The Phoenix Force vs. Eternity

Im going bed. Youre a joke Emmie. You prance around here acting like youre the sh*t claiming to have punked me on thread after thread and when im giving you the chance to prove this by taking me on one on one youre bailing out. 😬

The reality is you were taken out on each and every one of those issues, however when you got stomped you buried my victorys under a ton of reposts. Something my infrequent posting as of late allowed to happen.

Im not here as often as i used to be and I sure as hell am not going to continually revisit old issues only for you to do the same thing in one of my many absences.

So thats why i want to settle this once and for all. We'll both agree on a handful of judges and then we'll go at it one on one until one side gets stumped on an issue and cant counter it with sufficient evidence. When that happens we'll stop and let the judges decide who won that issue.

The loser will then never argue over that issue again without bringing new evidence to the table.

The threads can only contain posts and scans relevant to that topic.Arguments must be freshly done, no reposts from MS Word.

What do you say? Lets get this over with!

Mr. Master owned u so hard that your kids is gonna inherit the bruises.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With new material becoming available all the time and roles and character status continually redefined, opinions and views of such characters can change.

Your problem LS is that due to the many many months since you have engaged me in debate and i therefore presume its been many months since you've cared to read y posts, you are addressing me with an outdated perspective of mine in mind. 😬

It is not my opinion that Phoenix directly created Galactus. In fact if you'd bothered to read this very thread you'd see i havent said that. What i have said is that Phoenixes foiling of Dwellers plans meant that Galan made it to Eternity who in turn directed him to the cosmic egg, where he was then transformed into Galactus. Not by Eternity because the egg was where Eternity himself was formed, but by the energies of creation, the very Big Bang which continuity dictates is the Phoenix Force.

Noone can deny that without Phoenixes actions in the previous reality that Galen would have died.

Noone can deny that the energies of creation, the Big Bang is Phoenix as thats continuity and as such if it is they who transformed Galen into Galactus, then Galactus was indeed formed from the Phoenix power.

On panel Phoenix giving Galan time to make it to Eternity is depicted. Im not saying she did it with that in mind, that was just one of the results.

The Cosmic egg is a previous state of the Big Bang and on panel the Egg is shown expanding out into the creation event.

Phoenix being the Big Bang is depicted on panel and stated on panel.

As for your speculation about the errors of X-men Forever, it is just that and it is unsupported on panel.

LT is grouped together as one of the cosmics affected by the replacement process in issue 1 pg 19 as you've noted, but also pg 21 of issue 3 and pg 16 of issue 6 so him being affected wasnt a one off error in a single issue. It was the idea proposed in that title. So in light of that your weak argument based on your ignorance of these other showings and the inclusion of the word "access" is quite soundly laid to rest.

However while as far as the comic shows LT does indeed get replaced each cycle it is my view after many intelligent debates with the one and only Illadelph that as this process is a part of the natural order which he strives to preserve and enforce LT being affected by the process doesnt necessarily place Phoenix above him. They are all just playing out their roles.

The same however doesnt apply for the abstracts who unlike LT are of the universe, that the Phoenix power spawns. Plus Phoenix has demonstrated on panel she wields more power than that contained in the universe by manipulating it and all its composed of down to the atomic and materialising it in her palm. That and various other feats place her above the abstracts.

With all in mind, next time please take a step back and assess and comprehend a situation before foolishly charging into the fray.

Your smugness was unjustified.

You are dismissed my old friend 🙂

I didn't know we were playing the game of CLUE. Nice try but you're getting owned worse than the Rhino and are more stubborn than mindless Hulk trying to break into Dr. Strange's house.

Maybe this and maybe that...Eureka! Phoenix's the power behind all abstracts, excluding L.T. Don't have direct proof or statements in comics but what I do have is "this" and "that."

that gs guy got slaughtered in this thread. mostly by mr masters, wwk is also putting on a hurting gs you seem to ignore all the proof laid out infront of you how can anyone have a serious debate with you if you cant see your wrong mr masters has presented his information with the scans to back it up you represent scans that have nothing to do with what you are claiming i looked at the galactus scans you claimed showed phoenix involved and i saw no such thing so how do you expect any of us to take your word over masters and wwk when your making stories up in our faces
wwk and masters

nice job you two thumbsup

GS was dealt pretty bad the last few pages. 🤨

I lost my count how many times Phoenix was defeated or hurt. Wolverine has been beaten less 😆. I guess Phoenix was just weakened in all of them. 😉

How about Mr Master recruiting "forum warriors" then. Now, GS, that's just silly on your part.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Mr. Master owned u so hard that your kids is gonna inherit the bruises.

Not in the slightest. 😉

We were arguing about Phoenixes role as the Big Bang and her role in Galactus' creation, an argument i was and still am winning, Mr Master got stumped on that issue and with nothing left to say went off on a tangent and started reposting his posts from other threads which have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue everyone was debating.

That is a cop out. Its what he always does when he's beaten on a point, instead of saying you've got me for now, i dont agree but i have no proof at this point, he spams the thread with all other unrelated stuff to hide the fact that he got stomped.

Ive got him beaten on a point. Am i to allow him to go off on tangent and avoid having to deal with that point by addressing all of this additional stuff? 😕

This is what he always does and it is for this reason that i have set this challenge, where its just me and him in the thread, a thread for each of these issues will be made, in each thread ONLY posts and scans relating to the thread topic can be posted and the thread ends when one side cannot sufficiently counter the opponents point with on panel evidence.

Such a match up would prevent him from using his cop out tactic, the tactic hes been using against me since his registration. Why do you think he's running scared refusing to take me up on the challenge despite a number of people agreeing it would be a good idea? 😖hifty:

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

Maybe this and maybe that...Eureka! Phoenix's the power behind all abstracts, excluding L.T. Don't have direct proof or statements in comics but what I do have is "this" and "that."

What i have is the Phoenix being stated on panel and within a multitude of official sources within continuity to be the Big Bang. With that in mind, that point is non debatable.

A literal manifestation

The Phoenix Force avatar is literally a flame from the Big Bang that is the greater Phoenix Force

The fire of creation and the final destruction

What I have is evidence saying the universes of Marvel are closed systems therefore all energy and all power from within the universe derive from the Big Bang. There is transition, but nothing new is created, everything spawned in reality is OF the Big Bang.

Galactus Excalibur -61,

Nexus guardians, Erishkigal and LT conversation Quasar -47

All energy within a reality is accounted for.

A closed system.

LT Quasar 57

Once again a closed system.

Baron Nemo Thunderbolts- 100

Talks of how the Big Bang is the beginning and end of reality. By tapping the power of the Big Bang Quasar was disrupting reality across the entire timeline. Why? Because there is only one energy source, the Big Bang. The marvel universes are closed systems and all energy derives from the Big Bang in some manner.

What i have is scans of Galactus being transformed by the energy of the Cosmic Egg before it erupts into the Big Bang.

And I have the connection between Phoenix and Galactus being directly made:

The energies of creation are the Big Bang are the Phoenix Force.

The Phoenix is the beginning and end. The power of creation is hers. It is all in line.

So just to sum up you have the Phoenix Force being called the beginning and the end of the cycle. You have the Phoenix called a literal manifestation of the Big Bang. You have LT, Galactus and Erishkigal clarifying that reality is a closed system so each universes power all derives from their Big Bang. Anything OF a reality is derivative of their Big Bang. You have the Big Bang called the beginning and the end of reality. You have a source clarifying that the Big Bang is another name for the Phoenix Force.

That is all I was arguing and that is indeed what I have proven.

Noone can dispute that the energies of creation are the Phoenix and that the Phoenix Force is one and the same as the Big Bang which spawned reality.

The point is flat out stated on panel. Phoenix being reborn in the Big Bang event and depicted as those energies made sentient is depicted on panel.

The firebird which is stated on panel to be an avatar of the Phoenix Force is stated to be literally a flame from the Big Bang.

Its irrelevant if the connection between Phoenix and Galactus isnt made at every mention of Galactus' origin. The crux of the matter is that the connection HAS been made on panel before. Phoenix by continuity is the energies of creation and if Galactus was made who he is via those energies, then Phoenix indeed had the major part in making Galactus who he is.

All the previous Eternity did was direct Galactus to the Cosmic Egg where Eternity would himself be created anew as well. The power there was the Phoenixes by continuity, as stated on panel. The Phoenix Force is just the energies of creation and therefore the power that all the abstracts tap into. Denying Phoenixes role due to personal preference is just lame.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So just to sum up you have the Phoenix Force being called the beginning and the end of the cycle. You have the Phoenix called a literal manifestation of the Big Bang. You have LT, Galactus and Erishkigal clarifying that reality is a closed system so each universes power all derives from their Big Bang. Anything OF a reality is derivative of their Big Bang. You have the Big Bang called the beginning and the end of reality. You have a source clarifying that the Big Bang is another name for the Phoenix Force.

That is all I was arguing and that is indeed what I have proven.

now THAT is the simplest, most coherent argument i think i've ever heard you make. 🙂

Interestingly enough, Adam Warlock one time IG wielder and current Soul Gem wielder says that the IG's power comes from the Power Primordial, the energy gained from the Big Bang. 🙂

The handbooks snapped that up as the official line from Marvel. Id love to see this point followed up at some point. That would make me very happy indeed 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
now THAT is the simplest, most coherent argument i think i've ever heard you make. 🙂

Why thank you kind sir. 😄

I was already aware of Pheonix Force's role in Galactus's incarnation even before GalacticStorm put this up...I am not arguing against him on that note.

However, claims that Galacticstorm makes such as Pheonix Force is mightier than Living Tribunal or IG, are the arguments that are utterly rediculous and should be entirely disregarded, since he never shown proof or evidense of any sort to validly back these up.

As for Pheonix Force and Galactus, if you guys own or read the original Dark Pheonix saga, it clearly states that Pheonix is the embodyment of Life, and on top of that, it is clearly stated that Dark Pheonix's power rivals Galactus' own, and even Silver Surfer from lightyears away is frightened by Dark Pheonix's power.

However, nothing Pheonix did can even come close to the feats performed by LT and the wielders of the Infinity Gauntlet

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I was already aware of Pheonix Force's role in Galactus's incarnation even before GalacticStorm put this up...I am not arguing against him on that note.

However, claims that Galacticstorm makes such as Pheonix Force is mightier than Living Tribunal or IG, are the arguments that are utterly rediculous and should be entirely disregarded, since he never shown proof or evidense of any sort to validly back these up.

As for Pheonix Force and Galactus, if you guys own or read the original Dark Pheonix saga, it clearly states that Pheonix is the embodyment of Life, and on top of that, it is clearly stated that Dark Pheonix's power rivals Galactus' own, and even Silver Surfer from lightyears away is frightened by Dark Pheonix's power.

However, nothing Pheonix did can even come close to the feats performed by LT and the wielders of the Infinity Gauntlet

The IG's top feat is defeating the abstracts of the universe. Think of them as representations of the concepts within a universe. Phoenix never fought Mbodys, she never fought these representations, Phoenix manipulated like putty the TOTALITY of the universe of which these abstracts are just aspects of.

There is a difference between an MBody and the actual universe:

Here Eternity is saying if he manifested in his totality (the ACTUAL universe) then he'd fare much better against the IG

These Mbodys are not the totality of what they represent. Eternity is the universe. As such he cannot appear in full form within his full form. Therefore he uses an MBody bestowed with some of his power.

How can that humanoid black figure be the full universe on panel if its standing within the universe? 😕

Simple. Its not. Its just an aspect of the universe. How it wants to appear to deal with matters within itself.

See that glowing sphere in Jeans hand, thats the actual universe, thatsthe totality of Eternity and she manipulated it like putty.

Thanos however battered an Mbody.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I was already aware of Pheonix Force's role in Galactus's incarnation even before GalacticStorm put this up...I am not arguing against him on that note.

So youre agreeing that the Phoenix Force is the energies of creation then right? 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With new material becoming available all the time and roles and character status continually redefined, opinions and views of such characters can change.

Your problem LS is that due to the many many months since you have engaged me in debate and i therefore presume its been many months since you've cared to read y posts, you are addressing me with an outdated perspective of mine in mind. 😬

It is not my opinion that Phoenix directly created Galactus. In fact if you'd bothered to read this very thread you'd see i havent said that. What i have said is that Phoenixes foiling of Dwellers plans meant that Galan made it to Eternity who in turn directed him to the cosmic egg, where he was then transformed into Galactus. Not by Eternity because the egg was where Eternity himself was formed, but by the energies of creation, the very Big Bang which continuity dictates is the Phoenix Force.

Noone can deny that without Phoenixes actions in the previous reality that Galen would have died.

Noone can deny that the energies of creation, the Big Bang is Phoenix as thats continuity and as such if it is they who transformed Galen into Galactus, then Galactus was indeed formed from the Phoenix power.

On panel Phoenix giving Galan time to make it to Eternity is depicted. Im not saying she did it with that in mind, that was just one of the results.

The Cosmic egg is a previous state of the Big Bang and on panel the Egg is shown expanding out into the creation event.

Phoenix being the Big Bang is depicted on panel and stated on panel.

As for your speculation about the errors of X-men Forever, it is just that and it is unsupported on panel.

LT is grouped together as one of the cosmics affected by the replacement process in issue 1 pg 19 as you've noted, but also pg 21 of issue 3 and pg 16 of issue 6 so him being affected wasnt a one off error in a single issue. It was the idea proposed in that title. So in light of that your weak argument based on your ignorance of these other showings and the inclusion of the word "access" is quite soundly laid to rest.

However while as far as the comic shows LT does indeed get replaced each cycle it is my view after many intelligent debates with the one and only Illadelph that as this process is a part of the natural order which he strives to preserve and enforce LT being affected by the process doesnt necessarily place Phoenix above him. They are all just playing out their roles.

The same however doesnt apply for the abstracts who unlike LT are of the universe, that the Phoenix power spawns. Plus Phoenix has demonstrated on panel she wields more power than that contained in the universe by manipulating it and all its composed of down to the atomic and materialising it in her palm. That and various other feats place her above the abstracts.

With all in mind, next time please take a step back and assess and comprehend a situation before foolishly charging into the fray.

Your smugness was unjustified.

You are dismissed my old friend 🙂

You truly are lost in the X-sea of stupidity...it's best to let you drown.

Originally posted by Lord S
Way to dodge, EVERYTHING!!1

You truly are lost in the X-sea of stupidity...it's best to let you drown.

Never dodged a thing. You were simply outdated with your information and so your argument had no relevance. Im sorry you wasted your time. If it had come about 8 months ago then maybe you could have been the one to help me change my mind. 🙁

As it stands that honour went to Illadelph. 😄

As for the Galactus/Phoenix issue well its continuity that the Force is the energies of creation. So if Galactus was made who he is by said energies then the Phoenix very much did have a major hand in his creation. Like it or not. The point doesnt have to be made in every account of his origin, but my point remains because the direct connection HAS been made and in continuity Phoenix is the Big Bang.

😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So youre agreeing that the Phoenix Force is the energies of creation then right? 🙂

Yes. It clearly says that on panel.

I just do not agree that she is above LT or IG like you tried to argue previously.