Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was a trick.

Protege & the Beyonder are insects in Scathan's hand:

Suddenly Protege & the Beyonder increase size (as big as Scathan) and seemingly "destroy" Eternity

Next Panel - Protege & the Beyonder are insects in Scathan's hand AGAIN!

"We reverted back as if nothing happened ... [B]Indeed Nothing has"

Eternity gives them a False explanation of why that happened:

And gets called out on the LIE!

"LIAR ... you're all afraid of me and what I can do ...

I am the most powerful being there ever was, I will surpass you all"

Interestingly enough, the LT doesn't dispute that Eternity was LYING,

only that TOAA is the only one above him.

Just like Eternity LIED about the Infinity Watch to LT,

just like Eternity LIED to Warlock about the IG. [/B]

you can say he was lying all you'd like, but . . . why bother lying? protege was muzzled and dealt with by a friggin' celestial? and through the whole arc, protege was a spoiled baby. he screamed liar because he could not believe he was not powerful enough to destroy eternity.

you say he lied, i disagree. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
QUASAR: "How much input does a being have with how they're represented?"

ANTHRO: "It varies. As much as they want. Some entities have very specific requirements . . . others give us freer reign."

you think what? the input the abstracts have is restricted ONLY to their . . . physical appearance? so you're saying an abstract has NO say -- despite what was said above -- regarding the amount of power they place in the representation vessel . . .?

Where is he mentioning anything about "amount of Power?" dontgetit

"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"

"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"

Nothing about power

In fact,

Ol' Anthropomorpho even gives Quasar an example:

The physical appearance of Mistress Love changes. 😎

You'll have to show me where the "amount of power" line is from,

cause it sure ain't from Quasar #37 friend.

Originally posted by leonidas
[b] again, i can't see how it's possible for you to say that based on what was said between the 2. alas, c'est la vie.

Again, I can't see where you're getting,

"despite what was said above -- regarding the amount of power they place in the representation vessel"

hum

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right,

a "Visualization" that made Thanos the actual Universe:

[B]"Thanos has now USURPED Eternity's rightful position as the CENTER of ALL REALITY"

There's no way around this friend.

Eternity can't be trusted when his position is threatened:

"Eternity ... before the Gems Resurfaced you were the unchallenged lord of ALL That Is"

"Dispersed the Gems no longer threaten your Supremacy on this Plane,

yet you still worry"

"it is Not the IW that concerns you as much as Your Own Desires"

"YES ... Desire strongly motivates my actions"

😆

Eternity lasted that entire issue trying to LIE to the LT,

in order to get his hands on the Gems. [/B]

he was talking about the blast, imo. and even saying he WAS lying, why would he lie and say he was a visualization . . .? 😕 makes no sense. he could lie about the extent of the ig's power over him i suppose, but why claim to be a visualization? seems like quite a stretch . . .

heheh. gotta run.

talk later, bro.

😉

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thanos only loses (with "Supreme" power) cause he wants to so ...

What's with this rant guy?

This is unseemingly for you.

All you have to do is read more comics and things make more sense, (most times) 🙂

I am reading more, Mr. M. You know, I will never believe Thanos won over LT. God did embarass Thanos. Good scans as always. Just ordered some back issues 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
what's the difference between the essence/life force/sentience and the 'concept'?

I don't know how you came up with this mix up from what I posted,

but I been noticing you're not paying to much attention to my posts.

Who said there was a difference?

The Abstract Concept = Sentience & Life-Force

Originally posted by leonidas
in marvel, concepts HAVE essences, life forces that can and have been snuffed out.

And who said otherwise?

I said,

When the Sentience and Life-Force of ANY Abstract Concept becomes an M-body,

that M-body becomes the Sentience and Life-Force of said Concept.

Originally posted by leonidas
actually, that was me saying what you implied by saying the mbody was the totality of any concept -- which would imply the conceptual nature as well as there is no varying degrees of totality. 🙂 but i think you've since changed and no longer feel the mbody IS a totality. rather you seem to say it is the essence, but that this essence is somehow now seperate from the 'conceptual' nature of the entity. i'm not sure how you came to that conclusion though . . .

You're not sure because you continue to twist my words. .. Again.

For the last time:

The totality of the Concept is the Sentience and Life-Force.

If you somehow understand this as the Essence and the Concept being separated,

I don't know how much simpler to explain it. 😕

Originally posted by leonidas
if eternity's essence had been slain, eternity would die and the universe with it, imo.

I agree,

but only if there isn't a Sentient being of enough power there that can replace it (IMO)

Originally posted by leonidas
kill the essence, kill the concept. if not, what keeps the concept alive . . .?

IMO - the Concept would die too, but not instantly.

This is why when the Entity left the Universe,

the Universe lingered for a moment, and then collapse because there was no Force to sustain it.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm actually not sure what this is trying to prove . . . the skyline remained, so it wasn't the whole universe. but even if it was . . .?

Right,

the Greenwich Village Skyline should make the difference between

the Universe and not.

Originally posted by leonidas
i already said eternity COULD be the universe. my contention as always has been that it is not ALWAYS the 'whole' universe. you used to think otherwise and used this repeatedly as proof that he WAS the 'whole universe'. now that you agree he is not (or at least is not ALWAYS), i don't see the point in showing this.

Actually I never said Eternity is not the whole Universe,

I said Eternity like all Abstract Entitys, is the Life-Force of their respective Concept.

By this I mean,

Eternity is the walking Life-Force of the Universe,

and thus can pull Planets and Galaxies out of his M-body

Earth being plucked from out of Eternity's M-body.

Beings can enter the M-body of Eternity and end up inside the Actual Universe

Beings can Exit the Actual Universe, by popping out of Eternity's M-body:

Here is the actual SCAR in the actual Universe

"the One Who Knows (Stakar and Aleta) Enters the SCAR of Eternity" (Universe)

"the Journey through the Scar is at an end, let's see what lies Beyond Eternity"

When they go Beyond the Scar of Universe, they exit Eternity (who IS the Universe)

Eternity yanking a Galaxy out of his M-body

Originally posted by leonidas
i get you're somehow seperating concept from essence/life force. i just don't get how, why or by what evidence.

You're still not understanding me?

I'm disappointed. 🙁

Originally posted by leonidas
it stared straight at him. if you don't want to see that as acknowledgement, okay.

Or it could be that Quasar was all up in his face, and it seemed that way.

Originally posted by leonidas
again, they were OUTSIDE the universe -- so of course they needed to enter the universe to find the essence. i've said that in the past as well. to look elsewhere would be to say the essence of the universe lay OUTSIDE the universe. which obviously makes no sense.

This would mean you're calling the M-body the Universe.

Wonderful, so we finally agree. cheers

Originally posted by leonidas
obviously incorrect because lt DID act in a manner that was different from the original procedings and what's more brought in a NEW manifestation to the procedings -- anomaly.

Actually, that was the Living Tribunal.

And the LT is everywhere simultaneously:

I said it before that the only non reflection IMO up in there was the LT.

Because he's everywhere at once.

I could also speculate and say,

that those Past Reflections contain an iota of an iota of the original Concept,

in order to continuously & meaningless replay these Past events.

Which brings to mind,

I think that Quasar Arc plays itself into stupidity. (IMO)

My main reason

We saw 3 separate Timelines taking place within (the Dimension of Manifestations) that included 3 M-bodys of Eternity.

There are ONLY TWO Manifestations of Eternity during the ENTIRE issue of Quasar #37, of AUGUST 1992,

This One:

When Warlock was on Trial, which took place in FEBRUARY 92' (Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1)

Here's the ORIGINAL EVENT taking place in FEBRUARY 92' (Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1)

And this other Manifestation of Eternity in Quasar #37, of AUGUST 1992:

Of the Comatose Eternity, which took place in Aug. 92' (Infinity War #3)

Here's the ORIGINAL taking place in AUG. 92' (Infinity War #3)

HOW are these TWO SEPARATE events taking place at the same time, when these events are separated by 5 MONTHS and have NO relations whatsoever?

In FACT, the only correspondence of these TWO events with THIS issue of Quasar #37, is the Comatose Eternity coincidentally. (which is a Cross-Over of the Infinity War Arc)

And I might add, Warlock gave up the Infinity Gems WAY BEFORE Eternity was Comatose by Magus,

so HOW is Quasar bumping into Warlock's TRIAL (who STILL had the Infinity Gauntlet) in Quasar #37 from FEB. 92', which took place 5 MONTHS before Eternity was comatose in Infinity War #3 in AUG. 92'?

Quasar interrupted a TRIAL, that had already taken place.

So these events could not be happening simultaneously, thus the Eternity M-bodys are NOT from the same Timeline, which means there is STILL only ONE Eternity M-body at a time in the Present,

instead of a "PAST Reflection" of Eternity which already took place like the Warlock Trial.

After all, the Prime Manifester of the Fractals said:

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of EVERY MANIFESTATION

we have EVER DONE"

"Well, can you point us to a RECENT One?"

Why is Quasar interested only in finding the RECENT Manifestation of Eternity,

if they are ALL Manifestations of the same Present Eternity?

hum

The Third Eternity M-body of Eternity appears in Quasar #38

This one,

The event with the Beyonder meeting the Abstracts in Secret Wars,

(which took place Originally in May 1984)

and the Trial of Warlock which is also still playing over and over within the Dimension of Manifestation.

How are these events SUPPOSEDLY taking place simulataneously?

No matter the logic, this is PIS to the umph degree, or just plain stupid.

One thing is to go back in time,

but because History is just repeating itself within the Dimension of Manifestation, those are simultaneous events taking place between Comatose Eternity and the Two others?

nah ... that's a cop-out, due to PIS.

It's not your fault, it's the complete PIS of the story attempting to jam down our throats this concept of M-bodys, with a scene that took place 22 Years ago May 1984

and yet, you want to believe it's happening simultaneously with the events of Infinity War which took place in Aug. 1992, 8 Years later?

AND even more hilarious about this whole scene is that when the Cosmics came to the Beyonder they WEREN'T even in the Dimension of Manifestation,

they WERE in a RESTAURANT!

There're still CHAIRS and TABLES there, LOL!

HOW the heck did this turn into a Dimesion of Manifestation moment?

Oh silly PIS Writers of Quasar #37 & part of #38

damn you posts a lot . . . whew . . .

Originally posted by Mr Master
Past Reflections, nothing more.

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"Events which occur within the Dimension of Manifestations [B]remain Represented there,

as the Realm exists Outside of normal time, this enables visitors to witness Past Events"

It's not just an Official Marvel established fact,

Here's Anthropomorpho himself saying it.

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of Every Manifestation we have ever done"

Quasar even asks,

"Could you Point us to a RECENT One"

As the older ones would be meaningless Past Reflections.[/b]

proven incorrect by the lt 'reflection'.

If I'm bed ridden with a disease and my Immune System is battling the

disease within,

does that make my Immune System a separate Mr M?

❌

but you keep saying mbody=sentience. i could also say that if i'm paralyzed my brain contiues to function. though the brain is linked to the body -- as the essence is linked to the mbody -- paralyzing my body does not stop my brain functions. there IS a distinction between mind and body. with physicals, kill the body, kill the brain though. with abstracts, kill the body, the essence remains, capable of forming a new mbody. wish we had that luzury. 🙂

I respect your opinion.

thanks. you know i really only debate to this extent with you anymore . . . 🙂

If you read what I posted carefully and thoroughly,

you'll see that's not what I said.

You'll have to do some work this time, I posted my opinion on the matter once

and a fellow poster immediately understood what I was saying.

🙁 you're right. here's your equation:

Totality of a Concept = Sentience plus Life-Force/Power

and you add this:

My contention is that the M-body is the Totality of the Abstracts Sentience and Power.

taken together you have mbody=concept=sentience+power

if that is true, then it is also true that:

kill/destroy mbody=kill/destroy concept=end of sentience and life force

perhaps i'm just dense, but i don't see how, using that information, throwing anomaly into oblivion does NOT destroy the mbody, which in turn wipes out the rest of your equation. i'm not TRYING to be dense. i just really don't get it. i THOUGHT you were seperating the concept from the mbody, but now i don't think you are. it's . . driving . . . me . . . MADDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

😄

Universal Death was wiped out Twice, by Nullifying the M-body.

beyonder commanded death to appear in its totality. he was beyond death and so could command it to do so. again, i've no problem reconciling that at all.

Eternity's M-body was erased by Korvac - by Galactus - by Entropy/Genis

but they destroyed the entire universe. the artistic rendering of the eternity mbody was merely a tool to SHOW that. any time the universe is destroyed, eternity IS destroyed in its entirety. again, i've never had a problem with that. it's only logical. BUT, what happens when an eternity mbody that has been manifested WITHIN the universe is destroyed . . .? would the entire universe be destroyed then? your new stance would seem to lead me to think you would say no. as i would. 😄

Originally posted by Mr Master
Where is he mentioning anything about "amount of Power?" dontgetit

one of my fave smilies. 😄

he doesn't say 'power'. he does say how much input do they have regarding their REPRESENTATION. again, are you saying the abstract entities, the most powerful beings in creation, can only have input regarding their appearance . . .? dontgetit 😄

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't know how you came up with this mix up from what I posted,

but I been noticing you're not paying to much attention to my posts.

Who said there was a difference?

The Abstract Concept = Sentience & Life-Force

And who said otherwise?

I said,

When the Sentience and Life-Force of ANY Abstract Concept becomes an M-body,

that M-body becomes the Sentience and Life-Force of said Concept.

You're not sure because you continue to twist my words. .. Again.

For the last time:

The totality of the Concept is the Sentience and Life-Force.

If you somehow understand this as the Essence and the Concept being separated,

I don't know how much simpler to explain it. 😕

doh

I agree,

but only if there isn't a Sentient being of enough power there that can replace it (IMO)

or WANTS to replace it. 🙂

IMO - the Concept would die too, but not instantly.

This is why when the Entity left the Universe,

the Universe lingered for a moment, and then collapse because there was no Force to sustain it.

i disagree here, only because the universe never DID die. it condensed, became dormant, whatever word you choose, and was awaiting rebirth. evolutionary said it was sleeping, or implied that was the case. either way, all those terms imply the departed universe was still 'existing'. but, with nothing to 'drive' the abandoned universe, to sustain it, it couldn't sustain itself. that's why i think that scene was symbolic. the mbody was depicting the departure of the sentience of the universe -- not the universe itslef. which is why i say their IS a distinction between essence and mbody. with that in mind, perhaps killing the essence would NOT have killed the concept, but it WOULD have deprived it of all meaning and made it essentially non-existent. it's a strange case. 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right,

the Greenwich Village Skyline should make the difference between

the Universe and not.

er, it IS part of the universe, right . . . 😕 but anyway, i still am not sure why you showed the scan. i don't have a problem, nor do i refute anything it is showing . . .

Actually I never said Eternity is not the whole Universe,

I said Eternity like all Abstract Entitys, is the Life-Force of their respective Concept.

no wonder you keep confusing me and accusing me of twisting your words! damn, bro, i can't keep up! this is what you said to illadelph:

these cats have been thinking I'm saying,

Eternity's M-body is an actual Universe as it's wandering around inside it's own Universe, that's incorrrect.

so now you're saying it's only a universe when we see it from the outside?? that's exactly what I'VE been saying. but if it manifests WITHIN itself it is NOT a full universe?? that means the representation of eternity varies. sometimes it IS the hwole universe, other times it is not. how is that NOT what i've been saying??

seriously, i DO NOT MEAN TO TWIST YOUR WORDS!! BUT THEY KEEP SEEMING TO ME TO CONTRADICT THEMSELVES.

seriously, if any onlooker sees where i'm going wrong, jump in, cuz i'm sure mm is getting as frustrated with me as i am with trying to figure out just what he's saying!!

By this I mean,

Eternity is the walking Life-Force of the Universe,

and thus can pull Planets and Galaxies out of his M-body

just because it is the life force it can pull out galaxies? it can pull out galaxies because as an mbody it IS part of eternity, and hence part of the universe. i don't see why you need to say it is the life force to do so. eternity putting a small amount of his power into an mbody could easily manifest planets and galaxies. power is what is needed, not life force . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
you can say he was lying all you'd like, but . . . why bother lying?

Cause he a proven liar when his position or existence for that matter is threatened.

Eternity Lying

"If this were not merely a Visualization of my Totality,

the Gaintlet's Effect would have been Non-existent

The LIE exposed

"Thanos has now USURPED Eternity's rightful position,

as the CENTER of ALL REALITY"

Eternity Lies again and is exposed again

Eternity can't be trusted when his position is threatened:

"Eternity, before the Gems Resurfaced you were the unchallenged lord of ALL That Is"

"Dispersed the Gems no longer threaten your Supremacy on this Plane,

yet you still worry"

"it is Not the IW that concerns you as much as Your Own Desires"

"YES ... Desire strongly motivates my actions"

😆

Eternity lasted that entire issue trying to LIE to the LT,

in order to get his hands on the Gems.

Originally posted by leonidas
protege was muzzled and dealt with by a friggin' celestial?

uhh, that was like Two whole issues later ...

Originally posted by leonidas
he screamed liar because he could not believe he was not powerful enough to destroy eternity.

you say he lied, i disagree. 🙂

Actually he called Eternity a Liar,

when Eternity finished spewing his sanctimonious garbage.

Eternity gets called out on the LIE!

"LIAR ... you're all afraid of me and what I can do ...

I am the most powerful being there ever was, I will surpass you all"

Interestingly enough, the LT doesn't dispute that Eternity was LYING,

only that TOAA is the only one above him.

Just like Eternity LIED about the Infinity Watch to LT,

just like Eternity LIED to Warlock about the IG.

🙂

night-night. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
damn you posts a lot . . . whew . . .

Your dedication inspires me, and drives me crazy

Originally posted by leonidas
proven incorrect by the lt 'reflection'.

Not exactly,

LT is an Omnipresent being.

Originally posted by leonidas
but you keep saying mbody=sentience. i could also say that if i'm paralyzed my brain contiues to function. though the brain is linked to the body -- as the essence is linked to the mbody -- paralyzing my body does not stop my brain functions. there IS a distinction between mind and body. with physicals, kill the body, kill the brain though.

Actually there are human vegetables who's body has absolutely NO function whatsoever, but the Brain continues on.

Originally posted by leonidas
with abstracts, kill the body, the essence remains, capable of forming a new mbody.

I agree.

But if the M-body is Erased, the Essence is Erased.

Originally posted by leonidas
thanks. you know i really only debate to this extent with you anymore . . . 🙂

I'm actually having fun,

let's just continue to be nice, and we may make legends of ourselves. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
Totality of a Concept = Sentience plus Life-Force/Power

and you add this:

My contention is that the M-body is the Totality of the Abstracts Sentience and Power.

taken together you have mbody=concept=sentience+power

if that is true, then it is also true that:

kill/destroy mbody=kill/destroy concept=end of sentience and life force

schmoll

Ok, I think I know where I'm mixing you up.

1. The Concept has a Sentience and Life-Force.

2. The Concept makes an M-body and transfers it's Sentience and Life-Force to it.

3. Kill the M-body = Kill the Sentience (even if it's momentary) but Not the Life-Force.

4. Erase the M-body = Erase the Sentience & Life-Force for good, until recreated.

Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps i'm just dense, but i don't see how, using that information, throwing anomaly into oblivion does NOT destroy the mbody, which in turn wipes out the rest of your equation.

You're surely not dense. 😏 j/k ...

Anomaly's Sentience was destroyed, not the Concept which = it's Life-Force.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not TRYING to be dense. i just really don't get it. i THOUGHT you were seperating the concept from the mbody, but now i don't think you are. it's . . driving . . . me . . . MADDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

😆

Originally posted by leonidas
beyonder commanded death to appear in its totality. he was beyond death and so could command it to do so. again, i've no problem reconciling that at all.

Cool.

But I must add,

I don't remember Beyonder specifically calling upon "the Totality" of Death.

The same Death that has always been popped up and got erased.

Originally posted by leonidas
but they destroyed the entire universe. the artistic rendering of the eternity mbody was merely a tool to SHOW that. any time the universe is destroyed, eternity IS destroyed in its entirety. again, i've never had a problem with that. it's only logical.

Fair enuff.

Originally posted by leonidas
BUT, what happens when an eternity mbody that has been manifested WITHIN the universe is destroyed . . .? would the entire universe be destroyed then? your new stance would seem to lead me to think you would say no. as i would.

Good and fair question,

What I can't answer I don't.

I don't think it's happened before, that I know of.

But Eternity was inside the Universe when Thanos defeated him, and that resulted in Thanos becoming the entire Universe.

So hm

Originally posted by leonidas
he doesn't say 'power'. he does say how much input do they have regarding their REPRESENTATION. again, are you saying the abstract entities, the most powerful beings in creation, can only have input regarding their appearance . . .?

Well I could speculate and say no, but the bottom line is Anthro didn't say it.

In fact, after he said this:

"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"

"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"

He gives Quasar an example of what he's talking about:

Changes in the Physical appearance of the Abstract. 😄

This looks like an interesting read...

I think I shall...