Originally posted by Sexyback
Do you really think that matters when we see just exactly how whack he is in the movies. He's slow, unagile, clumsy, his precision sucks, he's just generally unskilled.
Its a "contradiction" right?
Do you think DE matters because we see boba die in ROTJ? "True form of canon" what.If it applies to boba then it applies to vader.
Why do you persist in bringing this point up? The argument has only been corrected like a gazillion times. Now we only see Boba fall into the Sarlacc, we don't see him die, it's further explained how he escapes in his series of novels, there's no contradiction.
Generally unskilled? Lucas allowed James luceno to change that, merging all forms into his djem so, that pretty much shows how much skills he has.
That's great, he still sucks, as shown by the OT.
Yes we did, jabba confirmed to all those who fell into the pit die and we saw boba die falling in there so we assume he dies.
1. Didn't realise that Jabba was omniscient. Who would have guessed?
2. Key word = assume. The EU shows that our assumption was wrong.
3. Why do you consider to bring this point up? You know you're wrong, Advent completely owned you last time the topic came up, and you conceded your argument.
We also assume vader is slow because "he is unskilled" so calledAnd how was it explained boba survived? EU
and how did we see vader fast? EU
What you don't seem to get is with the whole Boba, there is no contradiction, however, anything in the EU showing Vader to be fast contradicts the highest form of canon, and so is rendered invalid.
Originally posted by Sexyback
Funny, didn't you just get owned bad by Zephiel7. And then he made you look even more silly with the dancing banana, I'm sorry but I think you got burned.
Kind've like you on every other thread you post on, right? Please. Don't speak of anyone being owned. If you want an example of "owned", go to the SW Legacy Comics thread. Rex and I were waiting all night, wondering where you were and why you didn't continue our debate.
Originally posted by Sexyback
Funny, didn't you just get owned bad by Zephiel7. And then he made you look even more silly with the dancing banana, I'm sorry but I think you got burned.
Funny your the ONLY one who saying this and he just happens to agree with your POV....
Getting owned implies that there argument was you know correct not just alot of text, had he been right on any issue I would have consented. However as for you the same guy who when his argument is proved wrong, as it is constantly stops posting and waits for others to help him. Go away, your still a joke, and you still suck.
hell the ENTIRE ending dialog is pretty much different from the movie,
I am not going so much with dialogue as I am with thought, but dialogue can apply. Thought cannot be deemed non canon, since plain and simple, as it was not canonically labeled within the movies.
From Leeland Chee: If it's just narrative, or someone's thoughts, or could fit in a scene between scenes, then it could certainly be valid
Examples of Obi Wan’s thoughts:
The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him.”
And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.”
“He would see his friend, his student, his brother, turn and kneel in front of a black-cloaked Lord of the Sith”
An example of “scene between scenes”, would be:
«You hesitate,» Anakin said. «The flaw of compassion," To which Kenobi replies “«It's not compassion,» Obi-Wan said sadly. «It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were.»
The battle cuts from Anakin vs Obi Wan, and Palpatine vs Yoda. This dialogue could be in between such cuts.
You can clearly see hesitation and heartbreak in Obi-Wan’s thoughts. By that very fact, it is evident he was in no way, shape, or form, in prime condition. Hell, Obi Wan nearly had a breakdown by the end of the duel. His pain was genuine and deep, far deeper than any pain Anakin was experiencing. Anakin on the otherhand should be at a theoretical max due to his fury.
I go with the higher source of canon.
As do I, good sir, as do I.
Obi Wan was ready to hack Anakin in half when he was lying on the table defenseless. Oh yeah real conflicted
Dude, you are making an observation and trying to make your own canon of that battle, which is Obi-wan was not hesitating, from these observations. The fact is, written clearly by G-canon novelization which Chee himself states is a valid compliment to the movies, he was damn conflicted. He could have been swinging downwards, half-heartedly, which could be the entire reason Anakin was able to escape the blow.
If we only go by how the movie’s portray things, you can easily see that Vader is a slow ass piece of crap, who only won against an old man and a noob. Zett Jukasa would probably own him 24-7.
The novelizations are G-canon, and can be used to elaborate on the movies.
the difference between Anakin being conflicted and Obi Wan is even if Obi Wan was hesitating, Anakin being infuriated is not his best. He makes stupid reckless choices and is not fighting to the best of his ability, Anakin focusing his anger is damn near unstoppable.
Can you show me, in the novel, or in the movie where it states that Anakin, in a state, where he should theoretically be at his best was not? The fury should be what gives him the sheer offensive edge. Was he not thinking properly?
Obi Wan was smart. He was opportunistic. He was weakened. He ended up wtfdestroying Anakin. An opportunistic fighter can also be considered the better fighter.
In their round one half page long duel Kas'im ATTACKS six times the rest is pure defense, now your logically expecting me to believe that EACH one of those blows was the highest most dangerous level of each form?
Scan the passage if you could? I have lent my copy to a friend unfortunately.
Get real. Your argument is so flawed for the fact that the duel wasn't that long,
Prove that it was short. Only because six attacks were narrated does not mean that there were only six attacks made by Kas’im.
Even if you are defending, it does not mean that you are not using a lightsaber form. There are plenty of times when Dooku was defending against Anakin, or Anakin was defending against Dooku. Anakin defended, parried plenty of times against Ventress. Were they not using lightsaber forms while they were defending?
your trying to make it seem as if it was Anakin v Obi Wan
The battle against Anakin and Obi Wan was a pure “Anakin pushes” and
”Obi Wan retreats”. The battle against Kas’im was exactly like that, “Bane pushes” and “Kas’im retreats.” If Karapshyn says that, “the battle was swift, Kas’im was no match for Bane” (something along those lines), then we know that Kas’im did not even have a chance to put up a defence.
By your own admission the students he brought out of the Academy were on the level of Liea in Dark Empire, that is INCREDIBLY crappy for students who'ev been their for years.
Excuse me? Comrade, I did not imply anything of the sort.[i] If you look back on page seven of this thread [i]I said “According to Leia, who received equally as much, perhaps less, training than the padawans at Korriban…”
I have reason to suspect that padawan’s received more training, given that they were Kaan’s hope for the future of the war.
Now obviously he wasn't that good of a teacher since he was shelling out crap and really couldn't even control his students.
Not being able to control a “visionary” like Bane is more a plot device and highlights Bane’s charisma, not Qordis’ incompetence. Your downplaying, not looking at facts as Karapshyn intended.
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What your failing to grasp is that the Brotherhood of Darkness sucked ass overall, so its no stretch that their leaders, whom Revan alone had more darkside knowledge then all 26 lord combined, sucked ass also
Dude, Revan was a genius and a prodigy among prodigies. Obviously they did not have as much knowledge. Again, do not downplay them by comparing them to somebody way above their caliber. That is like saying Dooku sucks because he cannot defeat DN Luke. Revan was intellectually one of the greatest Sith Lords in history. He as able to devour the knowledge from Malachor at a short span, he was also able to plunder and understand perfectly many of the secrets from places such as Korriban , the archives at Dantooine, and Coruscant.
If I were to compare a man of 169 IQ with Albert Einstein, it would obviously be unfair. I could say the guy with 169 IQ is a dumbass because Einstein developed the theory of relativity. The guy with 169 IQ is in no way an idiot or inadequate.
I've already established this since he had his defenses overwhelmed by Dooku,
Count friggen Dooku is maybe the third or fourth best force user of the PT, faulty comparison man. Dooku was just plain better, hell he was one of the best of that time.
Ventress
In CW. The second time, in Obsession, Ventress was strong enough to withstand against Anakin and Obi Wan. She is by no means weak, since she could take them both on.
Grevious was in and considering Obi Wan's style was custom built to beat that type of foe.
Proof? We know Mace believed that Obi Wan would fare better than anyone else. This could be for the reason that he was able to channel the force in such a way so as to give him full power with Soresu. Grievous was programmed with knowledge in every form and incredible reflexes. In CW cartoons Grievous was able to contend with 5 masters at once and devastate them. Before you say that CW is non canon, he wouldn’t be able to do that in actual SW, considering that they were all augmented so as to show some of Grievous’ power.
Not to mention, that in his half hearted state, Obi Wan was able to summon the force so as to match Anakin. They both have their hands in front of each other, but they are both tossed away. Clearly, Obi Wan’s strength in the force also helped in his duel against Anakin.
You still have no proof of either case, so the point is irrelevant:
The point is not irrelevant, it stands. It shows how fast Bane was. Anakin could barely make out the [/i]blur[/i] that was Palpatine, and this is by ROTS when he is weaker.
"Kas'im lunged again, and the room around them was filled with the hiss hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats." – 242
The fundamental flaw is that you are comparing their attacks as per your heart beat. Why would it be compared to yours? Why not make it Donavan Bailey’s? Or mine? Or Lucas’? Or maybe Jesus? Whatmore, you were using your resting heartrate, if you think those numbers are small.
The time in the space of two heartbeats varies per person. The fact is, the timing between the two heartbeats was between Bane and Kas’im.
Consider: They were both engulfed in the battle of their life. Their active heart rate is no doubt going to be considerably high, they are exhausted. A rather low heart rate maybe 240 heart beats per minute, given that they are both Sith Lords, excellent duelists, and incredibly fit hence able to reach high maximum heart rates. For all intents and purposes it most probably could have been higher, as Bane was exhausted after the fight (he collapsed).
Let me do some calculations. If their heart rate is roughly 240 beats/ minute at the time of combat, then the measure of the number of heart beats per second is roughly 4 beats/second.
Now, to translate that into the amount of lightsaber blows per second we do further calculations:
(4 beats/1 second )* (6 lightsaber blows/ 2 beats) is equal to 12 fvcking lightsaber blows per ONE second!
12 lightsaber blows is a virtual blur, faster than the eyes can see. We are talking faster than Yoda.
Consider again that I was being a minamilist with these numbers. Twelve could easily be 20 or maybe even more.
I have watched several points of the Anakin versus Obi Wan duel on Mustafar.
One of fastest points of that duel was when Anakin states “you will try.” At that point he leaps.
I timed the battle between :50 and :02, which would of course be twelve seconds.
Afterwards I did a count. In twelve seconds, the duo had a 20 lightsaber *hits* against one another.
Twenty lightsaber hits per twelve seconds means that the duo made 1.69 swipes against one another per second.
The difference is between 1.69 swipes of the lightsaber/round second and 12 swipes of the lightsaber/ second.
Bane was, at the lower estimate of my calculations, moving almost 8 times faster than Anakin.
In either way, ROTS Anakin goes down hard.
"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?"
How does that imply that he couldn't keep up? He was confused that he has just seen his old, politician, mentor going blow for blow with Mace Windu. I would say "Is that Palpatine!?" too.
Insomuch as Anakin saw Sidious as a “blur of speed” and could not even see his lightsaber blows, proves that he could barely see Sidious. If the author did not want to signify that Anakin could not see him, I am sure he could have used better words. There are many such words to describe the feeling you are referring to. He could of said that “Anakin was bewildered by the sinister figure that wielded the lightsaber with such proficiency”
Um whose ass did pull Sidious getting faster out of? There is NO evidence that he got faster as of DE or even that his lightsaber skills have improved.
He was in a younger stronger body at the time. Not to mention, he seems to have grown considerably stronger in the force, being able to create a technique capable of destroying a fleet. As explained by Kas’im, as your ability in the force grows, the ability of your dueling skill should consequently increase as well. Factor in that he was younger and physically stronger, we can deduce from both of these facts he should be moving faster as well.
"The Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge."
Two things which seems to illustrate some faulty logic on your part. You ignore that the statement could be referring to DE Sidious. Also, the statement calls him a genius, and later details his intellectual accomplishments. So “powerful” is not defined to be “substansive,” neither is it defined as by TPM. It could, more logically, put Sidious as most powerful in DE, if it was referring to power in the substansive sense at all.
Sidious in all incarnations > Bane.
An assumption backed up by faulty proof.
Again, he had to gather force energy too knock down a 20,000+ year old building, no matter how hard you don't want the temples EXTREME age to have a factor in this it does.
1.) Again there was no mention made on the temple’s structural integrity. The feat may have been even more impressive if the structure was new, but that it was functional and quite fvcking stable, Bane’s feat is still incredible
If he didn't put it in his short story its speculation and I WILL NOT accept it in this debate, simple as that.
The fact that it was an implication from KJA makes it more valid than any other hypothesis proposed by either me or you. Therefore, the point still stands, and is the most logical choice.
If we ignore inferences, then we basically ignore every single possible law in physics, since they all result FROM inference. They are all theories that are formulated from proposed hypothesis. By these theories we were able to make cars run, heating systems, electrical connections that run things in our day to day lives etc., Are these theories false?
Sidious, Mace, Yoda and Dooku.
Oh come on man, I kid you not. The narrative says that he see’s Palpatine as a blur, and couldn’t even make out his swipes. How the hell is he going to fight against someone like Bane, who moves at speeds comparable to DE Sidious?
BEAT DOOKU IN 8 F*CKING SECONDS!
Dooku would be overwhelmed by Bane too? What is your point?
That alone is more impressive then ANYTHING Bane has done
Except Bane took down Kas’im, a ligthsaber duelist that mastered all seven forms and spent decades afterwards perfecting each of the forms so as to be stated by the author as possibly the greatest duelist ever.
Anakin was a monster, he made all of Dooku's expansive saber knowledge, force knowledge into a actual joke,
And? In round one, Bane did much of that to Kas’im. Kas’im had seven forms of lightsaber dueling, and still he could not take down Bane.
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