Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi1) No, they aren't peers to Superman. I've already shown the levels of difference between them. Superman lets people believe they are. Just like he let Supergirl believe she was on his level. I've given numerous examples of this. When he stops holding himself down purposely, he's beyond Darkseid, beyond Thanos. To the point that his herald 'peers' are no longer a valid threat to him even in groups, or for those that are on his side, sit idly by watching him go and saying "This is a job for Superman."
If he doesn't speed blitz then he has ZERO chance, so you just basically conceded. Do you actually believe Superman get let Thanos get off blows without trying to speed as quick as possible and PRAY he can KO thanos. That IS his only chance. Rightfully so, you concede that isn't in character for him to do, and thus he won't fight that way. This is the EXACT reason Thanos wins so easily. Thanos has way way more options if Superman doesn't do so.Just because of YOUR re-telling of the story is repeated doesn't mean it's correct. I'm not sure why you think it does, but it's amusing to see you say that. Superman saying he is going to let loose is exactly that, him just SAYING he is going to do so. We saw ZERO action on what that would ACTUALLY do to BA. That is like me saying I'm going to kick your ass, you back down.. does that mean it was a for sure.. no. Very simple easy logic and common sense that you TRIED to throw out the window. Here are the facts that you can't EVER get around.
1. BA, Marvel, Orion are shown as peers to Superman on numerous occasions through narration and action. Heralds are not considered peers to Thanos. In fact, he laughs at them and mocks them for even trying to step to him. This is in STARK contrast to superman interacting with other heralds. BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION. Superamn needs to get serious in order to possibly gain any upperhand. Does Thanos need to? Nope, all he needs is a good chuckle and a pimp slap. Superman needs to let loose and still has a long drawn out fight. This clearly beyond any doubt shows who is clearly and decisively above heralds and who is not.
2. Superman doesn't have the durablity that Thanos has. There is no way around this fact and gives Thanos a clear edge when he does tag superman
3. Thanos is also way more versatile than Superman and thus has many more ways to win this fight. Superman needs it to go perfect for him to win. Thanos, well, he can play around and still win like he does with all other heralds.
4. When Thanos fight Top Tiers... he beats them the first time and with little difficulty. A big big difference in how superman wins... He losses the first time and gets manhandled usually. Then comes back to win the second time. Thanos needs no second time or to get serious, he is just that much above Top Tiers it's amusing when they challenge him.
5. Blasting Power and striking power... We've seen Thanos one shot kill top tiers Warlock with the Soul Gem and other herald level characters in Drax and Phyla (as the avatar of death) in one shot. We've NEVER seen superman even do this. We've seen Thanos basically kill a peak herald with a few punches... we've NEVER seen superman do so. Is this picture becoming more and more clear on how they are portrayed?
6. DS who isn't nearly as formidable in cqc as Thanos but a relative peer to Thanos.. has beaten superman more times than superman has beaten him. Guess what... as he's needed is a mere pimpslap to do so. Sounds very familiar doesn't it? That shows the power difference between the two. One doesn't take him seriously and swats him away like a fly.. the other needs to sundip and get really pissed to gain the upperhand on an overconfident foe. Problem is, if DS or Thanos get SERIOUS and go ALL OUT like how envision Superman doing (the only way he can win) well... we're talking about mere gestures and punches to deal with superman.
Lastly, you dodged it again in explaining HOW superman is stronger than Despero. You could argue more powerful in an overall sense when you include durability and ernergy output. Afterall, superman did one shot Despero. However, stronger... no way. You have YET to justify how Superman could be stronger, when he was getting thrown around like a child. He looked like a weak feeb when he tried cqc against Despero. SO please, for the love of God, tell me how Superman still appeared stronger to you after that comic.
I know what you're trying to do, but it really can only get you so far. You want us to forget about how Thanos and superman are portrayed in comics in relation to other heralds. One is shown as peers to heralds who has to let loose to gain any upperhand, if at all. The other, well heralds are a joke to him and all he needs is a laugh and a pimpslap to win. NO matter how hard you want to divert our attention away from this fact, the fact remains, this is how they are portrayed. You instead want to focus on lifting and pulling feats in some desperate attempt to show Superman is stronger. Yet, that has failed because you admit villians wont' have lifting feats, and thus that can't be the variable we use to determine who is stronger. So what we are left with is how they are portrayed against other heralds... and there is just no way of getting around that fact.
2)Perhaps. Thanos has good durability. I've admitted that. Superman has great showings of durability too.
3) More versatile, most of which will be useless against him in this battle, such as his so called telepathy you were claiming earlier in the thread that I quickly dismissed. The fact is, it will most often come down to a slug fest, just as it often does in comics.
4)I don't know where you get this idea that every arc he's in that he gets beat up and comes back to win later. I suppose it's just a matter of the fact that you don't read Superman's comics at all. However, I've pointed out examples of Superman taking down impressive groups of herald levelers, with LESS difficulty than Thanos. And also how he's levels above Darkseid, who treats heralds with less difficulty than Thanos.
5)Superman doesn't kill. It's an intrinsic difference between the characters portrayals. Superman's striking power is on a different level, just as his strength is on a different level. Superman's feats of striking and lifting are greater than the heralds that Marvel has to offer. Just because guys like Hulk or Thor, have done things once in their 40 year history, at their ultimate moments- the type of things that Superman can do without stressing, issue to issue, does not put them in his class of power. I've went over all of this before.
6) Shows how very behind the times you are, Darkseid hasn't been Superman's superior since the 80's and early 90s. He's still everyone elses, but matches against Superman haven't gone good for him. In fact, in their last probably 6 matchups, he's barely even registered as a threat to Clark. But I understand how it's important to your argument to imagine that we're using pre Death of Superman version of Superman. Just as you Marvel fans like using feats from the 60's and 70's Silver Age to back up why some characters might be in a bracket that they are no longer in and haven't been for a long time.
And lastly, I know what you're trying to do, but what we use on this forum to guage is feats, and Superman is faster, stronger, hits harder, has better hand speed, is a better overall fighter, etc than Thanos is, by feats. Superman plays to the level of his competition on Earth, but clearly demonstrates exactly when he means to that they aren't on his level. Even his other peers KNOW they aren't on his level. I've given examples of all of this. I've given examples of a character on Thanos' level, who barely registers as threat to Superman.
As for Despero?
He had to mind control the league to help him fight Superman.
http://imageshack.us/f/245/351095430ip.jpg/
But as you can see, the few times he came in close to Superman without Superman's own friends between them;
he gets rocked.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/179/550355420jq.jpg/
he gets thrown into a chokehold;
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/245/351095430ip.jpg/
It ends right after this when Zatanna starts throwing magic around.
But hey, you know, if you want to use examples from the 80s and 90s, just like you'd like to do for Darkseid, I'd suggest to go ahead, but it has no bearing against the much more recent matchups. No matter how much you try to convince people.
Also, if he WERE physically stronger than Superman? That would just mean that's physically stronger than Thanos as well, since we already clarified over a dozen pages now that Marvel counterparts aren't as strong as Superman.
Hey junta I've been hearing a lot of superman and Darkseid and that Darkseid got depowered or all the gods sent to earth or some such. Personally I kept superman around surfer level and Thanos and Darkseid above both.
If what u say is true that Darkseid and superman are peers... Why does that tell us superman is strong than his marvel peers like gladiator... Instead couldn't it say Darkseid is weaker?
And superman to supergirl is the same difference for me as a man is to a woman... Like when she hulk decided to get stronger he needed to bulk up her human mass... I think Clark being 50 lbs or whatever heavier and stronger as a normal man makes him kara's superior... Baring some
Mutant kryptonian DNA strand or whatever...
As classes go and if u were to compare marvel to dc I think Thanos and Darkseid should be considered equals.... And Thor and superman fairly equal...
Which isn't a bad thing because Thor has had decent showings against Thanos and superman against darkseid...
So ... Uh.. I lost my train of thought... O yeah.. So do u think Darkseid has been depowered?
Originally posted by Kid KurdySpiderman hasn't overpowered both the Hulk and the Thing. Spiderman using his quickness and overall formidability isn't the same as flat out having your way physically due to strength. Of course you don't know the difference you think it's all the same.
Wow, did they finally fight ? Cool !Or... are you talking about when Thanos punched professor Hulk one time - which did absolutely nothing - or when Thanos grabbed his head ?
I don't know if you know it, but Spider-Man has given Hulk much more trouble than Thanos. Using only his fists...
Not only the Hulk but Hulk and the thing. If you think spiderman can easily overpower the both of them show me, sport.
Originally posted by rotiartOnly if my 'depowered', you meant to say 'dead'.
Hey junta I've been hearing a lot of superman and Darkseid and that Darkseid got depowered or all the gods sent to earth or some such. Personally I kept superman around surfer level and Thanos and Darkseid above both.If what u say is true that Darkseid and superman are peers... Why does that tell us superman is strong than his marvel peers like gladiator... Instead couldn't it say Darkseid is weaker?
And superman to supergirl is the same difference for me as a man is to a woman... Like when she hulk decided to get stronger he needed to bulk up her human mass... I think Clark being 50 lbs or whatever heavier and stronger as a normal man makes him kara's superior... Baring some
Mutant kryptonian DNA strand or whatever...As classes go and if u were to compare marvel to dc I think Thanos and Darkseid should be considered equals.... And Thor and superman fairly equal...
Which isn't a bad thing because Thor has had decent showings against Thanos and superman against darkseid...So ... Uh.. I lost my train of thought... O yeah.. So do u think Darkseid has been depowered?
No, Darkseid still didn't register the other herald levelers DC has to offer as a threat to him. Darkseid's lackeys, like the Furies, are enough to hold back the likes of Barda and Wonder Woman, and other heros on that level and the Furies are nothing, barely insects to Darkseid. Meanwhile Superman has little problems with Darkseid himself.
Supergirl hit Darkseid, [weakened as he'd just returned from the Source wall] and it barely turns his head, Superman hits Darkseid and he goes flying/ knows he's in trouble.
Another, and of the most recent examples is prior to his death, Darkseid had battled Jimmy Olsen in Countdown, a person who he made a vessel for the power of entire New God race as they died. [Knowing that because he's Superman's best friend, no outside force could ever tamper with it. ] Darkseid went toe to toe with Jimmy, as if all the New God power combined was barely a threat to him. However, for the brief moment Superman was in that battle -- before getting taken out by Darkseid making Jimmy use kryptonite, he was slapping Darkseid around just as easily as he always does. How powerful does that make Superman?
Superman is consistently written to be physically more powerful than any of the characters many on the forum consider to be in his class when he stops holding himself to their level.
The only way a guy like Thor is a threat to Superman is with Magic and Superman's inherent lack of invulnerability against most of it. If it comes down to a slugfest, Superman would slap him around. Too fast, too strong, and generally too powerful.
Originally posted by quanchi112Mods said a long time ago not to use JLA/Avengers as a benchmark.
@JuntaiThor was a threat to Superman without the whole magical weakness angle. Superman's own words completely contradict your high only showing arguing Superman stances.
Either way, it's lip service. Which I've already covered in this thread; ala, Superman saying Guy Gardner was stronger than Doomsday. Saying Icon hit him harder than he's ever been hit, when they weren't even fighting to go lights out.
Meanwhile you should see the kinds of things he says about Batman.
Any way you look at it, it's not applicable.
Don't reply to me any longer though, I won't bother to look next time.
Originally posted by JuntaiSo you choose to ignore it because the writer wasn't trying to convey a point ?
Mods said a long time ago not to use JLA/Avengers as a benchmark.Either way, it's lip service. Which I've already covered in this thread; ala, Superman saying Guy Gardner was stronger than Doomsday. Saying Icon hit him harder than he's ever been hit, when they weren't even fighting to go lights out.
Meanwhile you should see the kinds of things he says about Batman.
Any way you look at it, it's not applicable.
Don't reply to me any longer though, I won't bother to look next time.
Your logic is wrong because you throw a few statements about other instances as somehow justification as to why we ignore Superman's taxed body after he just put down Thor.
Fine, I can ignore it. Thor at his best is far too powerful for the likes of Superman. Unlike Superman Thor's broken the Surfer and Warlock on panel with ease. Thor's broken Gladiator on panel soon as he quit holding back.
Thor has made a weakened Galactus fear for his life because of his power. That's hella impressive. You wanting to act like Superman easily beats Thor actually isn't even supported by Superman's own history in relation to other peers such as Marvel, Adam, or Orion. He can't easily beat any of these guys either at their best.
That's the topic for another thread and hardly matters here.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is no getting around this and how they are portrayed against Heralds... One is a peer to heralds via narration and action, who hast to really let loose to gain any upperhand if at all. The other laughs and heralds for even stepping to him and dismisses them with ease without ever having to let loose. There is no getting around this clear portrayal as show below.
What is the definition of dismissing? Pimpsmacking?
Your argument is full of faulty reasoning. Pimp smacking someone doesn't imply one is physically stronger. That's no proof. I'm not even sure if it implies that one is more powerful. Stronger characters don't naturally go around pimp smacking weaker characters.
Second, you assume all heralds all equal in physical strength. This is simply false. Showing character A beating character B (never mind being stronger) doesn't mean character A is stronger than C.
You have comics showing Thanos respecting Hulk's strength, you have Hulk and Thor physically restraining Thanos (the same Thanos that pimpsmacked Hulk earlier).
I don't get the "they'll slug it out" that passes as Juntai's card to make Kal's physical status a win here. Thanos has uber shields, he absorbs energy, has psychic powers and excellent blast powers. He also doesn't engage in physical fights he knows he can't win, so if Superman is this vaunted "superior", Thanos will shield up and bfr Clark inmediately. One way or another, versatility for the win, this "debate" has been going on long enough.
[QUOTE=13367618]Originally posted by h1a8
What is the definition of dismissing? Pimpsmacking?
Your argument is full of faulty reasoning. Pimp smacking someone doesn't imply one is physically stronger. That's no proof. I'm not even sure if it implies that one is more powerful. Stronger characters don't naturally go around pimp smacking weaker characters.
Second, you assume all heralds all equal in physical strength. This is simply false. Showing character A beating character B (never mind being stronger) doesn't mean character A is stronger than C.
You have comics showing Thanos respecting Hulk's strength, you have Hulk and Thor physically restraining Thanos (the same Thanos that pimpsmacked Hulk earlier). [/QUOTE
I also disagree with this false pimpslapping corrilation to having superior strength.
A better gauge would be that instance were Hulk and Thor casually restrained Thanos (you mentioned) and Supes needing to be held down by the whole JL includung Barda and Orion.
Originally posted by BentleyHow can Thanos bfr Superman?
I don't get the "they'll slug it out" that passes as Juntai's card to make Kal's physical status a win here. Thanos has uber shields, he absorbs energy, has psychic powers and excellent blast powers. He also doesn't engage in physical fights he knows he can't win, so if Superman is this vaunted "superior", Thanos will shield up and bfr Clark inmediately. One way or another, versatility for the win, this "debate" has been going on long enough.
Originally posted by vince_slice
Like this:
1. That's on his ship. Ships have teleporting powers.
2. Superman can easily get back. It's not like the ship can teleport him to another dimension or something.
3. You never see Thanos do that outside his ship. Even when he teleports he usually gives the command first.
4. Thanos doesn't fight like that. Otherwise, Superman will certainly blitz him before he can move a millimeter.
Originally posted by BentleyBut...but....but...he can win ALL physical fights. He's stronger(although he's never shown it)Faster(although he's never shown it) and more durable(although he's never shown to be) than EVERYONE, including Superman. So he one shot ko's him. Thanos wins via shield......
I don't get the "they'll slug it out" that passes as Juntai's card to make Kal's physical status a win here. Thanos has uber shields, he absorbs energy, has psychic powers and excellent blast powers. [b]He also doesn't engage in physical fights he knows he can't win, so if Superman is this vaunted "superior", Thanos will shield up and bfr Clark inmediately. One way or another, versatility for the win, this "debate" has been going on long enough. [/B]
