Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And 5 CCU's took hours upon hours to merge a single universe with a shadowy version.So you see.... CCU fragment > 5 complete CCU's.
This is completely reasonable! duryes
Besides, CCUs have always varied dramatically in power depending on the user. When Namor had one, he couldn't do more than make a big fish monster. When Doom had one, he created his own universe. When one was broken and going crazy, it was going to destroy the multiverse.
^ Job well done leaving out the context of that snipped statement. But in case you did not understand the context: Magus pwning a miniscule manifestation of the UN's power, i.e., a marble-sized nullification sphere is as reliable of a feat as Iron Man pwning a miniscule manifestation of the IG's power, i.e., Star Gem. Especially if you ignore that the artifacts' power was not fully revealed in either instance until a later storyline.
Also fixed:
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ 👆 ... IG ftw in a horrible stomp against a marble-sized nullification sphere, with a thought no less.(as depicted on panel with an [b]incomplete
IG on top of that)😐 [/B]
Originally posted by King KandyYes. Magus actually sought out and used the 5 CCUs and limited their uber-Multiversalpwnerz abilities to such a far degree that even 5 full CCUs could not merge a shadowy version onto a single universe without hours' worth of time. Yes. That doesn't sound dumb at all.
Well, Magus operated the CCUs using machines and this definitely dampened his ability to use them effectively. Also, in Infinity War the heroes of Earth had taken many steps to actively slow down the process of merging.
Originally posted by King KandyBesides, UN has always varied dramatically in power depending on the user. Why, when Quasar used it, he shot a slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere. And when Reed used it, he shot an instantaneous all-encompassing blast that destroyed and recreated the Marvel Multiverse. I totally haven't made this point before. And you guys totally haven't ended up makin the same arguments accidentally when I poke at your rationale.
Besides, CCUs have always varied dramatically in power depending on the user. When Namor had one, he couldn't do more than make a big fish monster. When Doom had one, he created his own universe. When one was broken and going crazy, it was going to destroy the multiverse.
I'm really unclear why this is even a debate. The IG manipulated the nullification energies of the UN on panel and with a mere gesture. You can talk about marble sized sphere of nullification all you want, the fact remains, nullification is nullification and the IG manipulated said energies. I've been waiting for a year for you to prove that nullification potency is increased with scale. There isn't ONE shred of evidence saying those or even alluding to this. More energy is needed for a larger scale nullification, however, it doesn't mean things are nullified more potently in the least. That just defies on panel evidence and logic.
The reason why 5 CCU could compete with the UN is the same reason why the IG pwns the UN. A very powerful artifact with good versatility will always stand a good chance against the UN. This is why Magus felt he could still beat the UN with the 5 CCU's.
What I want you to proved is ANY evidence that suggest nullification potency is increased with the scale increasing. We have the IG pwning and redirecting the UN nullification sphere with ease. So please prove or provide any evidence that if said sphere was a universal sized sphere Magus would've been pwned. Lets also remember this was an incomplete IG that pwnd the UN with a mere gesture.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiBy this rationale, if in the future, the UN nullifies a marble-sized fireball produced by the IG, then the UN > IG. IG's power doesn't change at all, it's "always" omnipotent power. That doesn't sound shallow and dubious at all like your rationale.
I'm really unclear why this is even a debate. The IG manipulated the nullification energies of the UN on panel and with a mere gesture. You can talk about marble sized sphere of nullification all you want, the fact remains, nullification is nullification and the IG manipulated said energies. I've been waiting for a year for you to prove that nullification potency is increased with scale. There isn't ONE shred of evidence saying those or even alluding to this. More energy is needed for a larger scale nullification, however, it doesn't mean things are nullified more potently in the least. That just defies on panel evidence and logic.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiAnd 5 CCUs haven't demonstrated any power approaching instanetly destroying and restoring the Marvel Multiverse. So obviously UN's power > 5 CCUs' power. No matter what else you want to rationalize. Thus, same holds for UN's power > IG's power.
The reason why 5 CCU could compete with the UN is the same reason why the IG pwns the UN. A very powerful artifact with good versatility will always stand a good chance against the UN. This is why Magus felt he could still beat the UN with the 5 CCU's.What I want you to proved is ANY evidence that suggest nullification potency is increased with the scale increasing. We have the IG pwning and redirecting the UN nullification sphere with ease. So please prove or provide any evidence that if said sphere was a universal sized sphere Magus would've been pwned. Lets also remember this was an incomplete IG that pwnd the UN with a mere gesture.
So what you're saying here is that a slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere = instantaneous Multiverse-wide destroying/recreating blast. Fine deduction here.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiEven if we were to assume the nullification energies had the same potency regardless of size, one obviously has more energy, thus would take a larger amount of power to overtake it.
I'm really unclear why this is even a debate. The IG manipulated the nullification energies of the UN on panel and with a mere gesture. You can talk about marble sized sphere of nullification all you want, the fact remains, nullification is nullification and the IG manipulated said energies. I've been waiting for a year for you to prove that nullification potency is increased with scale. There isn't ONE shred of evidence saying those or even alluding to this. More energy is needed for a larger scale nullification, however, it doesn't mean things are nullified more potently in the least. That just defies on panel evidence and logic.The reason why 5 CCU could compete with the UN is the same reason why the IG pwns the UN. A very powerful artifact with good versatility will always stand a good chance against the UN. This is why Magus felt he could still beat the UN with the 5 CCU's.
What I want you to proved is ANY evidence that suggest nullification potency is increased with the scale increasing. We have the IG pwning and redirecting the UN nullification sphere with ease. So please prove or provide any evidence that if said sphere was a universal sized sphere Magus would've been pwned. Lets also remember this was an incomplete IG that pwnd the UN with a mere gesture.
It would be like comparing a small splash in your bath to a tidal wave, they are made up of the same things, but it would take a much greater amount of force to stop one than the other. The IG never showed power over the entire multiverse, which one would think would be needed to stop something that instantaneously affects the entire multiverse.
At least that's the way I see it.
Originally posted by Mindset
Even if we were to assume the nullification energies had the same potency regardless of size, one obviously has more energy, thus would take a larger amount of power to overtake it.It would be like comparing a small splash in your bath to a tidal wave, they are made up of the same things, but it would take a much greater amount of force to stop one than the other. The IG never showed power over the entire multiverse, which one would think would be needed to stop something that instantaneously affects the entire multiverse.
At least that's the way I see it.
Originally posted by Mindset
Even if we were to assume the nullification energies had the same potency regardless of size, one obviously has more energy, thus would take a larger amount of power to overtake it.It would be like comparing a small splash in your bath to a tidal wave, they are made up of the same things, but it would take a much greater amount of force to stop one than the other. The IG never showed power over the entire multiverse, which one would think would be needed to stop something that instantaneously affects the entire multiverse.
At least that's the way I see it.
We're aren't assuming nullification is nullification mindset, we are going by on panel evidence or lack thereof ever stating it is different. There isn't a shred of evidence stating it increases potency. Next, it wouldn't necessitate needed more energy to combat a larger size sphere…. Reason being.. If Quasar had sent out a universal sized sphere (capable of taking out the universe) all magus still has to do is resist the energy only trying to nullify him. He could let planet after planet get destroyed, and still only need to resist the nullification directly going after him not anything else he doesn't care about.
^ So basically, slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere = instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast.
Because nobody is providing you evidence that "a slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere" is really all that different from "an instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast."
Your inability to accept the plainly obvious =/= lack of evidence. It's simply an inability to accept the plainly obvious. This isn't meant to be a hard concept:
An instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere.
And basically, the entire basis for your rationale depends on ignoring that obvious fact...
biscuits
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiTherefore you are assuming nullification has the same potency regardless of its size.
We're aren't assuming nullification is nullification mindset, we are going by on panel evidence or lack thereof ever stating it is different. There isn't a shred of evidence stating it increases potency. Next, it wouldn't necessitate needed more energy to combat a larger size sphere…. Reason being.. If Quasar had sent out a universal sized sphere (capable of taking out the universe) all magus still has to do is resist the energy only trying to nullify him. He could let planet after planet get destroyed, and still only need to resist the nullification directly going after him not anything else he doesn't care about.
The evidence that it's potency changes with its size is that it nullified a multiverse in one instance and less in another. Bigger size = more affected = more energy = more potency. Or did you mean another word besides potency?
Anyway, there would still be more energy directed at Magus even if he was only protecting himself. So you are assuming that he could affect more energy than he was shown to be able to going by on panel evidence.
Another thing in the Nullifier's defense, doesn't the user of the Nullifier have to have a complete understanding of the object to be Nullified for it to operate correctly (I could have sworn I read this somewhere)?
In What If : Avenger's had lost the Korvac War, Michael Korvac uses his Cosmic Awareness to study the Universe in it's entirety then unleashes the full power of the Nullifier wiping out everyone and everything.
In the Infinity War fiasco (someone correct me if I'm wrong), Quasar was using the Nullifier with the knowledge that Magus only had the 5 CCU. He didn't know the Magus had the incomplete Gauntlet. The object of Quasar's blast (Magus) had it's nature changed considerably (IG vs 5 CCU).
Originally posted by Mindset
Therefore you are assuming nullification has the same potency regardless of its size.The evidence that it's potency changes with its size is that it nullified a multiverse in one instance and less in another. Bigger size = more affected = more energy = more potency. Or did you mean another word besides potency?
Anyway, there would still be more energy directed at Magus even if he was only protecting himself. So you are assuming that he could affect more energy than he was shown to be able to going by on panel evidence.
There isn't a shred of evidence that says when you nullify half the universe or the entire universe, that things in the entire universe are nullified more potently. That is what it comes down to. It seems you're claiming that there are varying levels of nullification potency based on the scale of nullification. I haven't seen one shred of evidence that this is the case. Nullification is nullification. The more energy needed comes from the scale and that said energy is GOING TOWARDS nullifying more things, not increasing the potency of nullification to each and everything. If you have any evidence that says this please post it. Otherwise… either way you're still resisting the same nullification properties.
Furthermore, even if I was to accept your unsubstantiated theory that potency increased and you would have to reset a lot more based on scale… That is fine because the benefit of the doubt is on my side. Why? Simple… with a MERE THOUGHT and a INCOMPLETE IG Magus manipulated the sphere to nullify Quasar. That is how easy it was. Thus there is A LOT of room there for magus to have to work harder IF that is even the case. So really, as we can see, even if I accept such a notion… Magus still has a lot of wiggle room in which to deal with this unsubstantiated theory.
^ Dude, the UN's power varies based on circumstance a lot. In BCA Galactus used it to wipe out his universe. That was not the same as when, during Abraxas' debut, he used it to nullify the Multiverse. And Quasar's wimpy little blast was definitely not the same as a full-powered UN attack.
Originally posted by Mindset
Even if we were to assume the nullification energies had the same potency regardless of size, one obviously has more energy, thus would take a larger amount of power to overtake it.It would be like comparing a small splash in your bath to a tidal wave, they are made up of the same things, but it would take a much greater amount of force to stop one than the other. The IG never showed power over the entire multiverse, which one would think would be needed to stop something that instantaneously affects the entire multiverse.
At least that's the way I see it.
👆
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiThere's evidence that a slowly expanding marble-sized sphere is less potent than an instantaneous Multiverse-wide destroyng/recreating blast.
There isn't a shred of evidence that says when you nullify half the universe or the entire universe, that things in the entire universe are nullified more potently. That is what it comes down to. It seems you're claiming that there are varying levels of nullification potency based on the scale of nullification. I haven't seen one shred of evidence that this is the case. Nullification is nullification. The more energy needed comes from the scale and that said energy is GOING TOWARDS nullifying more things, not increasing the potency of nullification to each and everything. If you have any evidence that says this please post it. Otherwise… either way you're still resisting the same nullification properties.
Look at the statement. How you ended up cornering yourself into denying the obviousness of this statement isn't argumentation. You're just insisting that somehow... someway... they're the same. They're not the same.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiGranting your premise: Incomplete IG effortlessly turned a slowly expanding marble-sized sphere.
Furthermore, even if I was to accept your unsubstantiated theory that potency increased and you would have to reset a lot more based on scale… That is fine because the benefit of the doubt is on my side. Why? Simple… with a MERE THOUGHT and a INCOMPLETE IG Magus manipulated the sphere to nullify Quasar. That is how easy it was. Thus there is A LOT of room there for magus to have to work harder IF that is even the case. So really, as we can see, even if I accept such a notion… Magus still has a lot of wiggle room in which to deal with this unsubstantiated theory.
So granting our premise: How much more exponentially potent would an instantaneous Multiverse-wide destroying/recreating blast be?
How much power does it take to nullify/recreate a single atom? How much power does it take to nullify/recreate a planet's worth of atoms? How much power does it take to nullify/recreate a galaxy's worth of atoms? How much power does it take to nullify/recreate a universe's worth of atoms? How much power does it take to nullify/recreate an infinite Multiverse's worth of atoms? Because at the very least, that is the level of power demonstrated already on-panel.
Somehow IG has the power to deal with that kind of power? And this is based on dealing with a marble-sized sphere? How many different ways can we explain how dumb this is?
^^^^ So you still have zero evidence that the nullification potency changes one bit. You keep on acting like I think the sphere's are the same in all areas, which I have never stated. Nullification is certainly nullification. Planets and people are nullified more just because you're nullifying a wider area. That defies common sense and on panel evidence. PLEASE POST ANY EVIDENCE THAT TALKS ABOUT THE NULLIFICATION PROPERITES CHANGING BASED ON SCALE. Nobody is saying that more energy is probably needed to do so (though this isn't on panel either) Lets say it does take more energy to do so... please show me this means things are nullified more potently. The more energy is needed because you're nullifying A LOT more things. Very simple and easy concept. I'm really not sure why this alludes you and others. If you have ANY evidence to the contrary please post it.
The fatal flaw in your premise and conclusion here is that Magus wouldn't have to stop (lets say a universe or 10 universes) from being nullified. He wouldn't care about those things. Thus he wouldn't have to resist said forces and energy. He ONLY has to resist what is trying to directly nullify him, not stop everything around him from being nullified. I'm surprised you made such a faulty argument in the first place ODG. All he magus or anybody needs to do is resist ONLY the energy directly going towards there nullification.
Lastly, as point out and the evidence is clearly in my corner here. Even if things are nullified more potently and more energy is needed to resist. We have an INCOMPLETE IG pwning a the UN nullification energies with a MERE THOUGHT. So we have a complete and utter stompage with the greatest of ease against nullification properties that don't vary. Scale and energy vary not the nullification potency itself. Thus, the on panel evidence suggest that a complete IG with somebody trying really hard would be able to exponentially rest more if it was that easy already.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So basically, slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere = instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast.Because nobody is providing you evidence that "a slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere" is really all that different from "an instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast."
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How many different ways can we explain how dumb this is?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also fixed: Yes. Magus actually sought out and used the 5 CCUs and limited their uber-Multiversalpwnerz abilities to such a far degree that even 5 full CCUs could not merge a shadowy version onto a single universe without hours' worth of time. Yes. That doesn't sound dumb at all.
Fact: CCUs have feats on the level of the vaunted fully released UN.
Fact: CCUs can also defeat the UN if the two are used against each other.
Fact: IG is EMPIRICALLY STRONGER than a CCU, regardless of who is using it.
Your stupid appeal to ridicule fallacies don't change the fact that a CCU is more than capable of beating the UN in all categories.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Besides, UN has always varied dramatically in power depending on the user. Why, when Quasar used it, he shot a slowly expanding marble-sized nullification sphere. And when Reed used it, he shot an instantaneous all-encompassing blast that destroyed and recreated the Marvel Multiverse. I totally haven't made this point before. And you guys totally haven't ended up makin the same arguments accidentally when I poke at your rationale.
People are so stubborn here. I dont understand why this thread has gone on for so long when the answer is so plain to see.
An IG wielder will just about always win in battle over a UN user.
Without a doubt the UN has more destructive power. However it is a one trick pony, a handheld energy weapon. It doesn't empower the wielders personal abilities at all and thats why the IG wielder would almost always win against a UN wielder in a fair contest.
If u have 2 people with equal physical and mental abilities and equip one with the IG and one with the UN, the UN user would get stomped. The IG would amp the wielders awareness and physical attributes and they'd take out the UN user before they could register what was going on.