can lift 1 ton of weight probably not over their head but off the ground none the less. The highest potential a normal human can possibly reach in any of the categories above determines what Caps limits can be.
Originally posted by DarkCrawlerI believe bouyancy absolutely applies. Because immense water pressure does not push down towards gravity, it comes in on all sides, therefore buoyancy counts for a heck of a lot. I mean, just think about when you're in a swimming pool and you can stand on your big toe. You try that out in the air, and you're gonna break that big toe.
Boyucany doesn't apply really when immense water pressure is also considered. And momentum didn't really apply to the Magneto case either, it wasn't mentioned at all. Namor did it under his own strength.And here is the new respect thread.
http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100333The bottle thing, for example is one feat where he moves hundreds of thousands of tons with his punches.
Lifting might be different, but if was talking about both lifting and punching.
Immense water pressure has to do with durability, of which Namor has in spades when he is in the water, but bouyancy still accounts for quite a bit. And I still don't understand how this accounts for how Namor would fight in land. You seem to point out in your respect threads, that Namor in the water is extremely enhanced. Therefore, vice-versa, he is still strong, but has nowhere near the capacity that he does in the water.
I think that on land, he's 100 ton lifter at best, since many of those Bill Russell scans show that he has an incredibly tough time (in Namor's own words) lifting 50 tons in one hand. Perhaps, what I am really asking is, on land, how strong do you believe Namor is?
P.S. The respect thread is too long, I don't know where that bottle thingy is you referred to.
Originally posted by long pig
Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.
Can't agree with you on that one. Spideys been hit by rhino and hulk and lived to teel about it....... plus all this spidey losing easily crap is on my nerves. Dont forget this is the same guy who beat firelord and jumped the whole xmen......... with that said however he s going to have a tough time with namor
Originally posted by fsufan89
Can't agree with you on that one. Spideys been hit by rhino and hulk and lived to teel about it....... plus all this spidey losing easily crap is on my nerves. Dont forget this is the same guy who beat firelord and jumped the whole xmen......... with that said however he s going to have a tough time with namor
both of those examples were PIS.
how ever I do agree spidy will give namor hell
