Originally posted by leonidas
😑oops . . . maybe he was confused? but 1/5 of what amount? i skimmed this thread and didn't read EVERY post. avy has more scans and porbably knows more about current supes than i do and he seemed to be doing fine.
I have no clue what that was all about.
I know Supes didn't struggle with warworld though. There is nothing with "argh" or "oomph" or anything like that. Supes carries a conversation just fine while doing it. I know I wouldn't be on the celly talking to wifey while I was struggling trying to move something.
About the Warworld example:
A normal man with some effort can push a car.
If the car has its breaks on, the man isn't pushing it anywhere.
If the car starts to accelerate at full power while the man is pushing, the car wins and the man gets run over, fairly easily.
Basically, Supes ran with that car both armored (bringing up its mass) and pushing against him for a couple of miles while being attacked with bazookas AND talking on a celly.
Quite the feat. 😄
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Are you saying Supes could push Warworld without being sundipped?
Ok, let's read this carefully. I said:
"For all this talk of how "absurd" and "arbitrary" it was for me to claim wm thor was 10x, there is exactly zero evidence that sundipping boosts superman's strength 1/5th of that amount, much less the "sick degrees" that everyone seems to assume."
I state that there is exactly zero evidence that sundipping boosts superman's strength 1/5th of "that amount." What amount might that be? Well, obviously, the amount I had been discussing immediatley prior -- namely 10x. Which is to say -- there is exactly zero evidence that sundipping boosts sm's strength even 2x.
This is responsive to the debate I have been having on a few threads now, in which a number of people stated that my claim that wm thor was 10x strength was hyperbolic, arbitrary, forum-invented nonsense, and that warrior madness thor was really just thor "really mad." For example, I distinctly recall, I think Ion, saying something like, "I can't lift a car on my head just because I'm really mad."
As for moving warworld, my position is that superman is straining to move warworld while sundipped. This is quite obvious from the picture, and from the context of the comic.
I did NOT say that there was zero evidence that sundipping gvies superman SOME strength boost. There is abundant evidence in support of that proposition -- in the cythonna fight, and in the owaw storyline itself (brainiac stating that moving warworld should be "impossible" for superman).
If sm is strengthened an unknown amount by sundipping, and if he is straining to move warworld, then presumably he would NOT be able to move warworld without sundipping. This is qutie obviously the point of that comic.
In terms of quantifcation, however, all we know is that warworld is smaller than earth's moon, IIRC. And that normal strength superman was struggling to pull 1/3 of the moon. At max, I'd therefore put his sundip stregnth at 3x -- his max strength w/o sd was 1/3 of the moon; max strength w/ sd was a little less than 1 of the moon. If the moon is significantly larger than warworld, then sundipped sm is < 3x.
That's still hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of times weaker than thanos, who before a 10x+ increase in power, was a planet buster. If warworld (or earth's moon) is like a tricycle, an average-sized planet is like an aircraft carrier.
MOREOVER, blowing something to smithereens with a blow takes massively more power than moving it. For example, I can pick up and flip a small rock around in my hands. On the other hand, I could punch the rock all day and probably never even chip it. (Indeed, I would probably hurt myself in the process).
It is as if, in other words, pre-death-amped thanos is destroying aircraft carriers (accidentally) in his fistfights while superman is pushing a tricyle around. And pre-death-amped thanos is AT LEAST 10x weaker than post-amp thanos. This was the stated boost of a single amp. If we assume the other amp was of similar magnitude, which seems reasonable to me, that suggests that thanos is curently 100x his strength in the planet-busting comic. Which means that thanos at 1/100th superman strength is still hundreds or thousands of times stronger than superman.
Finally, ALL of this ignores the fact that thanos has over the years continuously used mystical and technological sources to amp his power permanently as well. Thanos is vastly more powerful than in his drax-fighting days.
Originally posted by leonidas
oops . . . maybe he was confused? but 1/5 of what amount? i skimmed this thread and didn't read EVERY post.
I was confused?
Maybe you didn't bother reading the posts because you realized that you have been talking out of your ass about a character you knew very little about?
I had only skimmed a couple thanos comics prior to getting into these arguments (now i've obviously looked at more of them, and in more detail), but even with my limited knowledge, it was abundantly clear to me that you, and a lot of other dc fans on this board, were making essentially groundless arguments.
Imo,
DC earth > marvel earth (by a large margin)
but
DC earth < marvel cosmics (by a similarly large margin)
Originally posted by slade10So Thanos is 1000x stronger than Superman?
Ok, let's read this carefully. I said:"[B]For all this talk of how "absurd" and "arbitrary" it was for me to claim wm thor was 10x, there is exactly zero evidence that sundipping boosts superman's strength 1/5th of that amount, much less the "sick degrees" that everyone seems to assume.
"I state that there is exactly zero evidence that sundipping boosts superman's strength 1/5th of "that amount." What amount might that be? Well, obviously, the amount I had been discussing immediatley prior -- namely 10x. Which is to say -- there is exactly zero evidence that sundipping boosts sm's strength even 2x.
This is responsive to the debate I have been having on a few threads now, in which a number of people stated that my claim that wm thor was 10x strength was hyperbolic, arbitrary, forum-invented nonsense, and that warrior madness thor was really just thor "really mad." For example, I distinctly recall, I think Ion, saying something like, "I can't lift a car on my head just because I'm really mad."
As for moving warworld, my position is that superman is straining to move warworld while sundipped. This is quite obvious from the picture, and from the context of the comic.
I did NOT say that there was zero evidence that sundipping gvies superman SOME strength boost. There is abundant evidence in support of that proposition -- in the cythonna fight, and in the owaw storyline itself (brainiac stating that moving warworld should be "impossible" for superman).
If sm is strengthened an unknown amount by sundipping, and if he is straining to move warworld, then presumably he would NOT be able to move warworld without sundipping. This is qutie obviously the point of that comic.
In terms of quantifcation, however, all we know is that warworld is smaller than earth's moon, IIRC. And that normal strength superman was struggling to pull 1/3 of the moon. At max, I'd therefore put his sundip stregnth at 3x -- his max strength w/o sd was 1/3 of the moon; max strength w/ sd was a little less than 1 of the moon. If the moon is significantly larger than warworld, then sundipped sm is < 3x.
That's still hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of times weaker than thanos, who before a 10x+ increase in power, was a planet buster. If warworld (or earth's moon) is like a tricycle, an average-sized planet is like an aircraft carrier.
MOREOVER, blowing something to smithereens with a blow takes massively more power than moving it. For example, I can pick up and flip a small rock around in my hands. On the other hand, I could punch the rock all day and probably never even chip it. (Indeed, I would probably hurt myself in the process).
It is as if, in other words, pre-death-amped thanos is destroying aircraft carriers (accidentally) in his fistfights while superman is pushing a tricyle around. And pre-death-amped thanos is AT LEAST 10x weaker than post-amp thanos. This was the stated boost of a single amp. If we assume the other amp was of similar magnitude, which seems reasonable to me, that suggests that thanos is curently 100x his strength in the planet-busting comic. Which means that thanos at 1/100th superman strength is still hundreds or thousands of times stronger than superman.
Finally, ALL of this ignores the fact that thanos has over the years continuously used mystical and technological sources to amp his power permanently as well. Thanos is vastly more powerful than in his drax-fighting days. [/B]
Got it. 😉
Originally posted by snoopdogg
So Thanos is 1000x stronger than Superman?Got it. 😉
A weak thanos has destroyed a planet with his fists. Current thanos makes bouquets out of comets, and survives planetary explosions and supernovas unscathed.
Superman can't pull, much less destroy, earth's moon (small relative to other moons, and infinitessimally small relative to a planet) on his own power.
Got it? 😉
Originally posted by slade10Superman destroyed a moon with one strike.
A weak thanos has destroyed a planet with his fists. Current thanos makes bouquets out of comets, and survives planetary explosions and supernovas unscathed.Superman can't pull, much less destroy, earth's moon (small relative to other moons, and infinitessimally small relative to a planet) on his own power.
Got it? 😉
Planetary explosions and supernovas you say? I wonder is Supes has dealt with those before?
In JLA #7 he moved the moon as energy Supes who is weaker than normal Supes by himself if I remember right.
Oh wait you said Thanos may be 10,000x stronger than Supes. I guess you cannot compete with that.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Superman destroyed a moon with one strike.Planetary explosions and supernovas you say? I wonder is Supes has dealt with those before?
In JLA #7 he moved the moon as energy Supes who is weaker than normal Supes by himself if I remember right.
Oh wait you said Thanos may be 10,000x stronger than Supes. I guess you cannot compete with that.
He flew through an explicitly SMALL moon and cut it in half. He needed wonder woman and mm to help him tug earth's moon, which is 1/100th the size of earth, which is an even tinier fraction of the size of an average planet, and for example, 1/100000th the size of jupiter.
And yes you can compete with 10,00x stronger than superman. For one, any power gem wielder has infinite strength. For another, any cube-being or abstract can grant themseves far greater strength -- though of course they'd never need it.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
In JLA #7 he moved the moon as energy Supes who is weaker than normal Supes by himself if I remember right.
Oh, and I just checked out jla #7, and energy superman creates poles on the moon that are the reverse of the earth's, to push it back into orbit.
Not a strength feat. It's the repulsion between the earth and moon's magnetism taht's doing the work. IIRC, magneto has pulled some similar stuff.
Nice try, though. 😉
Yeah, this fight isn't much of a contest, sundipped or no. Thanos is psychotically powerful. The Marvel Cosmics are flat out nuts. As for Marvel Earth, although they may not be as powerful in some respects, they sure can be a lot smarter. Anyway, Supes really isn't a match for Thanos at all. I mean, the guy's had sex with Death. Superman can't do that!
Originally posted by slade10
I was confused?Maybe you didn't bother reading the posts because you realized that you have been talking out of your ass about a character you knew very little about?
I had only skimmed a couple thanos comics prior to getting into these arguments (now i've obviously looked at more of them, and in more detail), but even with my limited knowledge, it was abundantly clear to me that you, and a lot of other dc fans on this board, were making essentially groundless arguments.
Imo,
DC earth > marvel earth (by a large margin)
but
DC earth < marvel cosmics (by a similarly large margin)
😆
i didn't read every post because it was 4 and a half pages longer than when i left! and i even gave you the benefit of the doubt in my post by INQUIRING what the 1/5 was!! did you miss that part of the post?!
your tricycle and aircraft carrier example is cute and all, but when exactly do you plan on acknowledging the fact that the 'tricycle' was pushing BACK at him with thrusters that can move warworld at the speed of LIGHT!
so now thanos is 10s of 1000s of x stronger than thor or superman? one more time: you have yet to name a single feat thanos has accomplished using his strength that has not been accomplished by someone else. busting a planet in a fight with drax? how much help was drax in that accident? brb busted a planet in a fight with stardust. thor and herc threw a planet out of orbit on accident. superman has smashed a moon. supes and ww held the spectre whose weight was said to be eternity itself! beyond that, strength feats by hulk, thor superman and hercules can all be said to be greater than anything thanos has done. unless you've all of a sudden found something . . .?
your only recourse is to fall upon 2 things:
-thanos has far less appearances so finding feats is tough (true)
-use 'logic' and attempt to extrapolate based on some of the things we HAVE seen him do.
seeing as how you have no on-panel feats of pure strength, you have opted for the latter. problem with that is these types of things are not quantifable by nature. they are too inconsistent. 10000x stronger than thor, eh? but it can be argued thor was getting the better of thanos in their wm fight. and you can't even definitively say how much or little the gem helped thor! can you say it helped him more than say, if he donned his belt? that would make wm thor, what, 20x stronger than the regular thor? 20x stronger and he;d have easily dealt with the others like he did. so maybe the gem didn't even double his strength. impossible to say. either way, if he were 10000x stronger than thor, he'd have KILLED wm thor in that fight.
and you have never proven a power gem wielder gets infinite strength, nor shall you ever. it is possible that he ay have potential for infinite strength, but that has never been shown. no gem wielder has done anything beyond what reg characters have done. and if you accept the on-paper statement that the gem gives infinite power, then accept hulk is as strong or stronger, for the beyonder himself said that hulk has an infinity of power within him to draw from. and if it DOES grant infinite strength, why didn't thor pummel thanos into oblivion? cuz he was mad? insane? another excuse for the poor gem . . .
and stop being insulting. you seem to be a reasonably, if overly defensive, intelligent guy. express your opinion, make your case, and stop TELLING others what they NEED to believe. if your case is as compelling as you believe, people will agree with you. bludgeoning your point, and insulting people who don't see things the way you do will only weaken your case.
Thanos still wins, dude Thanos beat the fallen one who had dark matter powers if thanos can take him down thanos can take down sun dipped superman. Thanos also can absorb energy to like the hearlders of galactus, sun dipped superman had some difficulty moving war world. sun dipped superman hasn't really anybody anything. Thanos 10/10
Originally posted by leonidas
your tricycle and aircraft carrier example is cute and all, but when exactly do you plan on acknowledging the fact that the 'tricycle' was pushing BACK at him with thrusters that can move warworld at the speed of LIGHT!
How do you know it was pushing at the speed of light? We have superman straining to push warworld, THEN we have brainaic saying "Full thruster -- countermeasure." Presumably, the thrusters do not add much force, since superman continues to push warworld.
Brainiac ALSO states that warworld is delicately balanced between apokolips and earth, and that a slight change in its position will destroy both planets (which will ruin brainiac's day as much as superman's). You think he's going to turn on a warp device to move at lightspeed in a situation of "delicate balance"?
Originally posted by leonidas
busting a planet in a fight with drax? how much help was drax in that accident?
Considering drax was class 40, iirc, and was left unconscious for an indefinite period of time (in which he was transported to another planet), not much.
Originally posted by leonidas
brb busted a planet in a fight with stardust.
He busted a celestial body with no atmosphere and no apparent terrain with STORMBREAKER. And states in the previous panel that he is unleashing the power OF STORMBREAKER. Not a strength feat.
Originally posted by leonidas
thor and herc threw a planet out of orbit on accident.
And? No one seriously doubts that that thor can move planets. He ripped the midguard serpent off of earth. And thanos was smacking wm thor w/ power gem all over his ship.
Originally posted by leonidas
superman has smashed a moon.
Which was described as "small" in narrative bubble. Even earth's moon, which was preusmably the reference point of "small", is 1/100 the size of earth, and even tinier relative to an average-sized planet.
Originally posted by leonidas
supes and ww held the spectre whose weight was said to be eternity itself!
I've seen that feat. And there's no discussion of how heavy that is. Eternity in the marvel universe has no weight -- he's abstract. How do you know how heavy that is? What we DO know, without doubt, is that superman needed ww and mm to move the moon.
Originally posted by leonidas
beyond that, strength feats by hulk, thor superman and hercules can all be said to be greater than anything thanos has done. unless you've all of a sudden found something . . .?
Feats greater than anything thanos has done? Like what? Losing to thanos repeatedly? Thanos doesn't seem to think hulk is too much of a threat when he vaporizes him, all while he's trapped in a pocket dimension and cut off from cosmic energy.
Originally posted by leonidas
seeing as how you have no on-panel feats of pure strength, you have opted for the latter.
Have you read anything? I've mentioned numerous feats of pure strength that far surpass anything superman has ever done, e.g. KO'ing thing with a flick of his fingers, destroying a planet in a fistfight, beating up on wm thor w/ power gem. You just refuse to believe that superman is not the strongest.
Originally posted by leonidas
but it can be argued thor was getting the better of thanos in their wm fight. and you can't even definitively say how much or little the gem helped thor!
We've already been through this, and you had no plasubiel argument. Thor is fighting ss 1on1 and having difficulty without power gem earlier in the storyline. With power gem, he 1 shots ss, strange, warlock, and the rest of the infinity watch. Moreover, throughout the story, there are rather authoritiatve sources such as stragne, surfer, and warlock stating ,among other things, that the power gem has granted thor infinite strength, that he will destroy asgard and the 9 worlds, and that they (and asgard) have no chance against him.
Is this really that hard to see? Are you going to continue to assert that the power gem is weaker than the unipower? Weaker than the belt of strenght? That is completely absurd. You are either unbelieveably biased, or unbelievably mis-informed.
Originally posted by leonidas
and you have never proven a power gem wielder gets infinite strength, nor shall you ever.
To someone like you, no I won't. Because you think you know marvel better than marvel does. 🙄
I've stated that the power gem is an infinite power source, but that it must be tapped finitely. This does not mean literally that anyone has infinite strength -- infinite strength does not even make sense. What this means, is that the power gem can continously grant more and more strength, with no finite limit. This is exactly what marvel says.
In contrast, marvel says the belt of strength is 2x. They say warrior madness is 10x. ANd they say the unipower is 50x. Hulk's strenght is indeed limitless, as far as we can tell. But he starts at a much lower base strength, and taps it only as fast as his anger can grow. Which presumably DOES have limits.
And I've already disposed of your "argument" that hulk also says he's the "strongest." Battlefield bravado is very different from narrative bubble or strategic discussion by authority figures like strange and warlock.
Originally posted by leonidas
and stop being insulting. you seem to be a reasonably, if overly defensive, intelligent guy. express your opinion, make your case, and stop TELLING others what they NEED to believe. if your case is as compelling as you believe, people will agree with you. bludgeoning your point, and insulting people who don't see things the way you do will only weaken your case.
Says the guy who has been ridiculing me for, what, the past 4-5 days, on like 6 different threads? In fact, didn't you bring this thread back alive for precisely that reason?
Perhaps you should take some of your own medicine -- THEN offer it to others?
Originally posted by the Darkone
Thanos still wins, dude Thanos beat the fallen one who had dark matter powers if thanos can take him down thanos can take down sun dipped superman. Thanos also can absorb energy to like the hearlders of galactus, sun dipped superman had some difficulty moving war world. sun dipped superman hasn't really anybody anything. Thanos 10/10
contrary to the picture slade paints, i actually agree with you -- i said it a long time ago. i also said supes could at least give him a fight. in overall power, thanos clearly is above him. we're talking strength alone, though. or at least we were . . .
and one example of the inconsistent nature of characters and why using slade's numbers simply cannot work in a comicbook world -- thor has been seen doing 3 things:
1. lifting and hurling the midgard serpent.
2. later, STRUGGLING to lift off the ground a single foot of said serpent.
3. been shown STRUGGLING to hold up a single skyscraper.
immortal herc has been shown to have:
1. held the earth/heavens/interpret how you will
2. shown to be unable to left a single piece of the gate of muspelheim even WITH 4 other powerhouses helping him.
writers interpret powers and strengths differently. 10x to one writer is different than 10x to another. how apply 10x to the base strength when even the base strength fluctautes madly? and how do you apply numbers to something as inconsistent as the displayed strength levels of these characters?
beats me . . .
what i know is thanos is strong. very strong. stronger than any top tier hero. how much stronger? by which multiple? i don't care, or don't care to guess.
One thing I should point out. 1000x stregnth in isolation sounds like a lot. What it amounts to, however, is this:
If superman can lift:
100,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons (approx. mass of moon)
1000x of that is:
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Both of these are ridiculously high numbers obvouisly. Is one more ridiculous than the other?
Originally posted by slade10
[B]How do you know it was pushing at the speed of light? We have superman straining to push warworld, THEN we have brainaic saying "Full thruster -- countermeasure." Presumably, the thrusters do not add much force, since superman continues to push warworld.Brainiac ALSO states that warworld is delicately balanced between apokolips and earth, and that a slight change in its position will destroy both planets (which will ruin brainiac's day as much as superman's). You think he's going to turn on a warp device to move at lightspeed in a situation of "delicate balance"?
it was shown prior to that that the thrusters can move it at c. maybe avalon has the scan. i'm pretty sure it was him who showed it the first time.
Considering drax was class 40, iirc, and was left unconscious for an indefinite period of time (in which he was transported to another planet), not much.
yet thanos had to unleash planet destroying might to take down this lowly cl40? please . . . and where does it say it wa sa strength feat? thanos used only strength to smash that planet? no 'power'? well?
He busted a celestial body with no atmosphere and no apparent terrain with STORMBREAKER. And states in the previous panel that he is unleashing the power OF STORMBREAKER. Not a strength feat.
and you can't prove thanos's was a strength feat either. so, meh.
I've seen that feat. And there's no discussion of how heavy that is. Eternity in the marvel universe has no weight -- he's abstract. How do you know how heavy that is? What we DO know, without doubt, is that superman needed ww and mm to move the moon.
eternity has no weight, eh? well, seeing as how eternity is the sum of EVERYTHING in the universe, i'd disagree with you on that as well . . . and true, we don't know how heavy, but the allusion is pretty clear -- he's really heavy.
Feats greater than anything thanos has done? Like what? Losing to thanos repeatedly? Thanos doesn't seem to think hulk is too much of a threat when he vaporizes him, all while he's trapped in a pocket dimension and cut off from cosmic energy.
yet he still wants to avoid the conflict . . .
Have you read anything? I've mentioned numerous feats of pure strength that far surpass anything superman has ever done, e.g. KO'ing thing with a flick of his fingers, destroying a planet in a fistfight, beating up on wm thor w/ power gem. You just refuse to believe that superman is not the strongest.
he ko'd ben with power. not a strength feat. who knows if the planet destruction was strength or power. he may well have stalemated thor for a while, but by your own admission, a much weaker being can fight and appear to do well against a much stronger being. hell, sabra was beating the crap out of hulk and she's less than half his strength.
We've already been through this, and you had no plasubiel argument. Thor is fighting ss 1on1 and having difficulty without power gem earlier in the storyline. With power gem, he 1 shots ss, strange, warlock, and the rest of the infinity watch. Moreover, throughout the story, there are rather authoritiatve sources such as stragne, surfer, and warlock stating ,among other things, that the power gem has granted thor infinite strength, that he will destroy asgard and the 9 worlds, and that they (and asgard) have no chance against him.
if it granted infinite strength, why didn't thor clean his clock?
Is this really that hard to see? Are you going to continue to assert that the power gem is weaker than the unipower? Weaker than the belt of strenght? That is completely absurd. You are either unbelieveably biased, or unbelievably mis-informed.
it is potentially stronger than all of them. but no feats back that claim up, so it remains potential.
To someone like you, no I won't. Because you think you know marvel better than marvel does. 🙄
😆
I've stated that the power gem is an infinite power source, but that it must be tapped finitely. This does not mean literally that anyone has infinite strength -- infinite strength does not even make sense. What this means, is that the power gem can continously grant more and more strength, with no finite limit. This is exactly what marvel says.
what this means? so you're what, marvel's spokeman now? translating their artifacts for us poor unfortunates not clever enough to get it?
And I've already disposed of your "argument" that hulk also says he's the "strongest." Battlefield bravado is very different from narrative bubble or strategic discussion by authority figures like strange and warlock.
really? but what about when the beyonder said it?
Says the guy who has been ridiculing me for, what, the past 4-5 days, on like 6 different threads? In fact, didn't you bring this thread back alive for precisely that reason?
maybe . . .
😖hifty:
in truth, i do apologize if you found it insulting. i did bring it back to get others takes on it though.