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Sure, because you have failed to prove that what has been shown in the EU actually contradicts the movies,
sorry captain planet, Vader did what he did, whats done has been done, if he was shown that he was fast, it damm well means he did it, It has been recorded in galactic history and thus been shown to us,
So your excuse of "higher canon" fails miserably, If you want to use "the true form of canon" Then i guess DE and LOTF directly contradicts ROTJ because we saw boba die in there,
Huh? but the part where it said boba escaped, its in the EU! and it contradicts the movies!!
I've already disproved this. He was stated in the Ultimate Visual Guide to have done his best against Obi-Wan, I already quoted this, and you seemed to tackle it with a strawman IIRC.
And in that same quote you posted said Vader was confident he would win from the start, And in the movie Vader says Obi Wans powers and skill have drastically declined, and in the script it says Obi Wan was being overwhelmed by Vaders presence. Oh yeah he was trying his hardest.
And he basically got bested. But this doesn't matter as he did try his hardest against Ben.
Too bad your wrong on both accounts since Vader won against Maul, wasn't bested the Acolytes commented on how even they were and Maul himself was impressed with Vader, and he wasn't trying against Ben.
1. This isn't KotOR, you know. Force speed isn't a basic power that just anybody can execute once they've learnt it.
Yeah because the NSO are so shitty that can't do it.
2. All jedi are trained to use the force to augment their speed, however to try and downplay a considerable usage of the technique by just saying that it's force speed which anybody can execute is ridiculous. The fact is, while most force users learn how to slightly enhance their speed with the force, not many have shown the ability to move that fast. It's extremely impressive, it's beyond Vader, Vader wouldn't be able to cope with it.
Admittedly after re-reading the exert, it says Bane unleashed all the force energy he had been building up when he was toying with Sirak, so yes it is different from Force Speed, but for him to do this it would require that his opponent be a joke, which Vader isn't, that his opponent give him the time to build up that energy, that his opponent doesn't have lightning quick reflex's which Vader has proved he does when he with his battle with Maul, keeping up with him blow for blow, even when Maul busted out his Jar Kari. And that Maul was just as good if not better then TMP version, with this he knew all Mauls fighting styles even the TK moves, and its implied Sidious was behind his creation with this
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045
That was after 1 hour of originally learning the technique, failed to mention that, didn't you?
Regardless see below.
The students that couldn't quite keep up with Bane's actions had been trained to use the force for years, calling them weak without proving it doesn't quite lessen the feat.
Uh I've already proved them to be losers, one of the lesser students who Bane thought so insignificant he didn't even learn his name was made a Dark Lord, he being one of the lesser students wasn't even invited to learn from the masters like Quordis who only brought their attention to the strongest. That said it means the the MAJORITY of the Sith Students on Korriban were self taught jokes who couldn't even perform Force Lightning since they were too weak to be included in the lessons.
"Those who showed promise--the individuals who elevated themselves above the others--were rewarded. They received one on one instruction with the Masters to reach their full potential. Those who could not keep up were left behind. That was the way of the dark side." pg 105
Again weak SELF TAUGHT Dark Force users are made Lords...no wonder the Brotherhood lost almost EVERY battle on Ruusan.
Sirak, a weakling student? Are you having a laugh? he was so powerful that most of the sith thought he might actually be the sith'ari instead of Bane.
Oh yeah being the strongest in a group of jokes...big whoop, at least Bane had competition in Kas'im. Other then Kas'im, Bane, Kaan and maybe Kopezc the Brotherhood blew donkey balls.
Quit lying, he shows quite clearly in his final battle with Bane how to summon force lightning. Did you even read PoD? It was after having just learnt force lightning that he could barely summon it
"Staggering back, Bane was almost too distracted to see Sirak unleashing a BOLT of crackling blue lightning at him" pg 206
Owned.
Right, because I never replied, that means you owned me. 🙄
Please, I provided plenty of proof, all you did was either ignore it or attempt to, but fail to work around it. It's been proven that Vader's slow.
No, but when I owned your argument in every way and you stop responding with the excuse "I can't be bothered" even though your debating the EXACT same thing with me now, it means you got owned. You provided half assed assumptions, misinterpretations and lies. Vader moves faster in his duel with Luke in ROTJ then Sidious does against Mace in ROTS, AND Sidious was using his godly force speed
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YGVBGFbB6eI - Mace V Palpy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqS5x-PiHpw&NR - Vader v Luke ROTJ
Almost every single EU source describes Vader as LIGHTNING fast, and the fact that Vader doesn't even see his suit as a limitation but more of a costume, it has NO hindrance on his speed.
But really what can Bane do to Vader? Speed is irrelevant since Vader wont let him gather huge bursts of force energy, his force attacks wont harm Vader (or even if they did Vader would eat them and keep coming) since Vader was able to take Sidious's lightning which knocked down Yoda, Mace and Luke and has killed a battalion of storm troopers AND has insta killed Acolytes
( http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043 )
Vader was able to take that, walk and chuck Sidious. Vader can take lightsabers in to damn chests, Vader has 20 years of experience in the Dark Side over Bane, so powerful that even the Ancients respected him.
Then we have the fact that the great dark power that Luke is so worried about in LOTF, he alikeness the power he felt from that too Vader.
Originally posted by AC
One thing before I go, where is it exactly stated that it was "years" between Bane's initial start as a Sith and his taking the title Darth, I always thought it was months.
I really have no idea how long he spent in the academy. It would assume he spent a year, since in “round one” he was able to defeat Kas’im in saber dueling. The other case would be pretty messed up. We would have a rather new Sith being able to trump a blademaster who “perfected” his skills in every form of lightsaber combat. Whatmore, Bane would have done that with only 4 months of study. That would be ridiculous. That would take the word “prodigy,” and raise it to the 24th power.
No, he won because as DK put it he was just "too strong in the force" for Kas'im too compete.
What I am trying to get at is that it equates to the same thing. If you are “strong in the force,” that means a positive impact on saber skills. Remember Kas’im’s quote? The stronger you are in the force, the better you are in lightsaber dueling. The sequences are only a means to which you can attain this state of force power-saber dueling connection. That when Bane achieved this state was stronger than Kas’im, proves that he is all around a better duelist than Kas.
Whoa, he does not have the experience of Vader, he has only been in ONE actual "Lightsaber" duel I fail too see how that gives him the experience edge over Vader
I never said that Bane has the “experience” edge over Vader. However, we have seen how he fares against experienced duelists. Kas’im has, perhaps, even more experience than Vader. He mastered every form of dueling, and spent decades perfecting each of these forms of dueling. It is supported that he may be among the few topnotch duelists in all of Star Wars history. Bane was yet able to overwhelm him via saber in round one. Whatmore, by the end of PoD he has seen every single style of lightsaber dueling.
Now with regards to Vader. I have two questions. Which styles does Vader know that can surprise Bane?
If you have an answer to that AC, I ask again, can he actually use those styles to the level of proficiency so as to surprise Bane? Kas’im is a whole different matter, he is comparable to Yoda in sheer dueling skill. It is only by two reasons that he pushed Bane back using an unpredictable style.
1) He is a damn incredible duelist, comparable to PT tops like Windu and Yoda.
2) He taught Bane, and knows Bane’s style better than anyone else.
If a padawan were trying to surprise Bane using a style that Bane has no clue about, Bane would probably wtfpwn him. Get my point? It is because of the benefits that Kas’im had, topped with Kas’s talents and hard work, that made being unpredictable against Bane an actual benefit.
and he has seen Kas'im who blends the styles into a custom, he hasn't seen a complete Master of one form like Yoda with Ataru or Dooku with Makashi.
What I got from the quote is that by Kas’im’s talents and hardwork, he attained a level of perfection for each form of lightsabe, pretty damn close to the degree that Yoda or Dooku had with their respective forms. The book seems to highlight that Kas’s singular purpose in life was to master the blade, whereas Yoda and Dooku were involved in politics, concerns of the Jedi order as a whole and whatnot.
No, he lost because he panicked. Had he done as before and simply let the force guide him he would have won. My point was when he see's something he's not totally familiar with he loses focus, starts to think about what he's gonna do next, starts think about possible combinations and panics.
A few things I want to analyze before moving on.
Do you agree that Bane had a disadvantage there? Kasim knew Bane’s handiwork perfectly after teaching him, yet Bane did not know this alien form that Bane was employing. If that is the case, then the fight is onesided. Bane had unpredictability working against him, Kas’im knew everything Bane was using.
And also, I feel you are generalizing without enough facts to make such a generalization. We have one instance where Bane panicked due to the unpredictability of a style that he has never fought against, and used against him by a duelist of Kas’s caliber. Just because it happens once, when Bane is still, in fact, a noob, it does not mean it will happen again. By the end of PoD, Bane’s skill has substantially increased, enough so that he can effortlessly grip force users with perhaps the level of defense that Kenobi possesses (Qordis.) What more, his confidence in his saber abilities are no doubt substantially increased after succeeding in perhaps the most furious battle of his life. He has seen every style, first hand, from a Twi’lek that dedicated every passing moment of his life to the saber. Things are not going to surprise him as much anymore.
Had it been anyone else and had Padme not been there mostly anybody would have been pwned.
Well Obi Wan was also facing a tremendous loss. Anakin betrayed him, and what a betrayal it must have been…
Think about it for a second. The feeling of sorrow that Kenobi felt was probably ten folds greater than Anakin. Anakin thought his wife betrayed him for Obi Wan. This gave him a new source of fury. By this fury, he should, logically become even stronger in the darkside and saber combat.
Kenobi on the otherhand, was a Jedi. He was not feeling anger, he was feeling sorrow and regret. He knew that Anakin pretty much pissed on all the love, devotion, caring and compassion that Kenobi gave him. He was seeing perhaps the one person in the world he cared about most; want nothing more than to kill him. What more, he was given an ultimatum…kill the boy he loved more than anything or anyone, otherwise the galaxy would go to hell. He was probably fighting at of an alltime low whereas Anakin should theoretically have been fighting at high. Yet he was able to beat Anakin.
Again, I digress. My point is that Kenobi was fighting at a low, whereas Anakin would theoretically be fighting better due to his fury.
Bane on the otherhand was fighting a tutor that spent his life mastering every facet of saber combat. Whatmore; Kas’im had no emotional grievances; he was hell-bent on making Bane scream like a *****. That did not happen; Bane overwhelmed Kas’im in “round one” by sheer saber prowess.
In round two, Kas’im was winning because he knew things about Bane’s technique whereas Bane knew nothing about Kas’im’s techniques. In order to make this clearer, because Kas’im taught Bane, he would logically know almost everything there is to Bane’s dueling style and tactics. On the otherhand, we have Bane who knows nothing about this novel form that Kas’im was using. I think you can see the advantage that led Kas’im to gaining the upperhand in round two. Otherwise, Bane is a superior, in dueling, to a warrior that mastered all seven forms of dueling, and who spent decades perfecting the nuances of each technique.
Except Vader does. He uses Djem So, and sets of Djem So that he learned from Kas'im,
Your trying to base Bane’s “predictability” on the fact that he practices Djem So, but that doesn’t work. The sequences themselves aren’t what Kas was seeing when he was dueling Bane.
What Bane and Kas seems to believe, is that the sequences themselves are not what you see when you face a masterful duelist. The sequences are a means to establish a state where the force is what is guiding your dueling.
What I am trying to get at, is when Vader fights Bane, he is not encountering a predictable set of sequences; he is locking blades against an incredibly fast, physically strong, and immensely powerful Sith Lord who uses the force to guide is actions and dueling technique, not a predictable set of sequences. By these facts, predictability cannot be something to downplay Bane for the purposes of this match.
Another thing I would like to add. Bane faced off against Kas’im that knew every style to perhaps the fullest extent. By the end of PoD, I doubt that Vader would be able to pull much to surprise him to such a degree so as to devastate Bane.
continued...
...continued.
Don't bring this up, its already been proved Dooku stopped caring about the "plan" when Obi and Anakin started to get serious.
As per the novelization true. But the novelization also stated that Anakin was losing at one point via Dooku’s taunts. But I was referring more to the fact, that in an arena situation where Dooku can use the force to the fullest extent, and is not beholden to the directors wish to engage two opponents in a typical lightsaber duel, then Dooku would win.
Meh, force speed.
True, but scale is what I would put as the distinguishing feature. That he was able to move faster than the eye could see, whether it be students or not, is enough to prove his speed advantage over Vader. According to Leia, who received probably equally as much, perhaps less, training than the padawans at Korriban, Luke and the Emperor were moving at speeds faster than the eye could see. So Bane’s speed was on a level to match. If this OT Vader, then he is not moving at speeds faster than the eye could see; the eye can trace them rather comfortably. He is moving at speeds slower than what he was reaching as a younger man.
We have to take into account that Vader wasn't trying to kill his son or fight back really, and Luke was going off on a Dark Side burst.
Here is some pretty good footage of the duel in ESB and ROTJ (have fun watching, ignore the MK music).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23A3NfBskUw
Before the part where Luke goes psycho in the ROTJ footage, he was able to best Vader by his dexterity, speed, and impressive physical strength. To say the Vader was going all out would be lie, but to say he wasn’t trying helluva a lot would also be a lie.
Another thing: in the ESB footage, we have footage of Luke getting two legitimate shots at Vader. Vader was out to test Luke’s potential. If he was not putting effort into it, it would be idiocy as it would be counter productive to the entire reason of initiating that duel.
To elaborate, the first instance was when he kicked Vader into the depression. The second instance was actually when Vader was going all out. Vader was certainly defeating Luke, but Luke still managed to get a clean shot at Vader’s shoulder.
I don’t care whether Vader was still not going completely crazy; just that a neophyte padawan was able to get two clean shots does not look well for Vader. Hell Vader even mentions “you are not a Jedi yet.”
We have Bane on the otherhand, whom for all intents and purposes, by the end of PoD is superior to perhaps the greatest duelist of all time. This speaks plainly for his victory.
Kas'im was still the better duelist. Analogy time! If a averaged sized sword fighter who has matered whatever his blade style is fights a guy who is physically stronger, twice his size and simply swings and the weaker master his overwhelmed by his power does that make the bigger guy necessarily better?[quote]Yes it would dude. If a younger martial artist who has studied less fighting , succeeds against an older duelist (who is more educated in different martial arts forms), then we would conclude that due to the younger man’s physical strength, stamina, dexterity, and speed, he was the superiour fighter. The better duelist takes into account multiple factors, however, the one who wins is the one we can safely say is the better duelist in the combat sense (unless there is some external circumstance that affects this judgement.)
Bane is stronger than Kas’im. He is faster, physically stronger, more powerful in the force; hell he’s just plain more talented. That is why he is the better duelist. He would have won, if Kas’im did not possess the advantage in round two.
[quote]Now we look at Vader who is his physical superior
Physically superior, as in the “I can bench press more”? Perhaps, and I say perhaps because we haven’t seen the boundaries of Bane’s physical strength. He might be able to bench press 3 tons, or he might only be able to bench press a respectable 1 ton. Whatever you mean, Bane possesses the speed advantage over Vader (in that he can move incredibly fast) and it also seems by the end of PoD, his connection to the force is stronger than Vader’s.
and still his superior skill in the force
Superiour skill in the force? Bane was able to topple buildings, at the height of his confidence force grip a sith lord with comparable amounts of training as Obi Wan effortlessly.. Hell, by KJA’s own admission, Bane most likely pulled a moon out of orbit in order to travel between two bodies in space. With this much force power focused into his saber skills, it is quite possible he would devastate Vader.
Vader taking it by having 20 years of experience on him.
We had Kas’im, with decades of experience, mastering every form of dueling. Yet we had Bane who was the superior of this formidable duelist who could be ranked 2nd-5th in sheer dueling skill.
Im talking about OT Vader, ROTS Anakin would RAPE Bane
Disagreed for reasons presented above. If we are talking about PoD Bane, Bane would comfortably win. If we are talking “Bane of the Sith” Bane, with the Orbalisks, then he would terrorize Anakin.
We've seen Vader shove a lightsaber through his own chest to kill anther,
This was against Maul, and Maul himself was winning that battle when you look at the total picture before that. Am I right? This may be ignorance on my part as to that comic. Yet, Maul is no Bane. I doubt whether Vader would have the chance of doing that, and if he did, whether Bane would sense it and avoid the attack.
AC brings up a point. I'd like to note how powerful Sidious's lightning can be (and this is pre-RotJ). With a single hand, he obliterated those Sith alcolytes to the point that all that remained was their skeletons
Well Gids, I’m pretty sure you know this is a pure saber match, but Bane has demonstrated equally such potent techniques (if not more so.) His wave of force energy was said to be able to turn the entire body+bones of his opponent into a “mass of pulpy liquid.”
Aghhh soo much text...Im deleting most of it sice most of it is just saying the same thing.
What I am trying to get at is that it equates to the same thing. If you are “strong in the force,” that means a positive impact on saber skills. Remember Kas’im’s quote? The stronger you are in the force, the better you are in lightsaber dueling. The sequences are only a means to which you can attain this state of force power-saber dueling connection. That when Bane achieved this state was stronger than Kas’im, proves that he is all around a better duelist than Kas.
Not totally, sure it helps to be a juggernaut in the force to aid and supplement your dueling skills but still those who are not can attain the same level of mastery, Obi Wan Kenobi has what an above average connection, can be easily overwhelmed in the force by very strong users like Dooku and yet he is quite possibly the greatest Soresu master the order has ever seen. So your inference on TEH LEET force power = Automatic uber saber skillz is wrong. It helps but its not the be all end all.
I never said that Bane has the “experience” edge over Vader. However, we have seen how he fares against experienced duelists. Kas’im has, perhaps, even more experience than Vader. He mastered every form of dueling, and spent decades perfecting each of these forms of dueling. It is supported that he may be among the few topnotch duelists in all of Star Wars history. Bane was yet able to overwhelm him via saber in round one. Whatmore, by the end of PoD he has seen every single style of lightsaber dueling.
What your implying in your statements is that Kas'im use one style that he has completely mastered then switch to the next and so on and so forth in his duel against Bane just to showcase his skills, he didn't. The book makes NO mention what so ever of Kas'im switching or using anyone particular style in "Round One" he is on the defensive running for his life the entire time. Now in "Round 2" He uses Jar Kari to its full effect that is quite possibly the only style that Bane has seen such mastery in.
Now with regards to Vader. I have two questions. Which styles does Vader know that can surprise Bane?
Um ROVD says he takes aspects from every style event he most dangerous levels to blend it into one style. And considering Bane has only seen complete leetness in ONE style (Jar Kari) Im sure he'd be surprised.
If you have an answer to that AC, I ask again, can he actually use those styles to the level of proficiency so as to surprise Bane? Kas’im is a whole different matter, he is comparable to Yoda in sheer dueling skill. It is only by two reasons that he pushed Bane back using an unpredictable style.
Yes, because as I've been saying Bane has only seen leetness in one style. Bane even says Kas'im always held back in the practice duels (so that means he didn't show him his real skills) and Kas'im doesn't display anyone particular style in "round one" other then form "I have to get the f*ck out of here."
1) He is a damn incredible duelist, comparable to PT tops like Windu and Yoda.
So is Vader.
What I got from the quote is that by Kas’im’s talents and hardwork, he attained a level of perfection for each form of lightsabe, pretty damn close to the degree that Yoda or Dooku had with their respective forms. The book seems to highlight that Kas’s singular purpose in life was to master the blade, whereas Yoda and Dooku were involved in politics, concerns of the Jedi order as a whole and whatnot.
SO WAS vader, his only purpose at that point in his life was gaining enough power to kill Sidious.
Do you agree that Bane had a disadvantage there? Kasim knew Bane’s handiwork perfectly after teaching him, yet Bane did not know this alien form that Bane was employing. If that is the case, then the fight is onesided. Bane had unpredictability working against him, Kas’im knew everything Bane was using.
No, because if Bane had truly focused and gave himself over to the Dark Side the styles would have been regardless, again Bane panicked, lost his focus and ended up getting owned.
Bane’s skill has substantially increased, enough so that he can effortlessly grip force users with perhaps the level of defense that Kenobi possesses (Qordis.) What more, his confidence in his saber abilities are no doubt substantially increased after succeeding in perhaps the most furious battle of his life. He has seen every style, first hand, from a Twi’lek that dedicated every passing moment of his life to the saber. Things are not going to surprise him as much anymore.
No. Prove that Qordis is on the level of Obi Wan. Before you make assumptions like that. Again he hasn't seen every style to its full effect.
Well Obi Wan was also facing a tremendous loss. Anakin betrayed him, and what a betrayal it must have been…
Think about it for a second. The feeling of sorrow that Kenobi felt was probably ten folds greater than Anakin. Anakin thought his wife betrayed him for Obi Wan. This gave him a new source of fury. By this fury, he should, logically become even stronger in the darkside and saber combat.Kenobi on the otherhand, was a Jedi. He was not feeling anger, he was feeling sorrow and regret. He knew that Anakin pretty much pissed on all the love, devotion, caring and compassion that Kenobi gave him. He was seeing perhaps the one person in the world he cared about most; want nothing more than to kill him. What more, he was given an ultimatum…kill the boy he loved more than anything or anyone, otherwise the galaxy would go to hell. He was probably fighting at of an alltime low whereas Anakin should theoretically have been fighting at high. Yet he was able to beat Anakin.
Again, I digress. My point is that Kenobi was fighting at a low, whereas Anakin would theoretically be fighting better due to his fury.
Bane on the otherhand was fighting a tutor that spent his life mastering every facet of saber combat. Whatmore; Kas’im had no emotional grievances; he was hell-bent on making Bane scream like a *****. That did not happen; Bane overwhelmed Kas’im in “round one” by sheer saber prowess.
No there is no pwnage Planet.
As
per the novelization true. But the novelization also stated that Anakin was losing at one point via Dooku’s taunts. But I was referring more to the fact, that in an arena situation where Dooku can use the force to the fullest extent, and is not beholden to the directors wish to engage two opponents in a typical lightsaber duel, then Dooku would win.
No, if Dooku could have used his force powers then he would have, Anakin was all over him, Anakin was too fast for him, Anakin was too damn strong. Dooku couldn't keep up, and he couldn't use his force powers because Anakin was on him in seconds. Are you expecting Anakin too sit there and let Dooku Zap him?
According to Leia, who received probably equally as much, perhaps less, training than the padawans at Korriban, Luke and the Emperor were moving at speeds faster than the eye could see. So Bane’s speed was on a level to match. If this OT Vader, then he is not moving at speeds faster than the eye could see; the eye can trace them rather comfortably. He is moving at speeds slower than what he was reaching as a younger man.
Bad Analogy. Since Liea is nowhere near Luke or Sidious and couldn't match there movements we don't know how fast they were going, since Liea is our only witness. Sidious used the same speed in ROTS in the novel and Anakin could follow his movements, watching him fight Mace Windu. So your point is irrelevant, since Anakin can follow and has been shown to react fast enough.
Then we have the fact that you omitted that Bane had GATHERED that force energy up just to unleash it in that single burst, he didn't sustain that speed. So again irrelevant, and I doubt highly Vader would LET him gather energy.
Before the part where Luke goes psycho in the ROTJ footage, he was able to best Vader by his dexterity, speed, and impressive physical strength. To say the Vader was going all out would be lie, but to say he wasn’t trying helluva a lot would also be a lie.
Another thing: in the ESB footage, we have footage of Luke getting two legitimate shots at Vader. Vader was out to test Luke’s potential. If he was not putting effort into it, it would be idiocy as it would be counter productive to the entire reason of initiating that duel.
To elaborate, the first instance was when he kicked Vader into the depression. The second instance was actually when Vader was going all out. Vader was certainly defeating Luke, but Luke still managed to get a clean shot at Vader’s shoulder.
And? Still this wasn't Vader at his best, and at that point in the duel. Vader was toying with Luke, and Luke caught him by surprise by using the Dark Side and once Vader stooped playing he hacked Lukes hand off, something he could have doen the entire time.
Physically superior, as in the “I can bench press more”? Perhaps, and I say perhaps because we haven’t seen the boundaries of Bane’s physical strength. He might be able to bench press 3 tons, or he might only be able to bench press a respectable 1 ton. Whatever you mean, Bane possesses the speed advantage over Vader (in that he can move incredibly fast) and it also seems by the end of PoD, his connection to the force is stronger than Vader’s.
His connection is stronger? Since he's clearly not stronger then Sidious, he is according to you what 10 - 15% stronger then Vader?
Superiour skill in the force? Bane was able to topple buildings, at the height of his confidence force grip a sith lord with comparable amounts of training as Obi Wan effortlessly.. Hell, by KJA’s own admission, Bane most likely pulled a moon out of orbit in order to travel between two bodies in space. With this much force power focused into his saber skills, it is quite possible he would devastate Vader.
So wrong, he was able to knock down a 20,000 year old temple, with a ridicules force wave...Big whoop. Stop with the Qordris = Obi Wan bullshit unless you can prove it. No, KJA implied that he may have but you can't prove it so its irrelevant speculation. Vader was able to chock his Inquisitor Melroma(sp) while simultaneously collapsing the room with his anger. Your overrating Bane SEVER LY.
Disagreed for reasons presented above. If we are talking about PoD Bane, Bane would comfortably win. If we are talking “Bane of the Sith” Bane, with the Orbalisks, then he would terrorize Anakin.
Proof? Anakin has a stronger connection, more training, while using the dark side more focus that he is able to make lightsaber masters who by your own admission may be better then Kas'im look like utter jokes, and tool them in 8 seconds. He is faster and one of the greatest masters of Djem So ever. Also one of the most powerful Jedi ever, BOTH Bane's get butt raped, again your SEVER LY overrating Bane.
This was against Maul, and Maul himself was winning that battle when you look at the total picture before that. Am I right? This may be ignorance on my part as to that comic. Yet, Maul is no Bane. I doubt whether Vader would have the chance of doing that, and if he did, whether Bane would sense it and avoid the attack.
No, they were even, the Acolytes and Maul are both surprised by his skill. Your right Maul is no Bane, he has only mastered more, and dedicated his life to his martial prowess, and this Maul was concocted by pure Dark Side energy, he was hate. The ONLY thing Bane has over him is his force connection.
Well Gids, I’m pretty sure you know this is a pure saber match, but Bane has demonstrated equally such potent techniques (if not more so.) His wave of force energy was said to be able to turn the entire body+bones of his opponent into a “mass of pulpy liquid.”
Yeah after he gathered and unleashed all his reservoirs of force energy which with anybody with a brain WOULDN'T do, he was left completely drained. Sidious however does his in an instant and he's still not drained.
Obi Wan Kenobi has what an above average connection, can be easily overwhelmed in the force by very strong users like Dooku and yet he is quite possibly the greatest Soresu master the order has ever seen.
I don’t see whether I get your point. Obi Wan’s connection to the force is quite substantial. Afterall, he was able to defeat figures like Grievous who are well above the average Jedi. He studies Soresu, but it’s his connection to the force that truly allows him to reach such a formidable level with Soresu. Could you maybe clarify?
So your inference on TEH LEET force power = Automatic uber saber skillz is wrong.
My inference is that “leet force power/potential” accounts for perhaps 90% of an opponents force strength. Kas’im quickly dismissed sequences as playing an inferior role to a person’s ability to channel the darkside.
What your implying in your statements is that Kas'im use one style that he has completely mastered then switch to the next and so on and so forth in his duel against Bane
Yes I am.
The book makes NO mention what so ever of Kas'im switching or using anyone particular style in "Round One"
I do not understand why he would not alternate between styles. He was with the intent to kill Bane; he would undoubtedly be using each style in order to try and subdue Bane. He was the master of every style, yet in the most furious fight of his life he would not be using them in order to try and subdue his most powerful opponent? Illogical.
Bane trained with Kas’im, and saw all of Kas’im’s skills as well, how he channels the force via all the styles, with the exception of one, Jar’Kai. By the end however, he even sees one of the strongest duelists in the galaxy using said style. He knows all the styles thoroughly.
Now in "Round 2" He uses Jar Kari to its full effect that is quite possibly the only style that Bane has seen such mastery in.
That’s irrational man. You’re saying that Kas was not using his skills the fullest extent against his most furious opponent? Essentially, that he was not trying his hardest? Makes no sense. If he is fighting in the most challenging duel of his life, he is going to make use of every damn style in order to catch Bane off guard and ultimately destroy him.
We have to face the facts. He was unable to defeat Bane even with his “mastery” in all the forms of saber combat. He was only able to push back Bane in “round two” because he possessed one advantage: he knew Bane’s style (after spending nights teaching him) yet Bane did not know Kas’s style, Jar’Kai.
Um ROVD says he takes aspects from every style event he most dangerous levels to blend it into one style. And considering Bane has only seen complete leetness in ONE style (Jar Kari) Im sure he'd be surprised.
I can’t help but say you are going with the hypothesis that requires more assumptions. Principle of parsimony dude: you are effectively saying that in “round one” Kas’im was not trying his hardest. He was. He was fighting again in the most furious battle of his life man; why the hell would he not be using his mastery in all seven forms? That would be like asking for a deathwish if he were fighting Bane.
Dude, what is there that is so complicated about this point?
In round one:
Kas’im taught Bane, he knew everything there was to Bane
Bane learned from Kas’im, he knew nearly everything there was to Kas’im
Important conclusion? This part of the fight was even. They both knew everything about each other.
Result: Bane won
In round two:
Kas’im taught Bane, he knew everything there was to Bane
Bane learned from Kas’im, he did not know Jar’kai
Important conclusion? Kas’im knew everything there was to Bane by an unfair advantage, Bane knew nothing about Kas’im’s form. He lost due to his disadvantage.
Bane is the superiour duelist.
SO WAS vader, his only purpose at that point in his life was gaining enough power to kill Sidious
Vader had a lot of political duties, being Sidious’ “lieutenant” of sorts and as such was very preoccupied. Kas’im on the otherhand had one singular purpose, hone his skills with the saber, perfect them, become the best duelist ever. It was his life.
No, because if Bane had truly focused and gave himself over to the Dark Side the styles would have been regardless, again Bane panicked, lost his focus and ended up getting owned.
Dude, Kas’im was also giving himself over to the Dark Side during the duel.
The clincher is, in round two, Kas’im was giving himself over to the darkside, he knew how Bane fought, and was using a style that Bane was unfamiliar with. That is one-sided if anything.
If you were fighting an opponent of whom you would normally kick the shit out of, it would make sense to consider yourself the better opponent right? What if this guy had someone spy on you and tell you everything there was about how you fought, what type of taunts make you tick, and what things you are weak against? Then you would obviously be weakened because he knows things about you and you know nothing about him.
The same thing happened to Bane. Kas’im knew what was there to Bane, yet Bane knew nothing about Kas’im’s strange new style.
No. Prove that Qordis is on the level of Obi Wan. Before you make assumptions like that.
Hmm, my words were not right. Perhaps what I meant to say was “comparable amounts of training to Obi Wan.” He was the head of the greatest academy known to the brotherhood of darkness. I doubt Kaan would want his top students to be trained by a weakling. Such a foolish decision would completely jeopardize the very war they were trying to win.
Sure he was hurt, but he came to Mustafar with one purpose in mind and that was: kill Anakin Skywalker, by any means necessary. Obi Wan showed NO compassion for Anakin in the duel, he was content to cut him in half while he lied defenseless on a table, he was content to allow Anakin to plummet to his death in a lake of lava, and he was content enough to WATCH Anakin get lit on fire and nearly burn to death with hacked off limbs. So yeah Obi Wan was FAR from conflicted.
Man, Obi-Wan was doing what he had to. He was given an ultimatum, let the galaxy suffer, or kill, essentially, his very own brother. During the entire battle, we can hear the conflict inside of him. He finds it incredibly difficult to bring himself to kill Anakin. The following quotes, from the ROTS novelization, even supports this point.
Before the battle Kenobi shows reluctance, “He would see his friend, his student, his brother, turn and kneel in front of a black-cloaked Lord of the Sith….«Don't make me kill Anakin,» he said. «He's like my brother, Master.»”
During his duel against Anakin, Kenobi mentions that each strike was unbearable, “ And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.”
Anakin even mentions that Obi Wan was hesitating, “ «You hesitate,» Anakin said. «The flaw of compassion," To which Kenobi replies “«It's not compassion,» Obi-Wan said sadly. «It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were.»
Obi Wan mentions that he still loved Anakin, hence the battle would have been torture. Indeed, he states, “The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him.”
Clearly the fight was torturing Obi Wan. He was fighting at a minimum, whereas Anakin should theoretically be fighting at a maximum due to his fury.
The point to this is that even at the height of his fury, Anakin could not bring down Obi Wan.
On the otherhand we have Bane, who fought against one of the greatest lightsaber duelist of all seven forms plus Jar’Kai, and was winning in “round one,” where Kas’im should logically be trying to use everything he can to win. Hell, Kas’im even mentions that Bane could have finished him off. He doesn’t say, “haha! I wasn’t trying, you idiot, I wasn’t even using a set form!”
continued...
...continued
Bad Analogy. Since Liea is nowhere near Luke or Sidious and couldn't match there movements we don't know how fast they were going, since Liea is our only witness.
Besides the point AC. I was saying that they were both moving at speeds faster than the eye could see. We have come to a conclusion that Leia was around the same level as the students in the academy on Korriban. Bane was moving faster than the eye could see in that instance. Was he moving faster than DE Luke and Sidious? We don’t know. Was he slower? We don’t know.
What we do know is that both parties were moving damn fast.
Sidious used the same speed in ROTS in the novel and Anakin could follow his movements, watching him fight Mace Windu.
He could follow his movements? Dude, Anakin could barely make out Palpatine. In the ROTS, novelization, Anakin even wonders, “The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?
Palpatine was even faster in DE, and Bane moved at speeds that were comparable to what Palpatine was reaching by DE. I don’t see how Anakin wins this.
Then we have the fact that you omitted that Bane had GATHERED that force energy up just to unleash it in that single burst,
He “gathered” it because previously he was toying with Sirak. If Bane was going all out, the academy students would not have seen anything. Bane would have moved faster than the eye could see and utterly tooled Sirak dead.
he didn't sustain that speed
He didn’t need to do any sustaining whatsoever. Sirak was no match for him. He toyed with him, and then decided, “Okay, I am cutting the shit.” Then bam, he pulls a Rocky Balboa and takes down Sidious in a seconds notice.
So again irrelevant, and I doubt highly Vader would LET him gather energy
I don’t see how deciding to move really, really fast takes any time…
You are assuming that Bane will be like, “wait a second Vader, I am going to charge up aka DBZ style and start moving fast.” He decides to move fast, Bane moves fast. That is all there is to it.
His connection is stronger? Since he's clearly not stronger then Sidious, he is according to you what 10 - 15% stronger then Vader?
Clearly not stronger than Sidious? You are being a little ambiguous here. ROTS Sidious? Clearly stronger. DE Sidious, I could not tell you.
Either case, his strength in the force is substantially greater than Vader’s by virtue of his feats. Toppling buildings, nudging a freaking moon out of orbit. His powers were incredible in comparison.
So wrong, he was able to knock down a 20,000 year old temple, with a ridicules force wave...Big whoop.
Insomuch as there was never a question on the structural integrity of the structure, I believe that age was not something to diminish Bane’s feat. Add in that it was around 3-4 stories high and several, several dimensions wide, simply that Bane could punch through the entire thing and “explode the walls” with one blast of energy speaks clearly of his devastating strength in the force.
He was able to wipe out trained Sith Lords as an afterthought, as in no effort expended whatsoever. Vader on the otherhand had his hands chopped of by a bunch of Jedi when he was yet familiar with his suit.
No, KJA implied that he may have
What else have we to go by? Simply that KJA implied it puts it as the most viable option. I am picking the most logical option when no hard proof is being supplied. It is acceptable for the purposes of this debate, since KJA implied it. By the fact that it was KJA, it puts it above whatever speculation we might induce.
Vader was able to chock his Inquisitor Melroma(sp)
Force user?
while simultaneously collapsing the room with his anger.
Dude, dino-king Desaan could bring down a room with his anger. That pales in comparison to Bane’s blast of “force energy” (as the author clearly decided to call it) that brought down several rooms and wholistically an enormous structure in one go. It does not compare with nudging a moon out of orbit, and crushing the bones of a trained Sith Lord as an afterthought.
Anakin is able to make lightsaber masters who by your own admission may be better then Kas'im look like utter jokes
Who are these lightsaber masters? Yoda and Mace? Pray tell me you are kidding.
Dooku? Kas’im is above Dooku, by the authors own admission “he mastered every lightsaber form”, and spent decades perfecting the nuances of each form. He was powerful enough to initially withstand a blast of energy that tore apart the “Great Rakatan Temple.”
And when have I ever admitted that these lightsaber masters were stronger? I said Kas’im was comparable to PT tops like Yoda and Mace Windu in the dueling department. Whether he is stronger or weaker is subject to another debate.
Your right Maul is no Bane, he has only mastered more, and dedicated his life to his martial prowess,
Dude, I cannot believe you are implying this. Bane would wtfdestroy Maul. Where is it stated that Maul mastered every form? If it is stated, please show me directly, because I cannot believe he did. He was caught by surprise from that Black sun leader (you can see the blood spurting from his chest from the knife wound.)
Bane is just more prodigious, and stronger in the force.
Yeah after he gathered and unleashed all his reservoirs of force energy which with anybody with a brain WOULDN'T do, he was left completely drained.
Insomuch as Bane, before unleashing the wave, was fighting in the hardest duel in his life, of course he would be tired after using the technique. He could of unleashed the blast on Korriban and utterly pulverized all the dark Jedi there, and probably not be as tired.
sigh do i need to post that quote again which proves vaders saber skills by the OT?
Vader shredded a 1m thick blast door by just screaming obi wans name, and in empire comics he froze bolts in the air and sent them back flying onto his targets. JJ posted that link and he confirmed it
Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.
Notice that the ASP droids were programed with every known form? And that they were stronger than humans?
Vader developed a personalized version of Djem So, battling with one hand only while keeping the other slack at his side, a style that included elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. It was resoundingly effective, both as a practical fighting style and a psychological weapon.
Last thing, When vader fought luke skywalker in ROTJ, it was proven luke was using vaders own form of djem so and proved its effectivness even against its own practionar, That just proves how deadly vaders lightsaber form is.
It is logical to assume luke did because he learnt soresu from obi wan, ataru from yoda and his lightsaber was originally designed for a djem so practitionar and isnt vaders lightsaber form are made up of these elements as RODV pointed out?
Your typing the same thing over and over, its quite annoying, single out the points that deal with one thing as I did and delete the rest that have already been addressed. It makes the argument flow much smoother and I have to respond to 80 points dealing with the same thing.
Obi Wans feelings:
Lets also take into account the fact that the duel in ROTS Novel is MUCH shorter, and that particular dialog doesn't occur in the movies, hell the ENTIRE ending dialog is pretty much different from the movie, I go with the higher source of canon. In the movie there was NO hesitation, Obi Wan was ready to hack Anakin in half when he was lying on the table defenseless. Oh yeah real conflicted, the difference between Anakin being conflicted and Obi Wan is even if Obi Wan was hesitating, Anakin being infuriated is not his best, he makes stupid reckless choices and is not fighting to the best of his ability, Anakin focusing his anger is damn near unstoppable.
On Kas'im lack of style changing:
In their round one half page long duel Kas'im ATTACKS six times the rest is pure defense, now your logically expecting me to believe that EACH one of those blows was the highest most dangerous level of each form? Get real. Your argument is so flawed for the fact that the duel wasn't that long, your trying to make it seem as if it was Anakin v Obi Wan but in reality it was more like Anakin v Dooku ROTS, very short with one dominate. Im not saying Kas'im wasn't trying his hardest its just he couldn't display his leet dueling skills because he was being
overwhelmed.
Qordris:
By your own admission the students he brought out of the Academy were on the level of Liea in Dark Empire, that is INCREDIBLY crappy for students who'ev been their for years. Now obviously he wasn't that good of a teacher since he was shelling out crap and really couldn't even control his students. What your failing to grasp is that the Brotherhood of Darkness sucked ass overall, so its no stretch that their leaders, whom Revan alone had more darkside knowledge then all 26 lord combined, sucked ass also
Obi Wan's connection
Obi Wan does not have some godly connection, I 've already established this since he had his defenses overwhelmed by Dooku, twice, and Ventress also. Him beating Grevious is not a big feat considering the condition Grevious was in and considering Obi Wan's style was custom built to beat that type of foe. That being said it wasn't Obi Wans uber connection that gave him the edge in the fight it was his reliance on a particular style and his profincey in it.
Bane's speed compared to DE Sids and Luke:
You still have no proof of either case, so the point is irrelevant:
This is Banes max speed, that we know of:
"Kas'im lunged again, and the room around them was filled with the hiss hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats." - 242
Now with that I did a comparison, at multiple points in the duel Anakin and Obi Wan match that, (I used my own heart beat as a reference) and in the span of about 5 seconds they have about 25 passes at each other. Now I'm not doubting(nor have I ever have) that Bane is faster than OT Vader, but ROTS Anakin? Hells no.
Sidious speed:
"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?"
How does that imply that he couldn't keep up? He was confused that he has just seen his old, politician, mentor going blow for blow with Mace Windu. I would say "Is that Palpatine!?" too.
Um whose ass did pull Sidious getting faster out of? There is NO evidence that he got faster as of DE or even that his lightsaber skills have improved. The only definite evidence of growth we have is in force skill, which multiple sources state that he consulted the Ancients and they taught him, that he scoured the galaxy for force information and learned them. None of this makes mention of his personal dueling skills, none of it. You can't make a logical deduction either because Sidious uses the same speed against Mace, and is moving as far as I can tell just as fast.
Sidious and Bane
Your do understand that by TMP Sidious was ALREADY the strongest of his lineage, that includes Bane.
"The Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge."
-- Darkside Sourcebook, Chapter Five: Dark Side Traditions, Page 85.
Sidious in all incarnations > Bane.
Bane's stupid force blast:
Again, he had to gather force energy too knock down a 20,000+ year old building, no matter how hard you don't want the temples EXTREME age to have a factor in this it does.
KJA's implications:
No. If he didn't put it in his short story its speculation and I WILL NOT accept it in this debate, simple as that. I could care less if he implies Bane could make the universe implode if he wanted too, I wont take it as fact unitl its in a story. End of discussion
Anakin being on the level of the best:
"he attained a level of perfection for each form of lightsabe, pretty damn close to the degree that Yoda or Dooku had with their respective
forms."
You didn't say Mace you said Dooku, And again Im not kidding Anakin focusing his rage is match for the PT top 4 Sidious, Mace, Yoda and Dooku. I can't stress enough the fact that he BEAT DOOKU IN 8 F*CKING SECONDS! That alone is more impressive then ANYTHING Bane has done, Anakin was a monster, he made all of Dooku's expansive saber knowledge, force knowledge into a actual joke, the authors words not mine. Anakin focusing his rage would RAPE Bane, Kas'im and would even be a match for Yoda and Sidious (They'd probably win)
Maul:
Did I EVER say Maul has mastered every form? No. I said he was mastered more because well Bane hasn't mastered anything, he is a Djem So adept with a uber force connection. I SAID Bane had a stronger connection the Maul. But based on his movements in TMP and Banes "two heartbeats" speed Im doubting Bane is that much faster then him and considering the one Vader fought was created from the pure darkside, and had all Mauls knowledge of martial and saber forms, he most likely was better then TMP form. That said, Vader has dealt with that kind of speed Bane has before and you know, matched it and won...
Banes stupid blast:
It was STILL stupid no matter how you slice it, and considering the attack failed and the ONLY reason he won was because of the temple (something he didn't plan) Had Kas'im taken four steps forward and gave his speech, Bane would have died on Lehon.
OK, just a few things to say, being as this thread makes my head hurt with all the blatant fanboyKas'im, I mean fanboyism...
First off, I remember when Styles first got here we disagreed on something, then to the best of knowledge, we squashed it, with no hard feelings, at least on my part. I do not remember making him look silly or calling him out on anything inparticular. If i did, refresh my memory.
However, don't try to "redirect" (since you like that shit so much), the focus of your ridiculous assertions and anti-Vader bias, on to me. AC is continuously handing you your ass, and that was a vain attempt to pull me into the shit cause you cant handle actual debating.
Secondly, as far as Anakin/Vader not being the one, GL states, "Anakin is the chosen one, then he joins the darkside and he's still the chosen one, as he fulfils the prophecy and gets rid of the Sith."
That's basically word for word, if it's off, by all means someone correct it, but the point I KNOW is correct, is when he says, "he joins the darkside and he's still the chosen one." So you can take the nadds out of you mouth and accept the truth, as painful as it is, that you don't make ANY decisions as far as SW is considered and your opinion means less thimble full of shit.
Now, as far as the topic, Bane is incredibly powerful, and is faster than Vader, but Vader takes this, however not easily. The speed is only a slight factor at most. No one knows the extent to Vader's mastery of all the forms, but to have the knowledge to be able to incorporate all of them into one customized style says something about his skill and prowess.
It seems all you like saying is "Vader is a slow piece of crap." like you of all people saying that, makes it so or makes any of us change our minds. If Vader sucked so badly, he wouldn't have survived as long as he did to the point where the only could kill him, was himself, which is also a nod to him being the chosen one. He could have force pulled Luke's saber to him and cit Sidious in half, but that wouldn't have killed him as well. So he picks him up, sacrifices himself and kills Palps, thusly fulfilling the prophecy. Look it up.