Darth Vader versus Darth Bane

Started by zephiel714 pages

...continued

No. I said he was mastered more because well Bane hasn't mastered anything, he is a Djem So adept with a uber force connection.

If he is able to “channel the force into his Djem So,” so to speak, so as to trump a lightsaber master of Kas’im’s caliber, then he is, for all intents and purposes mastered (or close to) Djem So.

and had all Mauls knowledge of martial and saber forms, he most likely was better then TMP form.

Man, my memory might not be working with me here, but wasn’t the battle helluva close? Like Maul nearly destroyed Vader, so Vader had to punch through himself with his saber?

It was STILL stupid no matter how you slice it, and considering the attack failed and the ONLY reason he won was because of the temple

Stupid attack? Calling Bane stupid makes no sense… The move highlights his tactical genius. He knew that he was in a temple, and brought it down on Kas’im. The reason Kas survived a blast of such great magnitude was because of his uber skillz

Had Kas'im taken four steps forward and gave his speech, Bane would have died on Lehon.

Irrelevant. Insomuch as Bane had a chance at killing Kas in “round one” but ignored it due to his arrogance, and that he noticed his tactical vantagepoint, and that Kas’im trained him, Bane was, for all intents and purposes, better.

funny how planet had nothing to say...

edit:

OK, as far as kas'Im knowing all 7 forms...Dooku was 80 years old, and spent alot of that time perfecting his saber skills, as much as if not more than Kas'Im. He was a BM and would need to know all that shit to teach others, and while Bane beat kas'im, Anakin just out right DESTROYED Dooku. Anakin pwning Dooku with such ease, is very much impressive, and should be considered a greater feat than Bane simply beating Kas'Im, although that was quite impressive too.

How did Anakin destroy Dooku? All I saw was Dooku toying with him, and Anakin catching him off guard and overpowering him with a lucky manoeuvre.

And no, watch AotC and RotS, Dooku is OK, I won't deny that, but on a relative scale, he is not amazing, not great, but just ok. Kas'im is basically the best you can get, he would destroy Dooku/Anakin regardless.

Originally posted by Sexyback
And no, watch AotC and RotS, Dooku is OK, I won't deny that, but on a relative scale, he is not amazing, not great, but just ok.

Really? So being called a lightsaber prodigy with 80 years of training under the two best force users of the era is nothing special these day? Being one of the top 5 duellists in an era where the Jedi were at their prime is just a run of the mill thing now is it? Please, Dooku was one of the best, ever. Period.

Although thats just my two cents that I felt I needed to add. 😛

Proof that he was toying with Anakin?? Didn't think so. It's already been proven that Anakin WTFPWNED Dooku fair and square, and there was no holding back on Dooku's part, but rather on Anakin's part.

And if he mastered to the highest degree, the ultimate refinement in saber to saber combat, that speaks volumes of his abilities. Funny how when it was him vs. Vader, he was great , but now he's just "ok".

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Really? So being called a lightsaber prodigy

When?

with 80 years of training

Someone who's potential sucks bad can train for a gazillion years, and they will still not be anything special. The whole 80 years thing doesn't mean jack.

under the two best force users of the era is nothing special these day?

Yay for feat wars. Really don't see how this speaks for his dueling skills.

Being one of the top 5 duellists

You don't settle for high enough, Dooku is easily a top 3 duelist.

in an era where the Jedi were at their prime is just a run of the mill thing now is it?

It's happened to you now, hasn't it? You've bought into the bs beliefs of those who run the forum. Now please think, if the jedi were really at their prime, why the hell were they portrayed as THE MOST POWERFUL FIGHTERS EVER ermm in the movies.

Please, Dooku was one of the best, ever. Period.

One of the best in the movies. Tulak Hord or Kas'im would decimate him.

Although thats just my two cents that I felt I needed to add. 😛

🙂

Proof that he was toying with Anakin??

Watch RotS, he is quite easily able to handle Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, he makes Anakin look like the Chosen One when he kicks him away about ten feet while choking Obi, he's shows superiority in strength (when blocking Anakin's double handed swings with one arm), and considering that Anakin's form relies on using your physical strength to overpower opponents, this is quite something. Face it, Dooku was toying with him throughout the entire fight, it's pretty clear he could have ended it much earlier but was under Sidious' orders to turn him.

Didn't think so. It's already been proven that Anakin WTFPWNED Dooku fair and square,

It's been 'proven' that Anakin is superior, not that he 'WTFPWNED Dooku fair and square'.

and there was no holding back on Dooku's part, but rather on Anakin's part.

😆 😆 😆
^Funny stuff.

edit

And if he mastered to the highest degree,

Proof that he mastered it to the highest degree?

the ultimate refinement in saber to saber combat,

I love how people love to mention this, yet fail to include that it fails against 3 other forms.

Funny how when it was him vs. Vader, he was great , but now he's just "ok".

On a relative scale, he's OK. Compared to Vader, he's a god.

I fail to see where your reasoning is coming from...

From the OS.

Dooku had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners...Despite his stubbornness, the Jedi Archives record Dooku as being a formidable Jedi. He settled numerous disputes on scattered worlds and was unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat.

And I'll hunt down other quotes from various comics if need be.

Originally posted by Captain REX
I fail to see where your reasoning is coming from...

From the OS.

And I'll hunt down other quotes from various comics if need be.

Uh, Rex, I know Rampant and Neb, started this, and I mean not to infringe on your right as a mod, but could you make another thread for this? 😛 It will clutter the current argument.

One thing though, right? Kas'im learned all seven forms. Impressive. However, he did not specialize on one form, like Tyranus did. I know that I went after Dooku a little in the Dooku/ Vader thread, but he's still an awesome swordsman. Who's to say that Kas'im's general mastery of all seven forms would be any match for the ultimate refinement that Dooku brings to Makashi, or Vader, as he is the topic of this thread, brings to his particular version of Djem So? And once again, Kas'im reprimanded Bane for "memorizing" the forms, probably for the precise reason that he wouldn't do well against a customized version, such as Vader's Djem So or Windu's Vaapad.

AND STOP BASHING VADER! I'LL MAKE DARTH NIHILUS EAT YOU!

Wrong!! Kas'im specialised in all 7 forms.

Originally posted by Sexyback

Watch RotS, he is quite easily able to handle Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, he makes Anakin look like a little b1tch when he kicks him away about ten feet while choking Obi, he's shows superiority in strength (when blocking Anakin's double handed swings with one arm), and considering that Anakin's form relies on using your physical strength to overpower opponents, this is quite something. Face it, Dooku was toying with him throughout the entire fight, it's pretty clear he could have ended it much earlier but was under Sidious' orders to turn him.

How about until Anakin surprised Dooku and pulled out the form that he had MASTERED. The novelization gives the impression that Anakin was using a weaker form in order to build Dooku's arrogance, then finish him with Djem So.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Wrong!! Kas'im specialised in all 7 forms.

That's an oxymoron. You can't specialize in all categories. Specializing, by definition, means focusing on ONE thing apart from others.

Srry. Just had to point that out.
😛

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
That's an oxymoron. You can't specialize in all categories. Specializing, by definition, means focusing on ONE thing apart from others.

Srry. Just had to point that out.
😛

Oxymoron. Love that word. 😛


I am not going so much with dialogue as I am with thought, but dialogue can apply. Thought cannot be deemed non canon, since plain and simple, as it was not canonically labeled within the movies.

From Leeland Chee: [b]If it's just narrative, or someone's thoughts, or could fit in a scene between scenes, then it could certainly be valid

Examples of Obi Wan’s thoughts:

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him.”

And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.”

“He would see his friend, his student, his brother, turn and kneel in front of a black-cloaked Lord of the Sith”

An example of “scene between scenes”, would be:

«You hesitate,» Anakin said. «The flaw of compassion," To which Kenobi replies “«It's not compassion,» Obi-Wan said sadly. «It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were.»

The battle cuts from Anakin vs Obi Wan, and Palpatine vs Yoda. This dialogue could be in between such cuts.

You can clearly see hesitation and heartbreak in Obi-Wan’s thoughts. By that very fact, it is evident he was in no way, shape, or form, in prime condition. Hell, Obi Wan nearly had a breakdown by the end of the duel. His pain was genuine and deep, far deeper than any pain Anakin was experiencing. Anakin on the otherhand should be at a theoretical max due to his fury.

Dude, you are making an observation and trying to make your own canon of that battle, which is Obi-wan was not hesitating, from these observations. The fact is, written clearly by G-canon novelization which Chee himself states is a valid compliment to the movies, he was damn conflicted. He could have been swinging downwards, half-heartedly, which could be the entire reason Anakin was able to escape the blow.

No, as I said before EVEN if Obi Wan was hesitating, which I doubt from the visual of the movie, its the sheer fact that there is a BIG difference between Anakins states of mind. Your trying to alike Anakins berserker rage to his pinnacle of power. No. Its been reiterated so many times the difference between controlling your anger and letting your anger control you.

"You must learn my apprentice. Hate is a great ally, but you have allowed your hate to be used against you." - Sidious

Anakin on Mustafar was overwhelmed with emotion letting his hate and rage control him, that is NOT his strongest.

If we only go by how the movie’s portray things, you can easily see that Vader is a slow ass piece of crap, who only won against an old man and a noob. Zett Jukasa would probably own him 24-7.

I could dissect that and even prove that false BY going from the movies but I hint the sarcasm.

Can you show me, in the novel, or in the movie where it states that Anakin, in a state, where he should theoretically be at his best was not? The fury should be what gives him the sheer offensive edge. Was he not thinking properly?

"His firewalls have opened so that the terror and rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head and Anakins mind is clear as a crystal bell
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win." ROTS novel pg 80

And there you have it THAT was Anakins best, when he is projecting his rage and fear into the battle and his mind is free of all restrictions and self doubt, unlike in his Obi Wan duel when he had the rage and fear, doubled with the fact that its Obi Wan he's fighting and he's got Padme and her "betrayal" in his mind as well.

Scan the passage if you could? I have lent my copy to a friend unfortunately.

I don't have a scanner.

Prove that it was short. Only because six attacks were narrated does not mean that there were only six attacks made by Kas’im.

Listen to yourself "prove that stuff happened that wasn't narrated simply cause I want to believe it." After that little attack that was described by Drew Bane goes on the attack and Drew writes NOTHING of Kas'im's attack but CONSTANTLY talks about Kas'ims backpedaling and running through the temple for his life.


Even if you are defending, it does not mean that you are not using a lightsaber form. There are plenty of times when Dooku was defending against Anakin, or Anakin was defending against Dooku. Anakin defended, parried plenty of times against Ventress. Were they not using lightsaber forms while they were defending?

Oh Jesus Christ

"Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted and seized the advantage."

There it is EVERY TIME he tried to do something Bane was all over him, he COULDN'T switch styles to give Bane a show case of each that your trying to prove.

"The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat."

And there you have it he was displaying no form in his retreat other then form: I gotta get the f*ck otta here.

I have reason to suspect that padawan’s received more training, given that they were Kaan’s hope for the future of the war.

Oh yes his future hopes for war that mostly ALL of them received no actual training other then basic swordplay from Kas'im. They blew, I wouldn't be surprised if Liea has MORE training then them.

Not being able to control a “visionary” like Bane is more a plot device and highlights Bane’s charisma, not Qordis’ incompetence. Your downplaying, not looking at facts as Karapshyn intended.

At that point in the novel Bane was nothing more then a rebellious youth, "You can't teach me!!" "Im running away to the Valley of the Dark Lords THEY'LL teach me!!!" hardly a visionary.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Wrong!! Kas'im specialised in all 7 forms.

I gave your beloved Kas'im credit. He does have general mastery of all seven forms, yes. I didn't say he couldn't do jack sh1t with them, which is what you make it sound like.

Still, it's a fact that in the real world, someone who focuses on one thing is going to do better than someone who's focus is more general.

*continues to replace Sexyback's bypassing of the censor with silly things*

As far as I'm concerned, Anakin is not as skilled a swordsman as Dooku at the time of their showdown in ROTS, though he is getting close in power. Dooku, indeed, does manage to handle Anakin and Kenobi at the same time...

...but I fail to see what this has to do with Vader vs. Bane. Get on topic.

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
That's an oxymoron. You can't specialize in all categories. Specializing, by definition, means focusing on ONE thing apart from others.

Srry. Just had to point that out.
😛

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/specialize

^What the feck are you talking about?