Originally posted by Nellinator
I understand that. Actually, I was referring mostly to Christians themselves disregarding the teachings of other Abrahamic religions outright even if they contain truth. I totally forgot about Jews. I think that Jewish teachings are amongst my favourites as I was Jewish (religiously) for a short period before I became Christian.
You mean like Marcello and JIA ?
They will disregard anyone, even other Christians, who do not agree with thier personal intepretations.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Augustine was really into sin and the defintion thereof he also had a lot of interest in the struggle against lust
Originally posted by Nellinator
Augustine wrote a lot of things I respect. One mistake I think many Protestants make is that they disregard Catholic, Mormons, JWs etc. simply by their affiliation. If we what they say is in line with scriptures we must accept it. Only when it is not must we draw a line.
* yes, i was just surprised... i'm not disregarding anyone... but i was saying a specific statement: majority of Catholic women do not follow I Timothy 2:9 eventhough their "saint" put up a struggle against lust... 😱
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, i was just surprised... i'm not disregarding anyone... but i was saying a specific statement: majority of Catholic women do not follow I Timothy 2:9 eventhough their "saint" put up a struggle against lust... 😱
I haven't mentioned this even when it seemed relevent, because I don't want to turn this into a debate on the subject, but the general consensus is that Paul didn't actually write 2 Timothy.
On the other hand, I wonder how many Christians know that Paul disaproved of marriage? He viewed it as a last resort for people who weren't mature enough to control their lust.
You may be right. Religious scholars don't seem able to form a general consensus about anything; why start here?
I know that Paul was giving his opinions, but I think it's funny. The religious right spends so much time preaching about how we can't let gay folks marry because it would "destroy the sanctity of marriage," and marriage is a sacred institution (maybe this is an American phenomonon; what's the religious tempature up in Canada?), and all the while you have probably the single most important figure in Christianity other then Jesus himself giving his opinion on the sacred institution of marriage, and it's the stunningly unenthusiastic, "Yet I would that all men were even as I myself ... But I say to the unmarried and to widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they have not continency, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
The marriage debate does exist in Canada. It actually went to free vote in parliament recently in the attempt of the new Conservative government to overthrow the previous Liberal government's legalization of gay marriage, and failed. However, where in Alberta, where I live, gay marriage is still illegal as the provincial Conservative Party of Alberta has 75% of the seats (the lowest in ten years) and has used the notwithstanding clause to avoid the federal law taking affect in Alberta. It is an ongoing issue, however, I tend to think that Canadians on average are slightly more subdued and less politically active than Americans, especially because we have much less free speech rights than Americans. Most of the opposition still comes from the religious right, but there are far less real Christians in Canada percentage wise than in America and churches have less political power so a lot of the opposition is actually coming from the Muslim population.
My opinion on that verse is that Paul wishes that more people would better able to focus on the things of God. When reading this verse one has to take into consideration the fact that he was writing to a young church, where Christianity was just beginning to spread and most of the men in the church were married to non-Christian women. An 'unbalanced yoke' as it is called can have an adverse affect on a Christian's life and I think this is what Paul was really lamenting about. That is of course, assuming Paul actually wrote it.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Paul said women should be silent......Isn't that an oxymoron ???
"If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God."
I Corinthians 14:27-28
* not only women, but any person... if there is no one to interpret, all of them should be silent...
Originally posted by Gregory
I haven't mentioned this even when it seemed relevent, because I don't want to turn this into a debate on the subject, but the general consensus is that Paul didn't actually write 2 Timothy.
* Saint Paul did write the two letters for Saint Timothy... if it's not Saint Paul, then who?
Originally posted by Gregory
On the other hand, I wonder how many Christians know that Paul disaproved of marriage? He viewed it as a last resort for people who weren't mature enough to control their lust.
* Saint Paul did not disapproved marriage...
"I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another."
I Corinthians 7:7
* Saint Paul knows that each person has his own special gift from God, so eventhough he personally wished that all were like himself (with no spouse), he did not disapproved marriage...
"Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage."
I Corinthians 7:27
* this was only a personal advice from Saint Paul... the first line even bonds marriage -> bound to a wife, do not seek to be free...
Originally posted by Gregory
You may be right. Religious scholars don't seem able to form a general consensus about anything; why start here?I know that Paul was giving his opinions, but I think it's funny. The religious right spends so much time preaching about how we can't let gay folks marry because it would "destroy the sanctity of marriage," and marriage is a sacred institution (maybe this is an American phenomonon; what's the religious tempature up in Canada?), and all the while you have probably the single most important figure in Christianity other then Jesus himself giving his opinion on the sacred institution of marriage, and it's the stunningly unenthusiastic, "Yet I would that all men were even as I myself ... But I say to the unmarried and to widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they have not continency, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
"Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.
I think that in view of the present distress it is well for a person to remain as he is."
I Corinthians 7:25-26
* i view this as a friendly advice from a preaher of God... and here's his explanation...
"I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord;
But the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
And his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord."
I Corinthians 7:32-35
* which is very true... a married person is sometimes more pre-occupied with his spouse, children, parents, etc... whilst an unmarried person can thoroughly devote himself/herself to God... moreso to obey Jesus' commandments...
"And he answered, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
Luke 10:27
"He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;"
Matthew 10:37
We don't know who wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, but he doesn't write like Paul, doesn't use Paul's vocabulary, and doesn't have Paul's theology. So, uh ... since I explicitly said I wasn't interested in that debate, that's as much as you'll get out of me. Look it up, if you're really interested; try Bart Ehrman.
You are not convincing re: Paul's views on marriage. He explicitly said that he wished everybody could be unmarried, said that those who are "free of a wife" should not look for a wife, and that married people should "act like they are unmarried." You can twist and turn, but this is clearly not an endorsement, and explaining why he holds these views--which I already knew, thank you; I have read the texts I'm talking about--doesn't change them.
I am aware of the discrepancies, I think this discussion, being in the Paulinanity thread, was based on the assumption that Paul wrote it. If he did not then the discussion is over really and I agree with you on that.
Who is you? Peejayd or I?
I agree that the writer (lets call him Paul) obviously does not have an enthusiastic view of marriage, and I think it is one instance where personal bias has entered the NT, however, without giving bad advice. He does clearly wish all men were unmarried, however, he maintains credibility in that he realizes God has not chosen everyone for celibacy. God deals the cards and we play them.
* i believe the writer is Saint Paul... it may be different from the other epistles because the letter is very hard to understand and it is for a person who knows him more than another else, his son in faith -> Saint Timothy...
* Saint Paul's advice that married people should act like unmarried only implies that eventhough people are married, that should not be an excuse NOT to serve God whole-heartedly... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd"If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church" (1 Corinthians 14:35).
[B]"If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God."
I Corinthians 14:27-28* not only women, but any person... if there is no one to interpret, all of them should be silent...
*
In the OT women WERE the speakers as in Judges and Prophetesses.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I agree that the writer (lets call him Paul) obviously does not have an enthusiastic view of marriage, and I think it is one instance where personal bias has entered the NT, however, without giving bad advice. He does clearly wish all men were unmarried, however, he maintains credibility in that he realizes God has not chosen everyone for celibacy. God deals the cards and we play them.
The entire post was aimed at peejad.
There's no question that we're talking about Paul's views; I've never heard anyone question 1 Corinthian's authenticity. The 1 and 2 Timothy stuff was an aside to debbijo.
I wouldn't argue that Paul loses credibility. Whether or not his advise is good or not, it's never a bad thing when a religious leader admits that sometimes, he's giving his own opinions instead of channeling God. It's one of the things, in my opinion, that seperate legitime religious figures from wannabe cult leaders.
Oddly enough, I was considering posting a thread specifically about the chapter Paul writes about marriage. It can be a tad disconcerting unless one reads the whole thing through-and-through.
You'll notice that Paul states that anyone who does marry has not sinned. Marriage is stressful. Marriage causes anxiety. Paul is saying that we should be patient and do things in God's timeframe, being content as we are until then.
We must also remember that Paul's words are not commandments from God. They are not wrong, but, in the case of women and church, it is culture-specific. (This is a dangerous line to walk, I must say, lest we destroy biblical teaching for the sake of culture.) Would it be morally wrong for women to be silent during church? No. Would people squall about sexism in the US? Yes.
Furthermore...
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/1_corinthians_1434_silence_in_the_church
Originally posted by FeceMan
Oddly enough, I was considering posting a thread specifically about the chapter Paul writes about marriage. It can be a tad disconcerting unless one reads the whole thing through-and-through.You'll notice that Paul states that anyone who does marry has not sinned. Marriage is stressful. Marriage causes anxiety. Paul is saying that we should be patient and do things in God's timeframe, being content as we are until then.
We must also remember that Paul's words are not commandments from God. They are not wrong, but, in the case of women and church, it is culture-specific. (This is a dangerous line to walk, I must say, lest we destroy biblical teaching for the sake of culture.) Would it be morally wrong for women to be silent during church? No. Would people squall about sexism in the US? Yes.
Furthermore...
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/1_corinthians_1434_silence_in_the_church