I didn't mean to ruffle anybody's feathers. Or upset anybody.
I was just trying to help make sense of a continuity mess that has effected how people see storylines, characters, artifacts and realms that they are very involved with.
There is nothing wrong with people caring about hobbies and literature, (even Comic Books). Nothing wrong with sticking up for your favorites, as long as it doesn't get too personal.
No offense was meant to anybody. Proceed.
I will just watch.
Originally posted by Supreme being
🙄 Perhaps you should show some respect, people obviously have their religions and beliefs and even though its clear your not a believer bear in mind that others on this forum are. And anyone creating a thread with Jesus in it is obviously looking for some controversy and such comments such as "i drink jesus sperm futher add to that conclusion".
1) When did I disrespect anyone on the Comic Book forums ?
2) Controversy ? Please..... 🙄 Lucifer Morningstar VS Jesus Christ (who actually DID appear in comic book mini series for your info) would have been a great debate, considering the two characters are HEAVILY related through the mythologies of which they derive, if it weren't for religious bias being involved.
3)I drink Jesus' Sperm....So......What ?
Originally posted by Horrificus
I didn't mean to ruffle anybody's feathers. Or upset anybody.
I was just trying to help make sense of a continuity mess that has effected how people see storylines, characters, artifacts and realms that they are very involved with.There is nothing wrong with people caring about hobbies and literature, (even Comic Books). Nothing wrong with sticking up for your favorites, as long as it doesn't get too personal.
No offense was meant to anybody. Proceed.
I will just watch.
No, no...
Feel free to speak your mind. Just understand though that although scientific or personal philosophy is always welcome, (even religion is welcome), you cannot count those things as factual arguments in a comic book debate.
That's all.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Just because Reality is titled in Marvel "Universe" instead of Multi-verse or "Eternity instead of Multi-Eternity, doesn't necessarily mean it's referring to ONE Universe.
and it doesn't necessarily mean it DOESN'T. 😄
ahhhh . . . the irony. 😂
i recall quite vividly bringing those self-same defenders' scans to bear AGAINST you to prove the EXACT OPPOSITE POINT to the one you're trying to make with them! i showed those scans originally to try and show you that there IS no (pardon the pun . . .) "universal" terminology dealing with the concepts you/we are dealing with. you are now saying that dormammu -- a dimensional lord whom strange himself and alone has whooped multiple times -- had the power to walk up to multi-eternity and kill him/it??
i will have to disagree with that, i'm afraid. the fact that dormmy named eternity a multiverse just goes to show how fluid the terminology is. eternity DOES comprise a host of dimensions/realities/"pocket" universes (which the dark dimension itself is said to be)/etc . . . in that sense, he IS multiversal because dimensions can also be termed universes in some cases and realities in some cases. the terminology depends entirely upon the writer. do you honestly think i guy like dormmamu walks up to multi-eternity and just . . . kills him?
in your explanation of the IG you said lt didn't have a problem with what was happening in 616 because it was confined to OUR universe. but you think he'd have been fine with letting dormmamu just . . . remake EVERYTHING?
your defense will be "on-panel evidence clearly supports my interpretation as it says 'multiverse' right on the page." and you're obviously right. it DOES say multiverse. but using your idea of looking at the whole story, it's clear to me only "616" eternity was intended. and it's not on-panel evidence that should be the be-all-end-all in a debate. the context of said evidence should be the be-all-end-all. and there is no surrounding context and no logical explanation that i can imagine that would rationally explain away dormmamu's being able to walk up to kill multi-eternity AND assume his role as the multiverse's life-force.
Originally posted by Horrificus
The point is, that it isn't MY philosphy. Maybe you should look into some of the stuff you have these people believing in here.
They're believing stuff that's all BACKED UP by ON PANEL PROOF,
where are you getting your Information from?
Originally posted by Horrificus
I was just looking at arguements that are based on OPINIONS and CREATIVE FREEDOMS of some writers, and trying to give some perspective that is based in FACT that might help explain things a bit.
None of what you said was FACT, except for that Eternity started out as a single Universe,
but that was WAYYYYYYYY back in the day, (1967 is the first time we see the Universe in full, it was just an Infinite number of GALAXIES then)
before Marvel expanded it's Universe into a Multi-verse in 1976, with the first issue of What If,
Then in 1983 the Omni-verse is mentioned for the first time (this is a remake of the original issue, same art, just with Color, original was Black & White)
At first the Omni-verse was exclusively used in Captain Britain associated titles only (though these were published by Marvel), years later it transitioned into the mainstream Marvel Reality.
And that's the History of the VERSES in Marvel,
don't believe me?
Look it up.
Originally posted by Horrificus
If we look at our Universe in this way, as a Miniverse, as a central point from which an infinite number of Pocket Dimensions and Divergant Realities stem, Eternity can be called "Multiversal", but only symbolically.
He is NOT the living Embodiment of ALL UNIVERSES in the Multiverse, of which 616 is only a part.
According to Marvel, he is.
NOT "symbolically", as in your opinion, but LITERALLY:
The UNIVERSE materializing into ETERNITY before Galactus
When Gamora Enters ETERNITY she ends up INSIDE the UNIVERSE
The UNIVERSE materializing Into ETERNITY before Strange
When Thanos with the IG became the Universe, it was ETERNITY'S place he took.
Originally posted by Horrificus
It's kind of like:Your house is a Universe.
Your state is a Multiverse.
The United States is an Omniverse.
Standing in your living room, and saying the house is your universe, and all the rooms are possibly other dimensions, realities and timelines.
And, you are Eternity for all of these realms.
But, while you are standing in your living room, looking out the window at all the other houses (Universes), you are NOT Eternity for all of those other houses (Universes).
Again with the analogies.
Originally posted by Horrificus
And, um, yeah, real life fact does have a place in a forum where people are using incorrect facts to prove their points.
I wonder who your referring to.
Originally posted by leonidas
and it doesn't necessarily mean it DOESN'T.
Which is why one must read the whole story to get a full picture of the subject matter.
Originally posted by leonidas
ahhhh . . . the irony. 😂
What's so funny?
Originally posted by leonidas
i recall quite vividly bringing those self-same defenders' scans to bear AGAINST you to prove the EXACT OPPOSITE POINT to the one you're trying to make with them! i showed those scans originally to try and show you that there IS no (pardon the pun . . .) "universal" terminology dealing with the concepts you/we are dealing with. you are now saying that dormammu -- a dimensional lord whom strange himself and alone has whooped multiple times -- had the power to walk up to multi-eternity and kill him/it??
I've told you before, when addressing me be thorough, it's annoying to respond to replies that have NOTHING to do with what I posted.
When did I say Dormammu can do anything? WHEN?
You obviously skipped through the book and know nothing of what took place in that arc,
they actually attempted to give a REASON of WHY that was possible.
On the other hand I was presenting how the TERM UNIVERSE or ETERNITY can be used in the same series to define different Realities (such as a Universe or a Multi-verse)
NOW,
Here is a summary of what took place in that arc, for your learning experience.
First of all, Dormammu will NEVER be able to defeat Eternity at any level under his own Power.
Dormammu had mystically Bonded his Power with his Sister's UMAR, and the only reason THEY were able to defeat Eternity is because of a SHIFT in the Cosmic Axis, which made the Impossible, Possible, (like Dormammu and Umar harming Eternity)
Basically PIS.
The win was so definite, there wasn't even a battle
It Begins, Last page of the issue #03
It Ends, First page of the following issue, lol.
Pure Crap.
Even the Editors of Marvel DISSED the Writers of this pathetic nonsense
Here's the Full Page.
Originally posted by leonidas
i will have to disagree with that, i'm afraid. the fact that dormmy named eternity a multiverse just goes to show how fluid the terminology is.
And I'll DISAGREE with you in the totality of the word, nothing was fluid about the terminology, that's YOUR UNSUPPORTED Opinion.
It was the MULTI-VERSE they killed,
but the way it was conducted was PIS on a scale that rivals Protege and LT's confrontation.
Originally posted by leonidas
eternity DOES comprise a host of dimensions/realities/"pocket" universes (which the dark dimension itself is said to be)/etc . . . in that sense, he IS multiversal because dimensions can also be termed universes in some cases and realities in some cases. the terminology depends entirely upon the writer.
More UNSUPPROTED opinions, this isn't even speculation.
Originally posted by leonidas
do you honestly think i guy like dormmamu walks up to multi-eternity and just . . . kills him?
If you pay attention this time to my FULL post, you'll notice how it really happened,
though it was still a tramendous amount of PIS, so much so, I never have considered it a feat.
Originally posted by leonidas
in your explanation of the IG you said lt didn't have a problem with what was happening in 616 because it was confined to OUR universe. but you think he'd have been fine with letting dormmamu just . . . remake EVERYTHING?
Again, I wasn't defending Dormammu's AND UMAR'S actions duke,
my comparison was about how Eternity is titled the "Universe" and the "Multi-verse", and sometimes in the same issue,
had I known this would tickle you so, I would have opted for a different set of issues, there are MANY Instances where this same mix of titles (Universe, Multi-verse, Reality ect...) are compiled in the same issue or arc, and we as readers have to follow the story through in order to know exactly what they are referring to.
Originally posted by leonidas
your defense will be "on-panel evidence clearly supports my interpretation as it says 'multiverse' right on the page." and you're obviously right. it DOES say multiverse. but using your idea of looking at the whole story, it's clear to me only "616" eternity was intended.
Well....that's according to you,
but the story according to the Writer and Marvel the company that published and distributed the book, clearly depicts a direct focus on the MULTI-VERSE.
Show me where your getting your info from, that 616 Eternity is what was "clearly intended".
Originally posted by leonidas
and it's not on-panel evidence that should be the be-all-end-all in a debate. the context of said evidence should be the be-all-end-all. and there is no surrounding context and no logical explanation that i can imagine that would rationally explain away dormmamu's being able to walk up to kill multi-eternity AND assume his role as the multiverse's life-force.
Then go read the comic again, and perhaps you'll understand the second time around.
There were a set of circumstances that lead upto the event as I presented, but it was all PIS.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Which is why one must read the whole story to get a full picture of the subject matter.What's so funny?
actually, i thought it was quite clear what i found amusing . . .
I've told you before, when addressing me be thorough, it's annoying to respond to replies that have NOTHING to do with what I posted.
that's funny, cuz i could swear i recall telling YOU before that i do not enjoy being talked down to . . .
On the other hand I was presenting how the TERM UNIVERSE or ETERNITY can be used in the same series to define different Realities (such as a Universe or a Multi-verse)
ohhh . . .
a quote from my previous post: i showed those scans originally to try and show you that there IS no (pardon the pun . . .) "universal" terminology dealing with the concepts you/we are dealing with.
in other words -- i wanted to show that the terms could be used interchangeably in the same series and BETWEEN different series to define the same or different concepts. yet . . . somehow my reply had nothing to do with your post . . .? 😕
When did I say Dormammu can do anything? WHEN?
yikes, someone is cranky . . . so you accept that dormmy wiped out the multiverse but don't like how they showed it? okey-dokey. 😉
You obviously skipped through the book and know nothing of what took place in that arc,
i'm REALLY trying to maintain the . . . 'civility' we've approached recently . . .
Here is a summary of what took place in that arc, for your learning experience.
but . . . you're making it more and more difficult . . . incidentally, whose summary is that . . . .?
First of all, Dormammu will NEVER be able to defeat Eternity at any level under his own Power.
sanity returns . . .
Dormammu had mystically Bonded his Power with his Sister's UMAR, and the only reason THEY were able to defeat Eternity is because of a SHIFT in the Cosmic Axis, which made the Impossible, Possible, (like Dormammu and Umar harming Eternity)Basically PIS.
yes, now that you were good enough to refresh me with that summary, i seem to vaguely recall something of the story . . . the 'laws of the universe' are unravelling . . . a shift in the cosmic axis. the multiversal axis, obviously . . .?
The win was so definite, there wasn't even a battle
a win over multi-eternity, clearly? only because you need to cling to your definition of multiverse.
Even the Editors of Marvel DISSED the Writers of this pathetic nonsense
the whole series was intended to amuse and NOT be taken literally. with the utter disregrad for terminology throughout, explain again how it is that you are so certain what multiverse means in this particular series?
And I'll DISAGREE with you in the totality of the word, nothing was fluid about the terminology, that's YOUR UNSUPPORTED Opinion.
kool. but explain why you presume that universe MEANS multiverse, rather than MULTIVERSE meaning UNIVERSE.
It was the MULTI-VERSE they killed,
or it was the universe. terms were interchanged throughout the series.
but the way it was conducted was PIS on a scale that rivals Protege and LT's confrontation.
it was never intended to be looked at as you are -- and it's slightly less pis-sy if you say universe rather than multiverse. 😉
More UNSUPPROTED opinions, this isn't even speculation.
and in a book that interchanged universe and multiverse freely, where exactly is your unsupported proof that multiverse did NOT mean universe . . .?
If you pay attention this time to my FULL post, you'll notice how it really happened,
😆 i'll try harder to keep up. 😉
had I known this would tickle you so, I would have opted for a different set of issues, there are MANY Instances where this same mix of titles (Universe, Multi-verse, Reality ect...) are compiled in the same issue or arc, and we as readers have to follow the story through in order to know exactly what they are referring to.
okay, so following along with the story, we know dormmy used multiverse sometimes, universe others. so . . . since the terminology is rendered meaningless by its lack of consistency, what other proof/indications do you have that dormmy took over the whole multiverse?
but the story according to the Writer and Marvel the company that published and distributed the book, clearly depicts a direct focus on the MULTI-VERSE. Show me where your getting your info from, that 616 Eternity is what was "clearly intended".
i'd have thought the intent rather obvious -- dormmy and umar could NOT overthrow the multiverse. nor -- since multiverse and universe were used interchangeably -- does that at all need to be the case.
Then go read the comic again, and perhaps you'll understand the second time around.
no need after your edification. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan777
Thats [b]your own personal oppinion, and isnt factual in the slightest.It took God to overcome GEB, and what was THOTU my friend?
Answer: It was Gods power.Stop bringing you oppinion into this
Destroying the Multiverse>Then doing nothing on pannel
THOTU's feats>GEB (who has no feats, and only your oppinion of what its power should be) 🙄 [/B]
My personal opinion?? Its not just my personal opinion its fact! Just because someone using THOTU is Gods power, does not give them a win.. This is much like Michael who has Gods power also vs TGEB. Could THOTU go up against TOAA? Was Marvel Heaven even threatened by Thanos w/THOTU? No.. Already have explained this too you Galan, come on 😉
Lot's of His Opinions and Little Flexibility, Originally posted by Mr MasterDude, you are wrong. Hasn't it ever happened before?
You can't just say that anybody other than you, with an opinion, is basing their points of view on opinion, yet yours are based on fact.
You can advise others to ignore certain statements, storylines and feats, yet they should embrace the others that adhere to your opinions.
I gave definitions, explanations and reality, so forum members could make their own decisions. Not based on my philosophies, but based on hard science. Hard science which, supposedly, a lot of writers learn about in an effort to create realistic, engaging stories. Sometimes they get it wrong. It's not a big deal, untl somebody places too much self-worth on their knowledge of comic book trivia.
Eternity was born with the Big Bang. The Big Bang that Birthed this Universe. Not the Multiverse.
There are an infinite number of Eternities out their, in their respective universes.
Case in point:
What If? is not Canon to 616. It is based on possible divergent timelines where actions occur that never occured in 616.
But, it does play on the entire Marvel mythos of alternate universes.
In the What If? The Avengers had become Pawns of Korvac ...
It is a divergent universe, identical to 616. LT shows up, and throughout the entire issue, he discusses his role, overseeing the Multiverse.
When he cannot just diffuse Korvac, he closes off that Universe.
When he does that, it seals the fate of Master Order, Lord Chaos, Eternity and everybody else of that universe.
Get it? He seals off this universe, which traps that ETERNITY.
Because Eternity represents his Universe. Not a Multiverse.
Originally posted by Mr Master
When did I say Dormammu can do anything? WHEN?
oops, forgot this one. show please where I said you "said" anything . . .
i believe you were referencing THIS particular tidbit from my post: you are now saying that dormammu -- a dimensional lord whom strange himself and alone has whooped multiple times -- had the power to walk up to multi-eternity and kill him/it??
you did read my post thoroughly enough to note the QUESTION MARKS at the end of the statement, right . . .?
😖hifty:
Originally posted by leonidas
actually, i thought it was quite clear what i found amusing . . .
Not to me.
Originally posted by leonidas
that's funny, cuz i could swear i recall telling YOU before that i do not enjoy being talked down to . . .
Telling you post to my replies accordingly is not talking down to you, in the other thread you thought I said Magus created his own Universe, when I specifically said, he created a Universe with 5 CCU and he used that Universe to merge it with 616, that's for not being thorough.
Originally posted by leonidas
a quote from my previous post: [b]i showed those scans originally to try and show you that there IS no (pardon the pun . . .) "universal" terminology dealing with the concepts you/we are dealing with.in other words -- i wanted to show that the terms could be used interchangeably in the same series and BETWEEN different series to define the same or different concepts. yet . . . somehow my reply had nothing to do with your post . . .? [/B]
And I already told you, this is why you need to read the WHOLE Story.
Originally posted by leonidas
yikes, someone is cranky . . . so you accept that dormmy wiped out the multiverse but don't like how they showed it? okey-dokey.
Ok, jokes now.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm REALLY trying to maintain the . . . 'civility' we've approached recently . . .
As I have, but it's irritating when you reply with content that has nothing to do with what I posted.
Originally posted by leonidas
but . . . you're making it more and more difficult . . . incidentally, whose summary is that . . . .?
The Comic Book issue's.
Originally posted by leonidas
sanity returns . . .
It never went anywhere, you just read into my post incorrectly.
Originally posted by leonidas
yes, now that you were good enough to refresh me with that summary, i seem to vaguely recall something of the story . . . the 'laws of the universe' are unravelling . . . a shift in the cosmic axis. the multiversal axis, obviously . . .?
Good for you, obviously.
Originally posted by leonidas
a win over multi-eternity, clearly? only because you need to cling to your definition of multiverse.
This is what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by leonidas
the whole series was intended to amuse and NOT be taken literally. with the utter disregrad for terminology throughout, explain again how it is that you are so certain what multiverse means in this particular series?
No need to explain, the visuals will take care of that:
"ENTIRE UNIVERSES being born"
"Detonate ETERNITY'S Heart, Re-Birthing everything in ALL the UNIVERSES"
Originally posted by leonidas
kool. but explain why you presume that universe MEANS multiverse, rather than MULTIVERSE meaning UNIVERSE.
"ENTIRE UNIVERSES being born"
"Detonate ETERNITY'S Heart, Re-Birthing everything in ALL the UNIVERSES"
Originally posted by leonidas
or it was the universe. terms were interchanged throughout the series.
"ENTIRE UNIVERSES being born"
"Detonate ETERNITY'S Heart, Re-Birthing everything in ALL the UNIVERSES"
Originally posted by leonidas
it was never intended to be looked at as you are -- and it's slightly less pis-sy if you say universe rather than multiverse.
Since when do you dictate what Marvel does?
Originally posted by leonidas
and in a book that interchanged universe and multiverse freely, where exactly is your unsupported proof that multiverse did NOT mean universe . . .?
I'm starting to see circles developing.
Maybe we should just leave it alone.
Originally posted by leonidas
okay, so following along with the story, we know dormmy used multiverse sometimes, universe others. so . . . since the terminology is rendered meaningless by its lack of consistency, what other proof/indications do you have that dormmy took over the whole multiverse?
SO you might aswell render a whole bunch of issues meaningless, cause it's been done many times, but your sarcasm is pulling through atleast.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'd have thought the intent rather obvious -- dormmy and umar could NOT overthrow the multiverse. nor -- since multiverse and universe were used interchangeably -- does that at all need to be the case.
Well now the circle has been completed, no need to dizzy myself.
Originally posted by Horrificus
What If? is not Canon to 616. It is based on possible divergent timelines where actions occur that never occured in 616.
But, it does play on the entire Marvel mythos of alternate universes.
In the What If? The Avengers had become Pawns of Korvac ...
It is a divergent universe, identical to 616. LT shows up, and throughout the entire issue, he discusses his role, overseeing the Multiverse.
When he cannot just diffuse Korvac, he closes off that Universe.
When he does that, it seals the fate of Master Order, Lord Chaos, Eternity and everybody else of that universe.Get it? He seals off this universe, which traps that ETERNITY.Because Eternity represents his Universe. Not a Multiverse.
firefirefireph
Originally posted by Mr Master
"ENTIRE UNIVERSES being born"
"Detonate ETERNITY'S Heart, Re-Birthing everything in ALL the UNIVERSES"
earlier you said universe meant multiverse. did he take out the omniverse, then?
sarcasm aside, you cling to that scan. fine by me. the words that are in it are rendered meaningless however because they were stripped of meaning in the series. universe was ALSO called dimension in that series. reality was used all over the place. if there was no consistency of terms how can you claim that ANY use of the terms are meaningful?
to show further the farsical nature of the series, hence the futility of trying to derive literal meaning from the series, maybe we could show the ss with the surfer babes?
Originally posted by leonidas
earlier you said universe meant multiverse. did he take out the omniverse, then?
sarcasm aside, you cling to that scan. fine by me. the words that are in it are rendered meaningless however because they were stripped of meaning in the series. universe was ALSO called dimension in that series. reality was used all over the place. if there was no consistency of terms how can you claim that ANY use of the terms are meaningful?
to show further the farsical nature of the series, hence the futility of trying to derive literal meaning from the series, maybe we could show the ss with the surfer babes?
At least somebody understand what I have been trying to say.
Thanks.
There is a truth. There are facts. There is a description of the Omniverse that is used in real life. I put it down in my post.
I didn't do it to force anybody to think anything, or anything negative. I only did that, so in cases like these, where the writers get it wrong, make a silly mistake, typo, or are just speaking poetically, there is a 2 + 2 that we can fall back on. I was making a point using 2 + 2 as a symbol for reality/real science/truth.
So, when some writer makes a mistake, and has a character say something like...
And, the Red Skull yells, "Now that I have stolen 2 atomic bombs, I am the most powerful man in the Multiverse!"
or
After Thanos gains a Cosmic Cube, he says, "I now rule the entire Omniverse!"
...we know that we don't have to actually buy into it. It was a mistake.
Originally posted by leonidas
earlier you said universe meant multiverse. did he take out the omniverse, then?
The Omni-verse was never mentioned.
"Comes down to conquering the Universe, well, MULTI-VERSE in my case"
"the single most powerful Entity in ALL the MULTI-VERSE"
But the MULTI-VERSE was.
You play the condescending sarcastic role, then claim civility,
I'll stick to serious facts.
Originally posted by leonidas
maybe we could show the ss with the surfer babes?
lmfao
Originally posted by Horrificus
Very good.At least somebody understand what I have been trying to say.
Thanks.
There is a truth. There are facts. There is a description of the Omniverse that is used in real life. I put it down in my post.
How amusing,
you seriously think that him agreeing with you has anything to do with you.
When it has everything to do with me. 😆
Originally posted by Horrificus
And, the Red Skull yells, "Now that I have stolen 2 atomic bombs, I am the most powerful man in the Multiverse!"
Would love for you to prove when the Red Skull made such a statement.
Originally posted by Horrificus
After Thanos gains a Cosmic Cube, he says, "I now rule the entire Omniverse!"
Again, show me where this claim was ever done by Thanos, I have all his appearances scanned, I'll even post them for you to prove me wrong, tell me where to find it.
Originally posted by Horrificus
...we know that we don't have to actually buy into it. It was a mistake.
Well when it never happened, the only mistake is yours, posting made up stories to gain an edge in the debate.
