Why you can't compare real humans to MU humans.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What so you think this explains that humans in the real world can have god like psionic powers? 😕

no

I figured if you knew the first thing about genetics or evolution you might understand what everyone is telling you

not to mention, that 2 examples (mastermold and the Kree Supreme Intelligence), even if they did proove your point, which they don't, arent enough to go on by forum tradition.

Find a scan that says "Daredevil's superhuman powers are a direct result of his genetics BECAUSE he has artifically created genes"

When you find that, you have a valid theory.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
...the Celestials did not experiment on modern humans, they experimented on protohumans resulting in humans.

Originally posted by inamilist
no

So why bother showing me it then?

Originally posted by inamilist

I figured if you knew the first thing about genetics or evolution you might understand what everyone is telling you

What dont understand about what they are telling me?

Originally posted by inamilist

not to mention, that 2 examples (mastermold and the Kree Supreme Intelligence), even if they did proove your point, which they don't,

Why isn't it enough evidence. Both Supreme intelligence and Master Mold are experts on human DNA, so what you are telling me is that their opinions are not important?

Originally posted by inamilist

arent enough to go on by forum tradition.

Says who? Is it written down in black and white. Don't think so somehow.

Originally posted by inamilist

Find a scan that says "Daredevil's superhuman powers are a direct result of his genetics BECAUSE he has artifically created genes"

When you find that, you have a valid theory.

I dont have to do that. The fact of the matter that both the SI and MM think that ordinary humans have more potential then real world humans, end of story. Thats my point, ordinary humans have more potential in the MU regardless of what the writers do.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So why bother showing me it then?

What dont understand about what they are telling me?

You don't understand variation and mutation

in nature, mutation is VERY normal. Mutations in DNA are what cause phenotypical changes in an organism.

For the most part, these are very minute changes from one generation to the next. A finch will give birth to chicks that have some longer and some shorter beaks. A a genotypical level this differance is a mutation, at a phenotypical level, it is variance.

Now, marvel has taken the term "mutant" from evolution and applied it as a lebel to groups that have a VERY SPECIFIC mutation. In this regard, marvel does not use the correct definition of mutant, since the real differance between a mutation that gives you blue eyes or lazer eyes is phenotypical. At a genotypical level, this is a normal mutation (all be it one that wouldn't occur in the real world).

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why isn't it enough evidence. Both Supreme intelligence and Master Mold are experts on human DNA, so what you are telling me is that their opinions are not important?

No, its not that their opinions are unimportant, they are 100% incorrect, YOU are the one that is misinterpreting what they are saying.

Humans do have a greater potential for possessing superpowers in the Marvel Universe because writers have given them circumstances where they can obtain them. Specifically important is mutation.

Since there are genotypes that exist in the MU that do not exist in the real world (and arguably couldn't) it is possible that through variance and natural selection humans could eventually become very powerful.

THISIS NOT BECAUSE THE CELESTIALS MESSED WITH THE HUMANS.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Says who? Is it written down in black and white. Don't think so somehow.

Says who? That is the basic principal of what we do. When we look to comics to try and discern truths about it, the only way to do this is through what the writers give us.

Now, this is really important, because, unlike the real world, this means that there are not well defined forces in the universe that govern things, but the whim and imagination of people.

This means that, from time to time potentially confusing or contridictitory things will be written. When we look at this, we have to go by what is true most often and what fits best with the other "truths" previously established through this means.

The reason your theory doesn't hold up is through the application of a "Occams Razor" type mechanism, whereby, to satisfy what you are claiming brand new theories about the origins of characters and whatnot must be recreated. Using the explination of variation, mutation and a little bit of PIS it is simple to explain the statements of MasterMold and the Supreme Intelligence.

Because an explination is available that does not require invoking new unproven theories, we use it. Always go with the simplest explination.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont have to do that. The fact of the matter that both the SI and MM think that ordinary humans have more potential then real world humans, end of story.

They do, as a species, because they have differant genotypes in the population that are not available in the real world. This is not the celestials (I'm sure there are individual cases where it is, but you get the point I hope).

As individuals they do not, unless the writer gives them some extenuating circumstance where they get bitten by a radioactive spider. And this is not the Celestials unless there is an EXPLICIT explination for the hero's origin as being created by the Celestials.

This is why you need to understand more about evolution to make this debate.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats my point ordinary humans have more potential in the MU regardless of what the writers do.

One scan that has the words "Spider-Man's mutated DNA is the result of genetic predisposition built into the human genome by the Celestials" and you would proove your point.

Until then, you are just making things up.

Originally posted by inamilist
You don't understand variation and mutation

in nature, mutation is VERY normal. Mutations in DNA are what cause phenotypical changes in an organism.

For the most part, these are very minute changes from one generation to the next. A finch will give birth to chicks that have some longer and some shorter beaks. A a genotypical level this differance is a mutation, at a phenotypical level, it is variance.

Now, marvel has taken the term "mutant" from evolution and applied it as a lebel to groups that have a VERY SPECIFIC mutation. In this regard, marvel does not use the correct definition of mutant, since the real differance between a mutation that gives you blue eyes or lazer eyes is phenotypical. At a genotypical level, this is a normal mutation (all be it one that wouldn't occur in the real world).

No, its not that their opinions are unimportant, they are 100% incorrect, YOU are the one that is misinterpreting what they are saying.

Humans do have a greater potential for possessing superpowers in the Marvel Universe because writers have given them circumstances where they can obtain them. Specifically important is mutation.

Since there are genotypes that exist in the MU that do not exist in the real world (and arguably couldn't) it is possible that through variance and natural selection humans could eventually become very powerful.

THISIS NOT BECAUSE THE CELESTIALS MESSED WITH THE HUMANS.

Says who? That is the basic principal of what we do. When we look to comics to try and discern truths about it, the only way to do this is through what the writers give us.

Now, this is really important, because, unlike the real world, this means that there are not well defined forces in the universe that govern things, but the whim and imagination of people.

This means that, from time to time potentially confusing or contridictitory things will be written. When we look at this, we have to go by what is true most often and what fits best with the other "truths" previously established through this means.

The reason your theory doesn't hold up is through the application of a "Occams Razor" type mechanism, whereby, to satisfy what you are claiming brand new theories about the origins of characters and whatnot must be recreated. Using the explination of variation, mutation and a little bit of PIS it is simple to explain the statements of MasterMold and the Supreme Intelligence.

Because an explination is available that does not require invoking new unproven theories, we use it. Always go with the simplest explination.

They do, as a species, because they have differant genotypes in the population that are not available in the real world. This is not the celestials (I'm sure there are individual cases where it is, but you get the point I hope).

As individuals they do not, unless the writer gives them some extenuating circumstance where they get bitten by a radioactive spider. And this is not the Celestials unless there is an EXPLICIT explination for the hero's origin as being created by the Celestials.

This is why you need to understand more about evolution to make this debate.

One scan that has the words "Spider-Man's mutated DNA is the result of genetic predisposition built into the human genome by the Celestials" and you would proove your point.

Until then, you are just making things up.

You know what....read it and weep.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Inhumans

At the beginning of the Kree-Skrull War, millions of years ago in Earth time, the alien Kree established a station on the planet Uranus, a strategic position between the Kree and Skrull empires. Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien CELESTIALS.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/j/jonesrick.htm

Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things. These fantastic mental feats, which the Supreme Intelligence claimed would one day be possible for all humanity,

NEXT!

Originally posted by Alfheim
You know what....read it and weep.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Inhumans

why not explain it to me

Why are the inhumans important?

If they are the genetic creations of the Celestials they make complete sense in light of what I said. Especially given that they are an isolated genome

Not to mention that we aren't talking about the inhumans, we are talking about normal humans.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
At the beginning of the Kree-Skrull War, millions of years ago in Earth time, the alien Kree established a station on the planet Uranus, a strategic position between the Kree and Skrull empires. Through their work at this station,[B] they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien CELESTIALS.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/j/jonesrick.htm[/B]

ok. This is really good

This is 100% closer to proving your point than the other examples you showed.

Now, what were these genetic potentials?

Find something that says the X gene is a result of this potential, or something that says environmental factors can activate this in people like spiderman

If you have the proof I will support you

Originally posted by Alfheim
Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things. [B]These fantastic mental feats, which the Supreme Intelligence claimed would one day be possible for all humanity, [/B]

Ok. Who is Jones? What is signifigant about his powers?

You need to show that whatever genotypical mutations that Jones has are a result of Celestial tinkering, otherwise its just general natural selection that causes the possibility for humans to be super

also, some issue numbers would be great. If you don't have the scans, I'll get them for you, then there will be agreement among people

Originally posted by Alfheim
NEXT!

next?

you have hardly prooven anything.

Originally posted by inamilist
why not explain it to me

Why are the inhumans important?

If they are the genetic creations of the Celestials they make complete sense in light of what I said. Especially given that they are an isolated genome

Not to mention that we aren't talking about the inhumans, we are talking about normal humans.....

No ,no, no, no. Read what it says. The article talks about what the Kree thought of HUMANS. The inhumans were created by the Kree.

Originally posted by inamilist

ok. This is really good

This is 100% closer to proving your point than the other examples you showed.

Now, what were these genetic potentials?

Find something that says the X gene is a result of this potential, or something that says environmental factors can activate this in people like spiderman

If you have the proof I will support you

You are wasting my time. Use some common sense what do you think the genetic potential is??? The Celestials created The Eternals and The Deviants on earth.

Futhermore read this...

http://www.marveldirectory.com/alienraces/skrull.htm

While the Skrulls were still in their early stages of evolutionary developments, the Celestials, a star-spanning race of genetic engineers, landed on Skrullos and selected a number of natives upon whom to experiment. With one sample group, the Celestials affected a series of genes related to longevity, and thereby created Skrullian equivalents to Earth's Eternals. With another group, the Celestials tested for genetic stability and diversity, and created the Skrullian counterparts to Earth's Deviants.(Note: According to Ghaur, priestlord of Earth's Deviants, a single Celestial, the socalled "Dreaming Celestial," was responsible for the creation of Earth's Deviants and was punished by other Celestials for doing so. It is as yet unknown whether the creation of the Skrullian Deviants was the work of the Dreaming Celestial alone, or of other Celestials as well or apart from him.) In a third group the Celestials implanted a gene series, which would permit rapid benevolent mutation under the right conditions when the species matured. This group, its genetic modifications latent, remained the Skrullian "Normals." After performing their genetic experiments, the Celestials left Skrullos.

Do I need to elaborate on this? Giving races superhuman powers is what Celestials do. Therefore common sense dictates that the potential that Celestials give a race is the ability to have superhuman powers. the X-factor gene gives people the ability to develop powers therefore the Celestials created it.

Originally posted by inamilist

Ok. Who is Jones? What is signifigant about his powers?

You need to show that whatever genotypical mutations that Jones has are a result of Celestial tinkering, otherwise its just general natural selection that causes the possibility for humans to be super

also, some issue numbers would be great. If you don't have the scans, I'll get them for you, then there will be agreement among people

next?

you have hardly prooven anything.

You 're wasting my time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The point im making is that human beings have more potential than real humans. This is backed up by Master Mold and Supreme Intelligence, im supposed to belive them or you?

But it again doesn't have anything - at - all - to do with why streetlevelers to the stuff they do...doh

And since 99% of the humans in MU are like us, I don't see anything wrong in comparing real world things with them, like normal human strength, the normal human bone durability etc.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But it again doesn't have anything - at - all - to do with why streetlevelers to the stuff they do...doh

And since 99% of the humans in MU are like us, I don't see anything wrong in comparing real world things with them, like normal human strength, the normal human bone durability etc.

I'll makes this real simple. Do MU humans have greater genetic potential than real humans? Yes or No.

Originally posted by Alfheim

You 're wasting my time.

I'm not wasting your time

I'm asking you to proove what you are saying and you either can't or won't.

The fact that you won't entertain the possibility of your theory being wrong makes it faith and therefore un-testable in your eyes.

If you think debate is a waste of time, don't share your thoughts

I will not continue this debate any further than this comment: You have not given adequate proof for your theory.

I hope, for your own sake, that further life experience will allow you to understand the problems with your logic, because you clearly are unwilling to see it when others point it out. Further, I hope you have a lower standard of proof for comics than for real life, because your attitude is 100% unscientific and irrational.

And for the record, I probably know VOLUMES more about genetic potential than you, please don't patronize me, some people study things outside of comicdom aswell.

Originally posted by inamilist
I'm not wasting your time

I'm asking you to proove what you are saying and you either can't or won't.

The fact that you won't entertain the possibility of your theory being wrong makes it faith and therefore un-testable in your eyes.

If you think debate is a waste of time, don't share your thoughts

I will not continue this debate any further than this comment: You have not given adequate proof for your theory.

I hope, for your own sake, that further life experience will allow you to understand the problems with your logic, because you clearly are unwilling to see it when others point it out. Further, I hope you have a lower standard of proof for comics than for real life, because your attitude is 100% unscientific and irrational.

And for the record, I probably know VOLUMES more about genetic potential than you, please don't patronize me, some people study things outside of comicdom aswell.

Well fine, now you have to go and get personal. I keep saying do human being in the MU have more genetic potential. Forget about street levelers and bad writers do human beings in the MU have more genetic potential?

The whole purpose of the Celestials is to go around to different alien races and give different alein races powers. they didn't just do it with humans they did it with the Skrulls as well. The shape shifting ability of the skrulls was created by the Celestials....read the bio!

You then have a bio which says in black and white that the genetic potential which the Kree sought after was made by the Celestials and then you turn aroud to me and say "what potential is this?"

Thats is a stupid question. It has nothing to do with how much you know about genetics. If you cant even see that the Celestials were responsible for creating the X-gene you lack common sense. I mean for crying out loud you even have a group of mutants called the Externals which is similar to a race The Celestials created The Eternals....do the math.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I'll makes this real simple. Do MU humans have greater genetic potential than real humans? Yes or No.

Since when do you know the measure of real humans genetic potential?

And it doesnt matter whether they have the potential imbued in them by the celestials, it doesnt mean you cant compare them.

Originally posted by "V"
Since when do you know the measure of real humans genetic potential?

And it doesnt matter whether they have the potential imbued in them by the celestials, it doesnt mean you cant compare them.

I think you need to read the posts again.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think you need to read the posts again.....

No I don't really feel the need to the previous pages full of essays which are meaningless in the scheme of things.

Simple question though,
How do you know the measure of real humans potential?
And the fact they are atleast 99% of the 616 earth and happen to look like us and act like us would make them very comparable IMO?

It doesnt matter how much you go on about how their DNA has been messed around with by the celestials etc. it doesnt mean they aren't comparable to real humans does it?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I'll makes this real simple. Do MU humans have greater genetic potential than real humans? Yes or No.

Different genetics, yes. Better potential, no.

Originally posted by "V"
No I don't really feel the need to the previous pages full of essays which are meaningless in the scheme of things.

Yeah you do.

Originally posted by "V"

Simple question though,
How do you know the measure of real humans potential?

Well im not an expert in genetics, but can you tell me of any scientists who belive that ALL human beings can eventually do this.

Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things.

Originally posted by "V"

And the fact they are atleast 99% of the 616 earth and happen to look like us and act like us would make them very comparable IMO?

No they are not the points is the 616 humans have far greater genetic potential. What happens to humans when they come in contact with radiation. Do they get powers? No they dont but you're still telling me that real humans are comparable.

Originally posted by "V"

It doesnt matter how much you go on about how their DNA has been messed around with by the celestials etc. it doesnt mean they aren't comparable to real humans does it?

what you fail to understand is. What do Celestiasl do? Celestials give alien races super powers. Celestials are resposnible for creating the X gene. Read the Skrull bio, the Celestials agve the Skrulls their shape shifting ability.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Different genetics, yes. Better potential, no.

Oh I see so in other words The Supreme Intelligence was wrong?

Heres another question. If the Celestials give superpowers to all the alien races they visit is it not a logical conclusion to think that they are responsible for creating the X-gene in humans when The Celestials created shapeshifting powers in the skrulls.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah you do.

Well im not an expert in genetics, but can you tell me of any scientists who belive that ALL human beings can eventually do this.

Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things.

No they are not the points is the 616 humans have far greater genetic potential. What happens to humans when they come in contact with radiation. Do they get powers? No they dont but you're still telling me that real humans are comparable.

what you fail to understand is. What do Celestiasl do? Celestials give alien races super powers. Celestials are resposnible for creating the X gene. Read the Skrull bio, the Celestials agve the Skrulls their shape shifting ability.

I agree they have greater potential, but you also fail to see that I'm not here to debate about the celestials play in all of it. Simply that they are still comparable.

If you wanted to you could compare a gorilla to a slug, both living and sentient. Just because they have totally different appearance and DNA whatever, doesnt mean you cannot compare them?

Real humans are definetly comparable, the ruling race on earth with similar technology etc. You can compare normal humans with 616 humans who are still essentially human. Just because they have a greater potential does not mean they arent at all comparable does it?

Originally posted by "V"
I agree they have greater potential, but you also fail to see that I'm not here to debate about the celestials play in all of it.

Well mate, this is my whole point.

Originally posted by "V"
Simply that they are still comparable.

If you wanted to you could compare a gorilla to a slug, both living and sentient. Just because they have totally different appearance and DNA whatever, doesnt mean you cannot compare them?

Real humans are definetly comparable, the ruling race on earth with similar technology etc. You can compare normal humans with 616 humans who are still essentially human. Just because they have a greater potential does not mean they arent at all comparable does it?

I dont think you can. If you look at the origin of the human race in the MU, it is completely different from the real world. 616 humans are a different kettle of fish all together.

What im refeing to is people who say that 616 humans cant do such and such because real humans cant do such and such. The arguement has no weight at all.

The origin is different. The end result is the same - ordinary humans. Homo sapiens superior as a subset phenotype have evolved from Homo sapiens sapiens naturally.

Humanity as a race is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials, to supplant the Abstracts even, but that infers absolutely nothing about the somatic "genetic potential" of the average human in the MU.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The origin is different. The end result is the same - ordinary humans. Homo sapiens superior as a subset phenotype have evolved from Homo sapiens sapiens naturally.

Humanity as a race is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials, to supplant the Abstracts even, but that infers [b]absolutely nothing about the somatic "genetic potential" of the average human in the MU. [/B]

Well I tell you what lets analyse wat you have said.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They don't. They're human. H. sapiens sapiens. Ordinary people. A small number have evolved into a new subspecies Homo sapiens superior. A small number have latent X-gene. A small number have been enhanced by external mutagens. But the ordinary MU or DCU human is still just human.

This statement implies that most humans are ordinary, but if they are why was this said?

Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien Celestials

If you make the statement such and such school has potential in physics does this mean most of them or a minority? This statement implies that most of them have potential. The sentence does not use the word some or a few it makes a statement about humans in general, therefore most human beings have greater genetic potential and this potential is the ability to have powers.

Furthermore evolution in this incidence does not really have to be a factor, because the Kree did not wait for human beings to evolve they experimented on them at the present time.

Im sure you will find some loop hole.