how many times do i have to say it? Vader is far stronger than presuit vader because 1) he has greater skill in djem so 2) he learns alot of things from the most powerful sith lord ever and he wields tremendous powers in the dark side 3) it has been proven he is an extremely skilled dueslist by abeling to fend of 8 jedi masters at once and blow back a thug 50m in empire vol1
and lastly he would know what anakins strategy is because he himself was once anakin and he will be able to detect his predesessors flaws and mistakes and use them to his advantage
how many times do i have to say it? Vader is far stronger than presuit vader because 1) he has greater skill in djem so 2) he learns alot of things from the most powerful sith lord ever and he wields tremendous powers in the dark side 3) it has been proven he is an extremely skilled dueslist by abeling to fend of 8 jedi masters at once and blow back a thug 50m in empire vol1and lastly he would know what anakins strategy is because he himself was once anakin and he will be able to detect his predesessors flaws and mistakes and use them to his advantage
Yes, I know Vader's credentials. He is much stronger in the Force. However, even if he 'might' know Anakin's strategy, how can he prevent it?
I would say that Darth Vader’s Djem So is perhaps only slightly more advanced than Anakin’s. You remember Darth Tyrannus in the ROTS novelization where he remarks about how Anakin was the ““greatest Djem So user he ever saw.”” You read that Anakin has mastered Djem So to a very high degree. We see Vader in the movies and I would not say any of his Djem So techniques surpass Anakin’s, but since Vader has trained in many lightsaber forms, I would concede that he is a bit better in Djem So.
The main obstacle for Darth Vader is Anakin’s speed. Anakin is very fast. Vader has not the agility to match Anakin. Along with his Djem So, Anakin will be able to land many attacks in Vader. And note that Djem So gives damaging attacks, therefore Darth Vader’s suit won’t last long to the lightsaber blows he is given.
In addition, while Vader does use anger, he is more calm. ROTS Vader uses rage, he literally feeds of it. And you know that the Dark Side powers you up even more. Anakin is very strong.
I am unclear whether who wins between Vader and ROTS Anakin/Vader, but I know for sure that Vader cannot "would woop anakins ass fast"
Please, Kadesh.
RotS Anakin/Vader and OT Vader have a lot of differences, true. OT Vader is more powerful in the Force - simply because of the two decades he had to hone his skill and master the dark side under the Emperor's training.
But, to say that Vader would conquer Anakin with minimal difficulty is a completely ridiculous assertion.
We've seen what happens when Vader fights someone who is more agile or faster than him. In the suit, his mobility is pathetic compared to RotS Anakin/Vader's own. Yes, his strength - due to the mechanized suit - has increased, but what good will it do him when his opponent is out of range, or constantly on the move? Vader's strikes are powerful - but they are slow.
Likewise, Rise of Darth Vader explains that when Anakin was in rage, the Force did grant him feats of superhuman strength and flurry. So, he is capable of being as strong as Vader. The difference is - Anakin's physical strength increases only in bursts.
If it ends up in a saber fight, let me assure you that Vader will lose - likely. Count Dooku (like OT Vader) had more experience and a greater mastery of the Force than Anakin, but was simply unable to handle Anakin's raw power and wrath. In RotS, Dooku was unable to attack Anakin with the Force due to the onslaught he was facing.
Take RotJ for example. The moment that Vader mentioned turning Leia to the dark side, and Luke went into Pissed-Off Mode, the fight was over. Vader, like Dooku was more experienced - and by all rights - more powerful, but could not handle Luke's wrath. Luke battered Vader all up and down the throne room.
If it gets to a saber fight, I give OT Vader the same time I'd give Dooku: which isn't long.
However, OT Vader can secure a win by using his superior Force powers and ability to manipulate environments into play. But he'd have to do all that before Anakin gets close.
Originally posted by Escape81Firstly, if he was that slow, he would not have been able to fend of 8 jedi masters at once during the purged, he was able to choke 1 while holding off 3 other jedi masters, Slow? then he would have diedWe've seen what happens when Vader fights someone who is more agile or faster than him. In the suit, his mobility is pathetic compared to RotS Anakin/Vader's own. Yes, his strength - due to the mechanized suit - has increased, but what good will it do him when his opponent is out of range, or constantly on the move? Vader's strikes are powerful - but they are slow.
Originally posted by Escape81Yes true but anakin goes crazy, he cant stop to think and that was his downfall in ROTS, vader on the other hand calls upon the dark side while being calm and not going amok, i suggest you read this He apparently learned his lesson from his duel with Kenobi, learning how to control his emotions when in combat and finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.Likewise, Rise of Darth Vader explains that when Anakin was in rage, the Force did grant him feats of superhuman strength and flurry. So, he [B]is
capable of being as strong as Vader. The difference is - Anakin's physical strength increases only in bursts.
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Originally posted by Escape81Let me assure you that you are wrong. firstly having raw power doesnt mean you will win 100%. And in a saber duel vader loses?If it ends up in a saber fight, let me assure you that Vader will lose - likely. Count Dooku (like OT Vader) had more experience and a greater mastery of the Force than Anakin, but was simply unable to handle Anakin's raw power and wrath. In RotS, Dooku was unable to attack Anakin with the Force due to the onslaught he was facing.
Originally posted by Escape81Thats because luke mirrored vaders own form of djem so, And when 1 strikes first with the same fighting style, the other goes down, that proves how powerful djem so can be and doesnt this give vader the advantage because he is simply stronger than anakin?Take RotJ for example. The moment that Vader mentioned turning Leia to the dark side, and Luke went into Pissed-Off Mode, the fight was over. Vader, like Dooku was more experienced - and by all rights - more powerful, but could [B]not
handle Luke's wrath. Luke battered Vader all up and down the throne room.
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Originally posted by Escape81Read the above about the phrase, That changes everything you say about anakin > vader in saber combat, yes in the force vader would finish anakin, why? because grip and crush are instant, There is no waiting time when executing these powers and anakin doesnt have any defence against crush. Vaders force crush has been proven to be devastating, in Eaw he could destry tanks with it and his force wave could kill dozens of soldiers.However, OT Vader can secure a win by using his superior Force powers and ability to manipulate environments into play. But he'd have to do all that before Anakin gets close.
Firstly, if he was that slow, he would not have been able to fend of 8 jedi masters at once during the purged, he was able to choke 1 while holding off 3 other jedi masters, Slow? then he would have died
You didn't read; I said that his mobility was pathetic compared to Anakin's. Which, hate to tell you, is the honest-to-God absolute truth. Anakin is more agile and faster than Vader. Accept it and let's move on.
Yes true but anakin goes crazy, he cant stop to think and that was his downfall in ROTS, vader on the other hand calls upon the dark side while being calm and not going amok, i suggest you read this He apparently learned his lesson from his duel with Kenobi, learning how to control his emotions when in combat and finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.
That was against Kenobi. His once trusted friend, whom he believes turned his beloved wife against him. That's not to say that he's going to become a walking stick of dynomite to anyone. Then, you have to factor in that Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than anyone else, and was also a master of the defensive lightsaber form, which enabled him to withstand Anakin's wrath - and even then - he was forced to give ground.
Let me assure you that you are wrong. firstly having raw power doesnt mean you will win 100%. And in a saber duel vader loses?
wrong, he is more skillful.
Tell that to Dooku's headless body on Invisible Hand. Dooku had more experience and skill than anyone in the series except for Yoda and Sidious - and Anakin cut through that like butter. Unless your Obi-Wan, in Anakin's case, raw power does almost always equate to one hundred percent victory.
let me prove this to you
Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match. Yout think this is rubbish? the game JA backs this phrase up.
The hell? Means jack. OT Vader was wounded by ESB Luke, due to his lack of mobility. ESB Luke isn't exactly a heavy weight in any sense of the word. Droids =/= Force using combatants.
Therefore vader > anakin in saber combat
Wrong.
Thats because luke mirrored vaders own form of djem so, And when 1 strikes first with the same fighting style, the other goes down, that proves how powerful djem so can be and doesnt this give vader the advantage because he is simply stronger than anakin?
No. It's because Luke was empowered by the dark side. His onslaught knocked Vader off his guard. When that happened, he battered him around like a freakin' punching bag. Didn't change the fact that Vader had more lifting strength, and was physically more powerful - he just couldn't stop Luke's fury.
And, no, it doesn't give Vader the advantage - because RotS Vader is stronger than RotJ Luke - and RotJ Luke put OT Vader on his ass, when he was empowered by the dark side.
Read the above about the phrase, That changes everything you say about anakin > vader in saber combat, yes in the force vader would finish anakin, why? because grip and crush are instant, There is no waiting time when executing these powers and anakin doesnt have any defence against crush. Vaders force crush has been proven to be devastating, in Eaw he could destry tanks with it and his force wave could kill dozens of soldiers.
And yes i give credit to eaw, why? because it doesnt contradict anything about vaders power
I'm thinking that if Vader could crush tanks, instantly, he'd have squashed those eight Jedi Knights in Purge without any difficulty, instead of being carved open like a joint of beef. Games aren't canon.
OT Vader > RotS Anakin in mastery, refinement, and control of the Force, but that means jack unless he can use it before Anakin is all over him.
Originally posted by Escape81
You didn't read; I said that his mobility was pathetic [B]compared to Anakin's. Which, hate to tell you, is the honest-to-God absolute truth. Anakin is more agile and faster than Vader. Accept it and let's move on.[/B]
Originally posted by Escape81And vader simply knows himself better than obi wan knows him right?
That was against Kenobi. His once trusted friend, whom he believes turned his beloved wife against him. That's not to say that he's going to become a walking stick of dynomite to anyone. Then, you have to factor in that Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than anyone else, and was also a master of the defensive lightsaber form, which enabled him to withstand Anakin's wrath - and even then - he was forced to give ground.
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Originally posted by Escape81So does that mean FP anakin > lotf luke? i dont think so.
Tell that to Dooku's headless body on Invisible Hand. Dooku had more experience and skill than anyone in the series except for Yoda and Sidious - and Anakin cut through that like butter. Unless your Obi-Wan, in Anakin's case, raw power does almost always equate to one hundred percent victory.
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Originally posted by Escape81Firstly vader was toying around with ESB luke and could have killed him from the very start, he underestimated luke which is why he got hit from his lightsaber.
The hell? Means jack. OT Vader was wounded by ESB Luke, due to his lack of mobility. ESB Luke isn't exactly a heavy weight in any sense of the word. Droids =/= Force using combatants.
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Originally posted by Escape81Correct
Wrong.
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Originally posted by Escape81The same can happen to anakin provided vader makes the first move. Already please read that phrase i posted, it is enough to prove that vader can > anakin and > dooku in saber combat
No. It's because Luke was empowered by the dark side. His onslaught knocked Vader off his guard. When that happened, he battered him around like a freakin' punching bag. Didn't change the fact that Vader had more lifting strength, and was physically more powerful - he just couldn't stop Luke's fury. [/B]
Originally posted by Escape81And now your using a>b>c when it is illogical at this point,
And, no, it doesn't give Vader the advantage - because RotS Vader is stronger than RotJ Luke - and RotJ Luke put OT Vader on his ass, when he was empowered by the dark side.
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Originally posted by Escape81
I'm thinking that if Vader could crush tanks, instantly, he'd have squashed those eight Jedi Knights in Purge without any difficulty, instead of being carved open like a joint of beef. Games aren't canon.
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O wait games arent canon? so kotor is not canon then is it? Vader did demonstrate crush, remember ROTS after he heard padme died? And he did demonstrated it many times in the EU
Cyborg or OT Darth Vader is more powerful then before. He has two advantages:
1) Great Strength.
2) More Mastery of the force.
- Greater strength enhances your "Over-powering" potential in melee fights. Still some people here think that Strength is not an important factor in fights but this is wrong assumption. Better physical conditions always increase your fighting efficiency.
- And more mastery in force will make fights easier to win against less powerful opponents.
ROTS Vader has more agility but that is not sufficient advantage against an opponent with much greater strength.
Additionally, OT Vader also uses "Djem form" like Anakin so Anakin does not holds any advantage over him in Saber Combat as well.
So, with these two advantages at hand, OT Vader has better chance to defeat his ROTS appearance or ROTS Vader.
And Luke vs OT Vader arguement is useless because OT Vader was his father and he did not wanted to kill him but actually wanted to turn him to Dark Side. And this was clearly evident because OT Vader was more defensive in that fight.
ROTS Anakin is over-hyped.
Originally posted by Council#13
Obi-Wan beat Anakin, but he didn't manage to beat Dooku, who was killed by Anakin.
So, Dooku used his greater mastery of the force to his advantage against Obi-Wan during his fight against him in ROTS and removed his threat quickly so that he won't be able to create any trouble for Dooku when facing Anakin.
But Dooku's under-estimation of Anakin would cost him dearly as he soon realized his mistake when fighting against Anakin as Anakin was a more over-powering opponent but it was too late by then.
If Dooku had taken Anakin very seriously from start then he would have won the fight.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDExactly, i applaud you on this point
Cyborg or OT Darth Vader is more powerful then before. He has two advantages:1) Great Strength.
2) More Mastery of the force.- Greater strength enhances your "Over-powering" potential in melee fights. Still some people here think that Strength is not an important factor in fights but this is wrong assumption. Better physical conditions always increase your fighting efficiency.
- And more mastery in force will make fights easier to win against less powerful opponents.
ROTS Vader has more agility but that is not sufficient advantage against an opponent with much greater strength.
Additionally, OT Vader also uses "Djem form" like Anakin so Anakin does not holds any advantage over him in Saber Combat as well.
So, with these two advantages at hand, OT Vader has better chance to defeat his ROTS appearance or ROTS Vader.
And Luke vs OT Vader arguement is useless because OT Vader was his father and he did not wanted to kill him but actually wanted to turn him to Dark Side. And this was clearly evident because OT Vader was more defensive in that fight.
ROTS Anakin is over-hyped.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku always took Obi-Wan more seriously then Anakin in fights because he considered him to be more powerful and experienced then Anakin as even Yoda held Obi-Wan in very high esteem.So, Dooku used his greater mastery of the force to his advantage against Obi-Wan during his fight against him in ROTS and removed his threat quickly so that he won't be able to create any trouble for Dooku when facing Anakin.
But Dooku's under-estimation of Anakin would cost him dearly as he soon realized his mistake when fighting against Anakin as Anakin was a more over-powering opponent but it was too late by then.
If Dooku had taken Anakin very seriously from start then he would have won the fight.
You're right, according to the novelization he did realize that Anakin's Djem So would be too strong for his Makashi. But even as he tried to change tactics, he still lost. The form that seems to be most effective against Makashi seems to be Djem So.
Shien and Djem So are practically the same thing. Dooku knows how to kill someone who uses Ataru. He was just about to employ this technique when Obi-Wan switched to Soresou in the novelization. Vaapad, we don't know, but according to Mace's bio on the Official Star Wars website, Dooku has beaten Mace before in combat. This was probably after Mace's creation of Vaapad, as he was most likely on the Council at this time.
Hey, Dooku's good! 😉
n his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.
Each of us could interpret that our own way, but I see it as despite the fact that he had Vaapad, he still won.