Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread

Originally posted by leonidas
CAN an m-body house a concept's life force? i've always believed it was possible that it COULD

"could" is not good enough.

How can you have even the slightest doubt,

when you saw an M-body Create Realities from nothingness, TWICE!

The Second time it was a Multiverse!

Originally posted by leonidas
the level of power that can be placed into an m-body is variable and open to the abstract to decide. the prime manifester said the same thing.

Not only do I not agree with this because of opinions,

this is simply not true.

Anthropomorpho has NEVER said that about the Power of the Concept.

"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"

"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"

The Fractals claim to have some freedom in the Form of the M-body, and NOTHING else.

Originally posted by leonidas
actually, i don't agree. my stance has ALWAYS remained the same.

If you say so friend.

Originally posted by leonidas
but i'm gald yours has altered, if only somewhat. now if i just knew what it has altered to . . .

When the Sentience and Life-Force of ANY Abstract Concept becomes an M-body,

that M-body becomes the Sentience and Life-Force of said Concept.

Originally posted by leonidas
still don't get this when you say the m-body is the concept and sentience and it was cast into oblivion. what was left to assume?

That's because it's YOU who continues to say that the Concept was tossed,

when it was only the Sentience.

The Concept was usurped by Maelstrom.

Originally posted by leonidas
same place eternity's sentience was when thanos took over it -- it was subsumed by the person who overthrew it. the m-body of anomaly was irrelevent. the concept still existed. malestrom usurped it and took possession for a time of the concept. when he was killed, the still existing concept reassumed its role, made a new m-body and fought quasar.

i don't see how you can explain it any other way.

I addressed this in my thread.

The M-body is the Sentience & Life-Force of the Abstract being.

Kill the M-body - you kill the Sentience -

the Life-Force and Concept stays behind.

Like in the Anomaly - Maelstrom case.

Like in the Thanos - Eternity case.

Which is probably why the Anomaly returned to it's position Off Panel

once Maelstrom was gone.

Same with Thanos, once he lost his position as the Sentience,

Eternity Off Panel returned to his position.

Now on the other hand

Erase the Concept from existence

and Sentience - Power and Concept become Non-Existent ...

Death is ERASED across The Entire Multiverse (retconned to Universe)

excerpt from OHOTMU v5 (2006)

"Beyonder made Death Cease to Exist"

by Erasing the M-BODY

Mr M, do I understand you correctly?

You're saying that if an M-Body of said character(s) is killed, then it's life-force and concept, (what it represented), are still left "alive"...... Kind of like a ghost or Spirit...

But if a being were to erase not only the M-Body, but also the concept in which that M-Body represented, then whatever it was/represented, becomes nonexistent....

Basically kill the body, kill the ghost/spirit, and nothing will remain of what the body once was, and what it represented.

Is that correct?

Originally posted by Galan007
Mr M, do I understand you correctly?

You're saying that if an M-Body of said character(s) is killed, then it's life-force and concept, (what it represented), are still left "alive"...... Kind of like a ghost or Spirit...

But if a being were to erase not only the M-Body, but also the concept in which that M-Body represented, then whatever it was/represented, becomes nonexistent....

Basically kill the body, kill the ghost/spirit, and nothing will remain of what the body once was, and what it represented.

Is that correct?

Originally posted by Galan007
Mr M, do I understand you correctly?

You're saying that if an M-Body of said character(s) is killed, then it's life-force and concept, (what it represented), are still left "alive"...... Kind of like a ghost or Spirit...

But if a being were to erase not only the M-Body, but also the concept in which that M-Body represented, then whatever it was/represented, becomes nonexistent....

Basically kill the body, kill the ghost/spirit, and nothing will remain of what the body once was, and what it represented.

Is that correct?

I thought I made my self clear.

Whether you agree or not, atleast you see what I'm saying.

Thanx G, 😄

I thought it was me confusing the situation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I thought I made my self clear.

Whether you agree or not, atleast you see what I'm saying.

Thanx G,

I thought it was me confusing the situation.

I just wanted to make sure the idea I had in my head, was what you were really explaining. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
Actually it makes perfect sense to me....

I just wanted to make sure the idea I had in my head, was what you were really explaining. 🙂

A couple of other examples:

The M-body getting Erased from Existence

"the number of Universes in the Multiverse shall be one Less than Infinity"

Or Death ... Again

NO MORE DEATH! (no one can die again)

Why?

Cause the M-BODY was Nullified/Erased. 🙂

Check this out yall.

The actual UNIVERSE materializing Into an ETERNITY M-BODY before Strange

This is the best evidence I have to prove that the M-body does indeed contain

the Life-Force of the Universe.

"the Midnight SKY is COLLAPSING ...

FALLING in upon the Earth upon which they stand transfixed"

"EVERY ONE of its STARWORLDS Falling straight down on them!"

"as the Black STUFF of SPACE takes SHAPE ...

a SHAPE Dr Strange knows all too well"

"Towering above the Greenwich Village Skyline, FRAMED against absolute BLANK EMPTINESS, there stands ETERNITY!"

"below the crowds slip from shock into stark, raving fear, as more more of their numbers become AWARE"

In order for the M-body to be shaped,

Reality itself (the Universe) Warps and Morphs into Eternity

Is it even remotely possible to dispute that the actual Universe can condense

into an M-body?

❌

Genis shoots Entropy's M-body

and the M-body Explodes into a Multiverse

ENTROPY becomes ETERNITY!

(Not because the M-body IS the actual Multiverse,

but because it Contains the Life Force of a Multiverse)

Backside Front Page:

"Entropy is the Son of Eternity, the Cosmic Being whose Essence Encompasses the ENTIRETY of the MULTIVERSE ... Entropy has enlisted Captain Marvel in a Quest to Destroy His Father, ... Eternity and End All Creation"

Originally posted by leonidas
here's where we still differ. you say the mbody BECOMES the essence. so if it (the mbody) is destroyed, the concept should be destroyed. or am i misrepresenting your view?

Look at my example using the Beyonder scans (or the other scans)

Originally posted by leonidas
i say the abstract places part of itself into the mbody to interact with physical beings.

I disagree.

Originally posted by leonidas
the proof i use are these: we have quasar asking an mbody where it's spiritual essence is.

That M-body didn't even acknowledge Quasar,

that was a Past Reflection:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"Events which occur within the Dimension of Manifestations remain Represented there,

as the Realm exists Outside of normal time, this enables visitors to witness Past Events"

Originally posted by leonidas
even when quasar SEES the comatose eternity to which he was directed, the ESSENCE is within the mbody -- which makes sense because they were OUTSIDE the universe. the spiritual essence though was bound within the framework of the mbody.

Quasar wasn't directed by anyone, he just travelled until he found the

most recent M-body of Eternity.

We definitely agree on the rest of what you said here.

Originally posted by leonidas
quasar never DID find the essence. gamora had to go looking for it.

True,

but where did Gamora go looking for the Essence?

Inside the M-body of Eternity.

Originally posted by leonidas
you don't think beyonder destroyed the m-body, but my interpretation is that he did.

It was a trick.

Protege & the Beyonder are insects in Scathan's hand:

Suddenly Protege & the Beyonder increase size (as big as Scathan) and seemingly "destroy" Eternity

Next Panel - Protege & the Beyonder are insects in Scathan's hand AGAIN!

"We reverted back as if nothing happened ... Indeed Nothing has"

Eternity gives them a False explanation of why that happened:

And gets called out on the LIE!

"LIAR ... you're all afraid of me and what I can do ...

I am the most powerful being there ever was, I will surpass you all"

Interestingly enough, the LT doesn't dispute that Eternity was LYING,

only that TOAA is the only one above him.

Just like Eternity LIED about the Infinity Watch to LT,

just like Eternity LIED to Warlock about the IG.

Originally posted by leonidas
eternity himself says he is a visualization.

Right,

a "Visualization" that made Thanos the actual Universe:

"Thanos has now USURPED Eternity's rightful position as the CENTER of ALL REALITY"

There's no way around this friend.

Eternity can't be trusted when his position is threatened:

"Eternity ... before the Gems Resurfaced you were the unchallenged lord of ALL That Is"

"Dispersed the Gems no longer threaten your Supremacy on this Plane,

yet you still worry"

"it is Not the IW that concerns you as much as Your Own Desires"

"YES ... Desire strongly motivates my actions"

😆

Eternity lasted that entire issue trying to LIE to the LT,

in order to get his hands on the Gems.

Originally posted by leonidas
anomaly exists after its mbody is cast into oblivion.

Because only the Sentience was cast,

NOT the Life-Force of the Concept.

The Life-Force was taken by Maelstrom, thus making him the New Sentience:

Here

Maelstrom killed the Sentience of the Concept Anomaly by killing the M-body, which was the totality of the Sentience and it's Power.

Maelstrom usurped the position as the New Sentience,

at the same time adding it's power to his by killing the M-body.

Now,

Maelstrom Replaced the Totality of the Concept of Anomaly by killing it's M-body,

how is this M-body not the Abstract's Totality? 😕

Totality of a Concept = Sentience plus Life-Force/Power

The Concept was not affected in it's existence,

but the Full Power of the Anomaly was in that M-body Maelstrom killed.

Here's Oblivion acknowledges Maelstrom as the Anomaly,

Here's Maelstrom referencing some of his abilities due to his Power as the Anomaly

My contention is that the M-body is the Totality of the Abstracts Sentience and Power.

Originally posted by leonidas
other examples are in this thread of mbodies being shown to be meaningless to the concept as a whole.

I've yet to find one.

Originally posted by leonidas
i still say 2 eternity mbodies were present simultaneously when gamora freed the essence from its binding -- impossible by your definition.

Of course it's impossible.

The other M-body (which is actually the Sentience) was INSIDE the Eternity M-body.

Now had you showed me an instance where Two M-body's are existing simultaneously separated from each other,

I would concede.

But this isn't the case.

Originally posted by leonidas
we also see multiple mbodies exist in the dimension of m where time is meaningless.

Past Reflections, nothing more.

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"Events which occur within the Dimension of Manifestations remain Represented there,

as the Realm exists Outside of normal time, this enables visitors to witness Past Events"

It's not just an Official Marvel established fact,

Here's Anthropomorpho himself saying it.

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of Every Manifestation we have ever done"

Quasar even asks,

"Could you Point us to a RECENT One"

As the older ones would be meaningless Past Reflections.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't get this either -- the mbody was in a coma -- utterly immobile -- when the sentience, independent of the body, struggled to be free of its binding. if they worked as you say, the essence would have been comatose as well and unable to struggle because the mbody is just a manifestation OF the essence. a comatose body would have been the result of a comatose essence. it wasn't. the essence was even depicted as being visually different in appearance from any version of an eternity mbody.

If I'm bed ridden with a disease and my Immune System is battling the

disease within,

does that make my Immune System a separate Mr M?

❌

Originally posted by leonidas
not everyone will make that type of admission. ironically, i think at times it CAN viewed as the totality or ACTUAL universe -- ie -- if an artist is showing us a view of the universe from OUTSIDE the universe.

Dr Strange was Inside the Universe, and Eternity materialized

by morphing the Universe itself into an M-body

Originally posted by leonidas
we're closer now in our opinions . . .

i'll still say that the mbody is not NECESSARILY the totality, though i do and have said it is not impossible imo for the mbody to BE the totality, as you interpret it.

I respect your opinion.

Originally posted by leonidas
but if you are right, then ANY time an mbody is destroyed the concept should be destroyed.

If you read what I posted carefully and thoroughly,

you'll see that's not what I said.

You'll have to do some work this time, I posted my opinion on the matter once

and a fellow poster immediately understood what I was saying.

I've told you several times, and you're still misunderstanding me.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've never seen the complete destruction of an entire concept accept for the beyonder's wiping out of multi-death and perhaps the destruction of the universe. but again, those are easily explained -- if the universe is destroyed obviously eternity and his essence are snuffed out -- as for multi-death think the m-body CAN represent the totality -- it just doesn't NECESSARILY have to.

Universal Death was wiped out Twice, by Nullifying the M-body.

Eternity's M-body was erased by Korvac - by Galactus - by Entropy/Genis

to name a few ... all resulted in the actual Universe being Erased aswell.

In one case it was the Multiverse.

you continue to contradict yourself and your position:

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]Kill the M-body - you kill the Sentience -

the Life-Force and Concept stays behind.[/B] [/B]

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Beyonder made Death Cease to Exist"

by Erasing the M-BODY [/B]

so, kill the mbody the concept stays, then in the next quote, he killed the concept by killing the mbody . . .?

Originally posted by Mr Master
"could" is not good enough.

How can you have even the slightest doubt,

when you saw an M-body Create Realities from nothingness, TWICE!

The Second time it was a Multiverse!

could implying it does not ALWAYS do so. 🙂

Not only do I not agree with this because of opinions,

this is simply not true.

Anthropomorpho has NEVER said that about the Power of the Concept.

QUASAR: "How much input does a being have with how they're represented?"

ANTHRO: "It varies. As much as they want. Some entities have very specific requirements . . . others give us freer reign."

you think what? the input the abstracts have is restricted ONLY to their . . . physical appearance? 😕 so you're saying an abstract has NO say -- despite what was said above -- regarding the amount of power they place in the representation vessel . . .? again, i can't see how it's possible for you to say that based on what was said between the 2. alas, c'est la vie. 😬

If you say so friend.

✅

When the Sentience and Life-Force of ANY Abstract Concept becomes an M-body,

that M-body becomes the Sentience and Life-Force of said Concept.

what's the difference between the essence/life force/sentience and the 'concept'? in marvel, concepts HAVE essences, life forces that can and have been snuffed out.

That's because it's YOU who continues to say that the Concept was tossed,

when it was only the Sentience.

The Concept was usurped by Maelstrom.

actually, that was me saying what you implied by saying the mbody was the totality of any concept -- which would imply the conceptual nature as well as there is no varying degrees of totality. 🙂 but i think you've since changed and no longer feel the mbody IS a totality. rather you seem to say it is the essence, but that this essence is somehow now seperate from the 'conceptual' nature of the entity. i'm not sure how you came to that conclusion though . . .

if eternity's essence had been slain, eternity would die and the universe with it, imo. kill the essence, kill the concept. if not, what keeps the concept alive . . .?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Check this out yall.

The actual UNIVERSE materializing Into an [B]ETERNITY M-BODY before Strange

This is the best evidence I have to prove that the M-body does indeed contain

the Life-Force of the Universe.

"the Midnight SKY is COLLAPSING ...

FALLING in upon the Earth upon which they stand transfixed"

"EVERY ONE of its STARWORLDS Falling straight down on them!"

"as the Black STUFF of SPACE takes SHAPE ...

a SHAPE Dr Strange knows all too well"

"Towering above the Greenwich Village Skyline, FRAMED against absolute BLANK EMPTINESS, there stands ETERNITY!"

"below the crowds slip from shock into stark, raving fear, as more more of their numbers become AWARE"

In order for the M-body to be shaped,

Reality itself (the Universe) Warps and Morphs into Eternity

Is it even remotely possible to dispute that the actual Universe can condense

into an M-body?

❌ [/B]

i'm actually not sure what this is trying to prove . . . the skyline remained, so it wasn't the whole universe. but even if it was . . .? 😕

i already said eternity COULD be the universe. my contention as always has been that it is not ALWAYS the 'whole' universe. you used to think otherwise and used this repeatedly as proof that he WAS the 'whole universe'. now that you agree he is not (or at least is not ALWAYS), i don't see the point in showing this. 😬

Originally posted by leonidas
you continue to contradict yourself and your position:

Or you continue to twist my words.

Enough is enough already. 😠

But seriously, if you continue to do it, I'll runforhills

Originally posted by leonidas
so, kill the mbody the concept stays, then in the next quote, he killed the concept by killing the mbody . . .?

Again

Originally posted by Mr Master
The M-body is the Sentience & Life-Force of the Abstract being.

Kill the M-body - you kill the Sentience -

the Life-Force and Concept stays behind.

Like in the Anomaly - Maelstrom case.

Like in the Thanos - Eternity case.

Now on the other hand

Erase the Concept from existence

and Sentience - Power and Concept become Non-Existent ...

"Beyonder made Death Cease to Exist"

by Erasing the M-BODY

I spaced it out for you, you can't miss what I'm saying Again.

Be thorough please. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Look at my example using the Beyonder scans (or the other scans)

i get you're somehow seperating concept from essence/life force. i just don't get how, why or by what evidence.

That M-body didn't even acknowledge Quasar,

that was a Past Reflection:

it stared straight at him. if you don't want to see that as acknowledgement, okay.

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"Events which occur within the Dimension of Manifestations remain Represented there,

as the Realm exists Outside of normal time, this enables visitors to witness Past Events"

obviously incorrect because lt DID act in a manner that was different from the original procedings and what's more brought in a NEW manifestation to the procedings -- anomaly.

True,

but where did Gamora go looking for the Essence?

Inside the M-body of Eternity.

again, they were OUTSIDE the universe -- so of course they needed to enter the universe to find the essence. i've said that in the past as well. to look elsewhere would be to say the essence of the universe lay OUTSIDE the universe. which obviously makes no sense.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Or you continue to twist my words.

Enough is enough already. 😠

But seriously, if you continue to do it, I'll runforhills

Again

I spaced it out for you, you can't miss what I'm saying Again.

Be thorough please. 🙂

😂

i'm not twisting anything, my friend. they are YOUR words. i'm trying to make heads or tails from them. where does it difefrentiate ANYWHERE in your scans between killing the essence and killing the concept? seriously. i have no idea where the idea of seperating them comes from. this is a new stance from you -- one i don't fully understand.