Originally posted by Ethereal
Phoenix is the spark that initiated LIFE. I have off panel evidence for this..
Theoretically, the Phoenix Force is the SPARK that Ignites the Big Bang cyclically for a Universe when it's time has come to be recycled.
Theoretically because it has NEVER happened On Panel.
Now On Panel,
the Phoenix is ALL it's forms, is a joke in the Cosmic Hierarchy.
Let us begin shall we:
Unlike other AVATARS, Rachel Summers is the DAUGHTER of Jean Grey (the White Phoenix of the Crown)
The Actual PHOENIX FORCE is controlled by Rachel Summers
This is no surprise:
The Phoenix Force tells Rachel, "ALL I have become, You ARE Too"
"My Essence is Bonded to Your Spirit, the Burden of Power, will be YOURS"
The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel, " You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"
NOW:
Rachel Summers (while in the 616 Universe) with the PHOENIX FORCE getting Owned by Mordred, and Mordred is in ANOTHER Universe, (Mordred has absolute control of Rachel)
Rachel Summers with the PHOENIX FORCE getting Owned by Quasar
Quasar holding his own against Rachel Summers with the PHOENIX FORCE, AND Mordred, while protecting Nightcrawler, Meggan and Captain Britain
Rachel Summers getting KNOCKED Out by Thor with ONE blast,
continues in the next post..
Continues...
Now lets observe Jean Grey (White Phoenix of the Crown) getting OWNED all over the place:
"Phoenix AGAIN REGAINED Her FULL, GodLike Powers"
Then gets ZAPPED ONCE and DIES.
Different angle:
Onslaught crushing and snuffing out the Phoenix Force like a measly candle
Xorn, KILLING Jean Grey the (White Phoenix of the Crown) and exploding the PHOENIX FORCE into a Billion pieces with an Electromagnetic Pulse,
Continues in the next post....
Continues....
The Actual PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT an AVATAR) again is manipulated
"an Ancient Crippled Alien Construct brought the PHOENIX FORCE here by WRENCHING it through the Space/Time Continuum from ITS NATIVE UNIVERSE"
Rose Hunt with ONE blast, FLOORS the Phoenix Force
Look at how the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE leave's Amber Hunt's body
Continues in the next post...
Continues...
"The Ship SNARED the PHOENIX FORM from another Dimension to be the driving source"
And this is the ON PANEL evidence of this EVENT
While the PHOENIX FORCE is in it's NATURAL STATE (Truly the MOST Powerful version, even beyond WPOTC or Jean Grey)
The SHIP, rips a HOLE in Space & Time in front of the PHOENIX FORCE in it's own Universe
"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"
THEN, the SHIP attacks the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE, the SHIP wants to drain the energy of the FORCE
"Impaled, Spitted, the PHOENIX writhes as it's LIFE is SUCKED OUT"
"It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"
"It's willfully TORTURING the PHOENIX" ..... am I imagining things, or is it's FIRE GOING OUT, the COLORS are FADING, like it's DYING"
"TRULY, the PHOENIX is BATTLING for IT'S LIFE against the sear of Light that is STRIPPING it's POWER AWAY"
The PHOENIX manages to break free for a moment (though NEAR DEATH)
"WOUNDED the PHOENIX FALLS, to SURVIVE, to MEND, to HEAL, it MUST find a Host"
The SHIP allows the PHOENIX to escape for now,
"to locate it's pilot program BEFORE DRAINING IT ENTIRELY"
A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL) are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT an AVATAR)
"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED, the PHOENIX is REBORN and FRESH"
AND they're STILL holding their own
The Six heroes BEAT (PHYSICALLY) the PHOENIX FORCE into and through the Portal
Continues in the next post...
Continues...
And for all those that have the nutsacks to claim the Living Tribunal and the PHOENIX FORCE are equals:
Living Tribunal's little burning canary.
"The Phoenix KNOWS the Tribunal will NOT allow it...
Now isn't that sweet.
Bottom Line:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Would love for you to prove when the Red Skull made such a statement.Again, show me where this claim was ever done by Thanos, I have all his appearances scanned, I'll even post them for you to prove me wrong, tell me where to find it.
"for the sake of the multiverse it must today heed the tribunals wishes"
ive never read that comic what was the multiversal thret? and why would she have the choice to heed the wishes of the tribunal?
if he wont alow it there should be no question about heeding anything. she should not be able to go against his wishes if he passed judgment.
did he not pass judgement on her in that?
Originally posted by xjustice69x
"for the sake of the multiverse it must today heed the tribunals wishes"ive never read that comic what was the multiversal thret? and why would she have the choice to heed the wishes of the tribunal?
if he wont alow it there should be no question about heeding anything. she should not be able to go against his wishes if he passed judgment.
did he not pass judgement on her in that?
That was a typo error on the inker's part, Phoenix NEVER threatened the Multi-verse in that issue, not EVEN the Universe, (well, maybe the Universe)
Sym and Madelyn Prior (Jean Grey's clone) were the true threats,
They opened a Dimensional Rift between LIMBO and EARTH that caused a great UNBALANCE called the "Limbo Effect"
"Phoenix...Despite her great power, was DEFEATED by Demons, who transformed her into a mannequin in a Shop Window"
Reed Richards and Dr Doom were their lackeys, and together they built a machine that could expand the "Limbo Effect"... thereby granting Sym and Pryor access to the whole Multi-verse for takeover, without being interfered by anyone.
"Your Machine will be soon ready"
"In a matter of days, the Multi-verse itself will worship you"
"Same Spell which cuts off this Dimension from Intervention by OUTER Dimensional Forces"
"ALSO prevents us from attaining out Ultimate Goal, the EXTENSION of LIMBO to ALL the PLANES of the MULTI-VERSE, Richard's and Doom's MACHINE will Magnify the Limbo Effect without opening us to OUTER Dimensional attack"
In the end, when their plans were thwarted to take over the Multi-verse, Madelyn Prior (Jean Grey's clone) summoned the Phoenix Force in an attempt to at least takeover the Universe,
but that proved unsuccessful as well.
So the Phoenix Force burned away (or purified) the Earth, leaving it in a prehistoric age, giving Humanity a second chance.
ps. The Living Tribunal never had a chance to pass judgement on the Earth, because the Balance was restored right before his arrival.
Originally posted by Mr Master
How amusing,
you seriously think that him agreeing with you has anything to do with you.
When it has everything to do with me. 😆
Would love for you to prove when the Red Skull made such a statement.
Again, show me where this claim was ever done by Thanos, I have all his appearances scanned, I'll even post them for you to prove me wrong, tell me where to find it.
Well when it never happened, the only mistake is yours, posting made up stories to gain an edge in the debate.
You obviously don't understand. The situations with Red Skull and Thanos were not real. They were meant to prove that, just because a statement is made in a comic book, does not mean that it is realistic or true or even possible.
And, I only created those 2 situations because you don't seem to be grasping what is going on.
The rest of what you said is tripe, does not shake me or my point, and is not worth responding to.
Originally posted by Horrificus
You obviously don't understand. The situations with Red Skull and Thanos were not real. They were meant to prove that, just because a statement is made in a comic book, does not mean that it is realistic or true or even possible.
Statements made that are accompanied by Artistic Depiction are canon and very much realistic, unless otherwise rejected by Marvel itself.
Originally posted by Horrificus
And, I only created those 2 situations because you don't seem to be grasping what is going on.
Forgive me if I'm not into analogies and off topic story telling to derail or explain what's clearly visualized On Panel.
And on that we can definitely agree,
I will NEVER grasp/except your definition that contradicts what Marvel has already established as fact in their Comic books.
Originally posted by Horrificus
The rest of what you said is tripe, does not shake me or my point, and is not worth responding to.
The feeling is mutual.
You must of forgot that you implanted this whole hostile emotion between us with this:
Originally posted by Horrificus
My God! WHat a mess they have made of the poor ole MU.
This was directed at me, because it was posted immediately after I presented to everyone how Jim Starlin, (the premiere voice of the Marvel Cosmology) defined the Cosmos.
Had you made your opening statement with a little less indignation, we probably wouldn't be at this stage of the game.
Mr. Master do you think Onslaught can defeat the Dark Pheonix?
I mean I understand he is powerful, but you have to consider two major factors:
1) Onslaught's armor was crushed by the Hulk (even if it's total PIS, it's still canon)
2) Dark Pheonix devoured a star and destroyed all the neighboring planets including a Shiar Emperial Ship, in a flash.
Your scans make it seem as though Onslaught could crush Dark Pheonix, but logically, according to other on panel truths, Dark Pheonix would wipe him out effortlessly....
So I'm kind of thrown off to be honest.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Mr. Master do you think Onslaught can defeat the Dark Pheonix?I mean I understand he is powerful, but you have to consider two major factors:
1) Onslaught's armor was crushed by the Hulk (even if it's total PIS, it's still canon)
2) Dark Pheonix devoured a star and destroyed all the neighboring planets including a Shiar Emperial Ship, in a flash.
Your scans make it seem as though Onslaught could crush Dark Pheonix, but logically, according to other on panel truths, Dark Pheonix would wipe him out effortlessly....
So I'm kind of thrown off to be honest.
Those scans are when Onslaught was in the Astral Plane, where he was more powerful than in the physical.
He had Xavier's and Magneto's powers at "full potential"
The madness peaked when he absorbed Nate Grey's and Franklin Richard's powers.
Franky alone can create "pocket Universes" like nothing.
So in his physical form, DP would probably take him, though that wouldn't kill him, just like he didn't die when Hulk and the heroes shattered his armor.
In fact, that's what released his Energy Form which was much more powerful.
Lastly, in the ever so common PISSY fashion he was ultimately defeated, but the Avengers and several others had to seemingly sacrifice their lives to do so, by entering his Energy Form and PIS PIS PIS after that.
Energy form Onslaught without PIS takes DP imo, especially with Nate's and Frank's powers.
Oh by the way, DP took out a Sun, Onslaught created one, and he could of done more but it became a PISSING contest soon after.
Originally posted by Mr Master
"Comes down to conquering the Universe, well, MULTI-VERSE in my case"
you're correct in regards to the circular nature of last night's discussion. and i can see quite well that your scan(s) say/imply multiverse. my contention all along has been a simple one -- multiverse does not have to have the same meaning to every writer. these ones in particular.
again, universe meant multiverse but multiverse ALSO means multiverse? if one definition is inaccurate, why would i suppose the other to be accurate?
to me it's clear giffen et al., meant eternity (as in 616 eternity) and not multi-eternity (whom i'd wager that pack of clowns has never even heard of . . .) and that multiverse referred to the multi-dimensional nature of eternity (singluar) and not the "multiverse as we've come to know it". in the middle of the series umar refers to strange's 'universe' while in the dark dimension, and even before gaining his 'godhood' dormmy talks about all the 'universes' he's conquered while later saying dimensions and realities and every other term you can think of.
now, while you show your scan over and again about 'universes' unfolding, etc., (universes that could well exist within singular eternity if you allow for the interchangeable nature of the terminology -- especially as it was used in THAT series) your interpretation remains strictly an opinion.
and while you have your scan that confirms YOUR opinion, this scan (one you've already showed) clearly indicates the intent of the writers in MY opinion:
"WE have met before . . ."
and of course dormmy tried battling eternity one-on-one years ago in a strange tales issue done by ditko. that line -- "we have met before." -- clearly to my mind indicates that the writers of the story intended for this to be the same eternity now as it was then -- and of course that was not multi-eternity who didn't even come into existence until 40 years later.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Statements made that are accompanied by Artistic Depiction are canon and very much realistic, unless otherwise rejected by Marvel itself.
Forgive me if I'm not into analogies and off topic story telling to derail or explain what's clearly visualized On Panel.
And on that we can definitely agree,
I will NEVER grasp/except your definition that contradicts what Marvel has already established as fact in their Comic books.
The feeling is mutual.
You must of forgot that you implanted this whole hostile emotion between us with this:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=429781&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=13
This was directed at me, because it was posted immediately after I presented to everyone how Jim Starlin, (the premiere voice of the Marvel Cosmology) defined the Cosmos.
Had you made your opening statement with a little less indignation, we Probably wouldn't be at this stage of the game.
