Originally posted by Gregory
But Paul was telling people how to run their churches and communities.
* as it's should be... for example: Jesus said...
"You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.
But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 5:27-28
* Saint Paul's advise is very good...
"Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire"
I Timothy 2:9
* Jesus said we should strive unto perfectness, and that's what Saint Paul was preaching to the brethren in the Church...
Originally posted by Gregory
As I recall, he really didn't give much moral advise, and when people slavishly follow Paul's advise about how to run a church while ignoring Jesus' message--and I think we can all agree that people shouldn't do this, but we can probably also agree that a lot of people do (Phelps, to pick an extreme example)--then you're essentially back to OT legalism; and lord knows that isn't what Jesus was supposed to stand for.
* there are many people who don't understand Saint Paul's epistles, even Saint Peter admitted that...
"And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
Speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
II Peter 3:15-16
* some things are hard to understand in Saint Paul's epistles that's why many religious denominations today misinterpret it... but if the TRUE Church will emerge, they will understand... because Jesus Christ's and Saint Paul's preaching go hand in hand...
Originally posted by Gregory
(And you can use whatever smilies make you happy.)
* whew! now that's nice to hear... 🙂
Originally posted by peejayd
"women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire"
I Timothy 2:9* Jesus said we should strive unto perfectness, and that's what Saint Paul was preaching to the brethren in the Church...
thats one really odd definition of perfection
Originally posted by debbiejo
Jesus never taught that one would go the the imaginary hell....
Jesus talks about people being cast "into the Outer Darkness, where there is a wailing and gnashing of teeth" (or something like that; going of memory). And I'm pretty sure he talks about people being cast into eternal fire in his sermon about how feeding, clothing, and visiting in prison even the least of people is the same as doing the same to Jesus.
peejayd, I'm not really criticizing Paul, so you don't need to defend him to me. Although some of his ideas seem distinctly backwards from a modern point of view ("Slaves, obey your masters."😉, and sometimes even appear self-contradictory (in one of his letters, as I recall, he explains how women should dress when they prophesize in church. He then says that women shouldn't speak in church. But people prophesized out loud, so...?) it's not like I get upset at the thought of people using the Epistles for guidance. I'm just suggesting that Christians should guide their life by the Gospels first. Presumably, after all, the disciples and other people who followed Jesus before Paul's conversion managed to be good Christians based soley on Jesus' teachings, without Paul to fall back on.
Originally posted by GregoryThis does not mean a literal place as Jesus was using metaphors of Gehenna a garbage dump at that time in that area. He always used word pictures. What if Jesus was speaking about the state of your mind if committing certain acts? And I believe this is what was meant by his words.
Jesus talks about people being cast "into the Outer Darkness, where there is a wailing and gnashing of teeth" (or something like that; going of memory). And I'm pretty sure he talks about people being cast into eternal fire in his sermon about how feeding, clothing, and visiting in prison even the least of people is the same as doing the same to Jesus..
Originally posted by debbiejo
This does not mean a literal place as Jesus was using metaphors of Gehenna a garbage dump at that time in that area. He always used word pictures. What if Jesus was speaking about the state of your mind if committing certain acts? And I believe this is what was meant by his words.
Exactly 👆
Jesus did speak of Hell. Jesus was a great philosopher, and a revolutionary man. Nothing more, nothing less. He is no better or worse than any of us, just more mature than most people were at that time.
Same deal with people like Buddha, Ghandi, Alexander the Great, Mother Teresa, etc.
Very amazing people, who have done wondorful things in a time where circumstances would not kindly allow thier works.
However, they were all just human beings, therefore subject to flaws.
I personally beleive that Jesus Christ learned a lot from the Far East in his travels, learned a lot about the philosophies of Love and Unity from Buddhism, adopted it into his own beleifs, and shared them.
I beleive his claim that he was the son of God is one out of few possibilities:
1) He could have meant he is the Son of God, the way we are ALL the children of God, and perhaps his followers misinterpretted his teachings.
2) He could have just been saying this, knowing how powerful monotheistic religion was, and how the only way to truly gain as much influence as he did was to claim his divinity under a diety that society already beleived in
3) Or maybe he truly beleived he WAS the son of some diety, due to being way ahead of his time, due to having a powerful charisma (that many other historical figures have also had), and due to being able to do great things.
Many people throughout history have done extraordinary things.
Originally posted by BobbyDWell of course, through his councils Jesus was made divine, there was instituted the trinity, the holidays were changed. If Constantine never was, Jesus would only be a man not a god.
Valid point, Nellie. Damage though too? 😕
Originally posted by BobbyDOhh Go to a bachelors party or something....... 🙄
Silence! For I will smite thee! 😠bash
😛
Originally posted by peejayd
* untrue... Saint Paul only opposed Saint Peter one time when they met in Antioch (Galatians 2:11-onwards)... Saint Peter used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision... the rest of the Jews joined Saint Peter in hypocrisy, with the result that even Saint Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy... then Saint Paul interfered and withstood against the wrongdoing of Saint Peter... but other than that, both of them are in good terms, Saint Peter even spoke highly of Saint Paul..."And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
Speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
II Peter 3:15-16* a big misinterpretation... the Gospel of Christ is mainly for the unbelievers/non-believers... and the epistles/letters of Saint Paul are for the brethren inside the Church... there's no conflict... 😉
Hmp...interesting. Thanks for the history lesson. 🙂
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well of course, through his councils Jesus was made divine, there was instituted the trinity, the holidays were changed. If Constantine never was, Jesus would only be a man not a god.
And on your earlier comment:
Yes the people of Sodom and Gomorrha burn eternally according to scripture, however, the cities do not.
The Gnostics don't view Christ the way you do. It was believed that everybody could have Christ. That is the Christ within.
No, the scripture Sodom and Gomorrha will eternally burn........Is it now still burning? In Jude it says the CITY and the cities around it will burn for ever and ever......Cities...are they still burning?
Jude 1:7 Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Even in Revelation with the smoke or their torment going on for ever and ever...How can all things be made new and the old system done away with if something from the old system is still in play?
Originally posted by BobbyDI think you just like to say the word smiteth....
😈But not before I smiteth thee. 😠
box
😄
Yes that is the heresy of the Gnostics, however, they still viewed Christ as divine, but unable to be in the flesh.
Read Jude 1:7 again... Consider the use of language. The cities themselves were not given over to fornification it was the people. Therefore the vengeance of eternal fire is not on the cities themselves, but upon the people Why would God have vengeance on buildings? It the people who are being punished.
Give me the verse because I don't feel like searching for it and I will respond.
No one ever told me that Gnostics were heretics, they are a subject that I have studied entirely on my own. Believe it or not I used to be Gnostic. Their beliefs are in contradiction to the message that Christ taught.
Christ is inside of Christians, however, a part of Gnostism is to attempt to become gods through ritual experience, something that is directly against the commands of God and the teachings of Jesus. Their beliefs also led to them attempting to justify their immorality, which is something that is also against Jesus. Jesus inside of us helps us to live in the fruits of the Spirit and works against temptation. However, the Gnostics attempt to utilize spiritual experiences to attempt to attain godhood and salvation, but when Jesus told us how to please God it was by loving our neighbours. Jesus also said that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through him. The Gnostics try different paths which is another reason they are heretical.
The Gnostics don't try different paths....only one, to be one with Christ on the inside.......
The verse in Rev. is. and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
How can the all things be made new and all former things pass away if this is going on..........for ever and ever?