Revan vs DE sidious

Originally posted by Kadesh
Is it true that ROTJ sidious is 15% stronger than ROTS sidious?
Because he was studying holocrons during the 19 year gap as FOC proved and it made him stronger

and wouldnt that make vader 95% of ROTS sidious?

Exact figures are tough to toss around without proof.

What we do know:

Sidious, as of TPM, is more powerful than Bane, or any others that came after him.
Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith, and I believe that this is during the ROTS Era.
Sidious left all the legalities of the Empire to his underlings so that he could study the holocrons at the Jedi Temple, and basically had the galaxies resources to study from. He studied for 19 years.
Vader is 80% of that Sidious, who has an extra 20 years of study where he "thoroughly dedicates himself to the study of the dark side of the force." (Ultimate Visual Guide)

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Exact figures are tough to toss around without proof.

What we do know:

Sidious, as of TPM, is more powerful than Bane, or any others that came after him.
Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith, and I believe that this is during the ROTS Era.
Sidious left all the legalities of the Empire to his underlings so that he could study the holocrons at the Jedi Temple, and basically had the galaxies resources to study from. He studied for 19 years.
Vader is 80% of that Sidious, who has an extra 20 years of study where he "thoroughly dedicates himself to the study of the dark side of the force." (Ultimate Visual Guide)

The reason why i said Rotj sidious might be 15% stronger than his ROTS counterpart is because

1) The NEC was referring to sidious as of ROTS being the strongest
2) FOC proved that palpatine was further studying the holocrons to become more powerful in the dark side of the force, he has an entire museum filled with holocrons on coruscant,
3)RODV may very well back this up because all sidious did was stay in his office, i cant remember what they said he did but logic would point out he must have did something
and Lightsnake pointed out that he was studying the holocrons.

Now, GL stated vader is 80% of sidious as of ROTJ whom is slightly more powerful than ROTS sidious, he knew the force drain techniques and ancient techniques as well, By the OT he even killed nearly an army of storm troopers in his room.

And if vader being 80% of rotj sidious whom rotj sidious is already clearly stronger than ROTS sidious wouldnt it make vader between 90-95% of ROTS sidious?

Yes you are right however it is hard to guage this but what im doing is an estimation

So my conclusion is that vader would be the 2nd most powerful sith lord. He has a dark side feat which he could create Spheres of energy and hurl them at his enemies , a force power known has "Destruction Orb" Which he demonstrated in Sotme,

The excuse that SOTME is not canon dies out because its events were recorded in the NEC,

About the lightning thing there is no contradiction, because SW insider stated that he was using a weapon

So how does Revan fit into all this? I haven't seen his name for a while.

About Vader being 80% of Vader, GL most likely was referring to force potential; he wouldn't assign a figure to represent combat prowess, it's not something that can be mathematically calculated, force potential on the other hand can, thanks to midi-chlorians. Could you maybe provide the entire passage Lightsnake?

He was not. Get over it

Here's one bit of it:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/the_cult_of_darth_vader/page/2

It's not there, and did you just happen to ignore this:

GL most likely was referring to force potential; he wouldn't assign a figure to represent combat prowess, it's not something that can be mathematically calculated, force potential on the other hand can, thanks to midi-chlorians.

Assigning a figure to how powerful someone is, is moronic, it's not something Lucas would do.

So, now you claim to know how our pal George thinks?

No, claiming to know how any normal person with a brain thinks...

Nebaris/Planet, what Lucas said was clear, which is backed up in the NEC and god knows how many other sources. Anakin is the chosen one, and Luke possibly has the potential Anakin had, which is why both he and the emperor are trying to convert Luke.

That's not what I was arguing...

You can argue whether or not it is actual power; I don't presume to know, but both options can be argued. The Ultimate Visual guide says that "despite the fact that much of his body was replaced by machine components after his battle against Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar, Vader retains an incredibly high count of midichlorians."

Being 80% of Sidious still puts him ahead of everybody of the PT era with the exception of Yoda.

It depends how you interpret what GL was saying, potential really doesn't mean too much if it hasn't been unlocked..

luke is what anakin should have been i read, the guy does things that are just.........DAMN is the only word i can use to define them, making black holes, walking on lava, thats all just...........DAMN.

Actually Gl was referring to Vaders power and thats G-Canon, vader > bane vader >exar kun because why? Palpatine is the ruler and he is only slightly stronger than vader by 20%

And do i have to point out that he is 80% of ROTJ sidious whom is stronger that his ROTS self? That makes vader 90-95% of ROTS wouldnt it? FOC backs up that palpatine grew more powerful by ROTJ

Again, GL most likely was referring to force potential; he wouldn't assign a figure to represent combat prowess, it's not something that can be mathematically calculated, force potential on the other hand can, thanks to midi-chlorians.

To argue that Vader is more powerful than Bane or Exar Kun is ridiculous.

Acording to GL it is true that vader > any ancient sith being the 2nd most powerful sith lord in the galaxy, several novels pointed it out

For gods sake in Empires end the ancient sith saluted vader by building a throne for him

Proof? They asked palpatine "Emperor of numberless worlds , Lord Vaders throne lies empty, have you come to take his place?"

This exact quote pretty much closes any cases you assume that it is force potential

"Darth Vader was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

The keyword is strength of the emperor

Thats G-canon and it rules out vader is the second strongest sith lord in the galaxy, Remember this is 80% Of rotj sidious whom is stronger than ROTS sidious, that means vader would be 90-95% of ROTS sidious who was already declared the strongest sith lord in history(sorry to keep repeating this)

And therefore with G-canon, vader > exar kun vader > the ancient sith

Acording to GL it is true that vader > any ancient sith being the 2nd most powerful sith lord in the galaxy, several novels pointed it out

Great..

So he was the second most powerful sith out of a whole order of sith lords consisting of two whole sith. 😱

Seriously Kadesh, this argument is very illogical, how does being the second most powerful sith at the time make him the second most powerful ever?

For gods sake in Empires end the ancient sith saluted vader by building a throne for him

Proof? They asked palpatine "Emperor of numberless worlds , Lord Vaders throne lies empty, have you come to take his place?"

And that proves that they built a throne for him? OK...
All that proves is that Vader had a throne, I don't quite see what you're seeing, where does that indicate that they built a throne for Vader.

This exact quote pretty much closes any cases you assume that it is force potential

"Darth Vader was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

The keyword is strength of the emperor

1. Where did you get that quote from? Not that I can't work round it, but I don't think the quote exists, 'it was believed that he had roughly 80% of Sidious strength'? That doesn't sound right, something like GL factually stating that he was 80% of Sidious, or saying that 'it was believed that he was very close to being as strong as the emporer' would sound right, but you're telling me that people in the SW universe actually believed that he was 80% of Sidious? Who would believe that in that way? People would actually think that he was 80% of Sidious? Who would know enough about the two of them to give a direct figure that compares them like that?

It just doesn't sound right, I'm sorry but if you got it from wookiepedia, I'm not believing it. The quote that you just provided is completely different to the one Lightsnake did, and Wookiepedia has been known to be unreliable, given the fact that anyone can edit it, there was even a wookiepedia administrator at SW.com who was telling us that it was reliable about 70% of the time, but unreliable about 30% of the time. So can you please give me your source?

2. Keywords = 'was believed'. As in, it was believed by people inside the SW universe, who are 100% fallible, and who might not necessarily understand exactly how strong Vader and Sidious are in comparison like we do.

3. Even if that quote is correct, and even if it was directly coming from GL, GL most likely would be referring to force potential; he wouldn't assign a figure to represent combat prowess, it's not something that can be mathematically calculated, force potential on the other hand can, thanks to midi-chlorians. 'Strength of the emporer' doesn't change that.

4. Even if the quote exists, and came directly from GL, and works your way, this is RotS Sidious that it is referring to (is it not?), who is not the most powerful sith lord ever. He only becomes that by DE.

5. You seem to be of the belief that RotJ and even RotS Sidious is the most powerful sith ever. This is not the case, it has been proven that others are more powerful, all the arguments supporting that they are the most powerful have been flawed and disproven. Sidious only becomes the arguably most powerful sith ever by DE, but it's not like he's leagues above everyone else. Nihilus himself is imo, stronger, and Bane, Exar Kun and Revan are all likely pretty close to him too.

Thats G-canon and it rules out vader is the second strongest sith lord in the galaxy, Remember this is 80% Of rotj sidious whom is stronger than ROTS sidious, that means vader would be 90-95% of ROTS sidious who was already declared the strongest sith lord in history(sorry to keep repeating this)

Most of these points have already been covered, but where did you get from that, that it was RotJ Sidious that was being referred to? It seems to be speaking in respect of the time shortly after the Mustafar incident.
But even if the quote works your way, and it refers to RotJ Sidious, RotJ Sidious is still not the most powerful sith ever.

And therefore with G-canon, vader > exar kun

I'm sorry, but no. Firstly, you'll need to prove that the quote is genuine, and then you'll have to work around the many flaws I pointed out in your argument to have a case. You won't be able to, your argument is flawed, Vader is not as strong as you think he is.

Originally posted by Sexyback

Seriously Kadesh, this argument is very illogical, how does being the second most powerful sith [b]at the time make him the second most powerful ever? [/B]

Originally posted by Sexyback

And that proves that they built a throne for him? OK...
All that proves is that Vader had a throne, I don't quite see what you're seeing, where does that indicate that they built a throne for Vader.

Originally posted by Sexyback

1. Where did you get that quote from? Not that I can't work round it, but I don't think the quote exists,

Originally posted by Sexyback

'it was believed that he had roughly 80% of Sidious strength'? That doesn't sound right, something like GL factually stating that he was 80% of Sidious, or saying that 'it was believed that he was very close to being as strong as the emporer' would sound right, but you're telling me that people in the SW universe actually believed that he was 80% of Sidious? Who would believe that in that way? People would actually think that he was [b]80% of Sidious? Who would know enough about the two of them to give a direct figure that compares them like that?
[/B]

Originally posted by Sexyback

It just doesn't sound right, I'm sorry but if you got it from wookiepedia, I'm not believing it.

Originally posted by Sexyback

The quote that you just provided is completely different to the one Lightsnake did,

Originally posted by Sexyback

and Wookiepedia has been known to be unreliable,

Originally posted by Sexyback

given the fact that anyone can edit it, there was even a wookiepedia administrator at SW.com who was telling us that it was reliable about 70% of the time, but unreliable about 30% of the time. So can you please give me your source?

Originally posted by Sexyback

2. Keywords = 'was believed'. As in, it was believed by people inside the SW universe, who are 100% fallible,

Originally posted by Sexyback

and who might not necessarily understand exactly how strong Vader and Sidious are in comparison like we do.

Originally posted by Sexyback

3. Even if that quote is correct, and even if it was directly coming from GL, GL most likely would be referring to force potential; he wouldn't assign a figure to represent combat prowess, it's not something that can be mathematically calculated, force potential on the other hand can, thanks to midi-chlorians. 'Strength of the emporer' doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Sexyback

4. Even if the quote exists, and came directly from GL, and works your way, this is RotS Sidious that it is referring to (is it not?), who is [b]not the most powerful sith lord ever. He only becomes that by DE.
[/B]

Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful sith lord in history

Originally posted by Sexyback

5. You seem to be of the belief that RotJ and even RotS Sidious is the most powerful sith ever. This is not the case, it has been proven that others are more powerful, all the arguments supporting that they are the most powerful have been flawed and disproven.

Originally posted by Sexyback

Sidious only becomes the arguably most powerful sith ever by DE, but it's not like he's leagues above everyone else. Nihilus himself is imo, stronger, and Bane, Exar Kun and Revan are all likely pretty close to him too.

Originally posted by Sexyback

Most of these points have already been covered, but where did you get from that, that it was RotJ Sidious that was being referred to? It seems to be speaking in respect of the time shortly after the Mustafar incident.
But even if the quote works your way, and it refers to RotJ Sidious, RotJ Sidious is still not the most powerful sith ever.

Originally posted by Sexyback

I'm sorry, but no. Firstly, you'll need to prove that the quote is genuine,

Originally posted by Sexyback

and then you'll have to work around the many flaws I pointed out in your argument to have a case. You won't be able to, your argument is flawed, Vader is not as strong as you think he is.