Originally posted by jinzin
not next, you need to clarify why x's feats don't count cause "he had limited showings" just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.
He has a limited number of showings and appearances because of that count them then rank them agaisnt say high spiderman showings to compare them since obviously X was being depicted as a high end villian and didn't have "time" for low showings he didn't last long enough.
and that would be next............
Originally posted by jinzinBefore this gets entirely circular (well, it has)... I really want to know where Wolverine has been at Spiderman's speed because I really haven't seen it.
due to the fact that he doesn't trigger spidey's spider sense not neseccarily because he's faster which was the point.see this right here is what we're talking about...
what makes these character's slower to a degree that there will be any descernable difference?
It only doesn't make sense if you negate the capabilities of these other characters, which is what you're side is doing.
and again, you missed the first point in that spidey dodging the tenticals isn't a good statute of comparison, spidey doesn't dodge them as a standard.. but if you want to make the argument that he can, then it so to shall be argued that these "slower" characters have delt with ock just fine.yes you are helping my argument you just don't see it yet.
this only makes sense if you're willing to again ignore the capabilities of a peak human.. but I think we're close to a major breakthrough here...
so far it seems that you dictate that we can't use random feats due to jobbing, we can't use direct comparison's due to lowering of standards and such... so what then are you using to determine these finalities C?
If it's "logic", I must again defer to the position that logic's only as acceptable as it's source.. in the marvel 616 universe, the source says it's perfectly acceptable for these peak humans to do these things on the daily... If we're going to apply real world logic... we can't do it subjectively but we' ve already been down this road.so we ignore feats?
see I don't follow that "logic" a character is defined by what they do, you can't simply ignore what you don't like in a fictionalized media....
however in concerning bullets.. bullet have a defnite linear path, arms and legs do not, bullets also don't have fighting ability, and the ability to strategize, fighters do.how about moving so fast it looked like he evaporated?
and again with this olympic nonsense... daredevil breaks olympic records doing his half assed building hopping routine on a nightly basis after 2+ hours of doing it, none of these guys are NEAR olympic level and you should know that by now, that handbook crap is almost never accurate so there's no need to reguritate it here.
cause he's never landed 40 blows on a human before they could throw one.
did you see what she was wearing? he wasn't using his right mind! 😛
Issue number?
other than saying so, no he hasn't... he isn't listed as such either.. he's one tier above peak humans in terms of speed... and I highly call into question whether that's foot speed or fighting speed.
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1. The moving so fast he evaported is bull... unless he moves at subsonic speeds now.
2. Bullet dodging, well, everyone dodges bulllets. Not very impressive since the feat isn't even done accurately and is just polish.
3. Moving with shadows. Just something all artists do with their character. All of Wolverine's "speed feats" are really just exaggerations done by artists, and I've seen no real confirmation from his side. 😬 You can answer these, but they'll just get circular again. I'm more concerned on this point below.
Now that we've done with that. Back to the main point. I see people are trying to say that Spiderman isn't superhuman in speed. Is this to be agreed on by all of the opposing side? I'm curious because it could make a very interesting discussion.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Before this gets entirely circular (well, it has)... I really want to know where Wolverine has been at Spiderman's speed because I really haven't seen it.1. The moving so fast he evaported is bull... unless he moves at subsonic speeds now.
2. Bullet dodging, well, everyone dodges bulllets. Not very impressive since the feat isn't even done accurately and is just polish.
3. Moving with shadows. Just something all artists do with their character. All of Wolverine's "speed feats" are really just exaggerations done by artists, and I've seen no real confirmation from his side. 😬 You can answer these, but they'll just get circular again. I'm more concerned on this point below.
Now that we've done with that. Back to the main point. I see people are trying to say that Spiderman isn't superhuman in speed. Is this to be agreed on by all of the opposing side? I'm curious because it could make a very interesting discussion.
I'd say that spiderman does have superhuman speed, but it's to what degree?
cap, iron fist, and black panther all have what we might percieve as superhuman speed as well...
again, no one's arguing that spiderman's faster, just to what degree...
now as for the first part...
see this right here:
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I really want to know where Wolverine has been at Spiderman's speed because I really haven't seen it.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
1. The moving so fast he evaported is bull... unless he moves at subsonic speeds now.
2. Bullet dodging, well, everyone dodges bulllets. Not very impressive since the feat isn't even done accurately and is just polish.
how exactly do you expect anyone to honestly continue a debate here?
you ask for instances, and yet when they are clearly presented to you you either ignore them or you force your opinion upon them as the law and the letter....
There's no point in continuing this discussion with you from here, because as I understand it, it doesn't matter even if wolverine HAS done these things, if you don't like them, they don't count.
How can they not count when they in essence are what make this argument worth debating in the first place?
Originally posted by jinzinYou just said he didn't earlier today, which is why I forced this question.
I'd say that spiderman does have superhuman speed, but it's to what degree?
Originally posted by jinzinI'd personally say enhanced myself.
cap, iron fist, and black panther all have what we might percieve as superhuman speed as well...
Originally posted by jinzinBecause my point is people are saying he's in the same league of fast, or almost just as fast. But by what? Bullet dodging? Do I really need to explain why that is hardly anything new in comic dom. Do I need to explain why being rendered invisible is over-the-top? Or moving with shadows? All characters do that... so are all these characters in the same league of Spiderman too? It's fallacy.
again, no one's arguing that spiderman's faster, just to what degree...now as for the first part...
see this right here:
----->
Originally posted by jinzinI don't ignore anything, I disagreed. But I see inconsistancy and bias in your argument. You are continuing to argue that Spiderman isn't superhumanly fast, but you are putting the other characters at Superhuman speed with no problem at all. I'm not like you whereas I see something I like and I continue to use it despite it making little sense at all.
how exactly do you expect anyone to honestly continue a debate here?you ask for instances, and yet when they are clearly presented to you you either ignore them or you force your opinion upon them as the law and the letter....
You said with Willrules that Spiderman doesn't have Super speed, and now you are saying that Cap and the others have Superhuman speed.
Originally posted by jinzinOr if they don't make sense or aren't comparable then..
There's no point in continuing this discussion with you from here, because as I understand it, it doesn't matter even if wolverine HAS done these things, if you don't like them, they don't count.
Originally posted by jinzin
How can they not count when they in essence are what make this argument worth debating in the first place?
Originally posted by SoljerI didn't say all of his speed feats were, mine were on speed feats in regards to him being faster or just as fast as Spiderman. Then I read he was enhanced human today, so I was curious on this overbounding evidence to the matter.
Wait, lemme get this straight, all of Wolverine's speed feats are PIS, uncountable, or just the artist taking liberties?And what makes Spiderman's speed feats so much more legit? 😬.
Because he's a faster character? What makes him faster? The feats?
Wait....that isn't a wee bit circular, either?
I didn't even say anything about Spiderman's feats being much more legit. If you read my bulletdodging example I already said that Spiderman shouldn't dodge all of them with ease either unless it was under particular circumstances. This is exactly why I hate feat wars.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You just said he didn't earlier today, which is why I forced this question.
no I didn't...
I'd like to bring to your attention that I consider superhuman speed and superspeed to be two seperate categories...
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Because my point is people are saying he's in the same league of fast, or almost just as fast. But by what? Bullet dodging?
it's spiderman's dodging feats that were represented first as a statute of comparison.... if that becomes a standard of evidence of course people will retaliate in turn.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Do I really need to explain why that is hardly anything new in comic dom. Do I need to explain why being rendered invisible is over-the-top? Or moving with shadows? All characters do that... so are all these characters in the same league of Spiderman too? It's fallacy.
not in 616 it's not...
you DO need to explain why it's over the top, you say these characters produce these feats all the time but it's over the top now? okay.. why?
Originally posted by Tha C-Masterhow so? everything I've said as been a fact.. not bias... everything I have countered has been bakced by facts not bias...
I don't ignore anything, I disagreed. But I see inconsistancy and bias in your argument.
Originally posted by Tha C-Masterno I'm not.. 😕
You are continuing to argue that Spiderman isn't superhumanly fast,
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
but you are putting the other characters at Superhuman speed with no problem at all. I'm not like you whereas I see something I like and I continue to use it despite it making little sense at all.
HOw much sense does a fictionalized media like comics have to make? guys could dress up in something far more practical than spandex but....
and again I'm not arguing that spiderman has superhuman speed, he obviously does.. again these other characters can be percieved to have the same... you say enhanced as if that is a demeaner but by what means? how do you classify such?
what I said was that spiderman doesn't not have superspeed. there's a difference there.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You said with Willrules that Spiderman doesn't have Super speed, and now you are saying that Cap and the others have Superhuman speed.
read above.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Or if they don't make sense or aren't comparable then..
they are comparible or they wouldn't be brought up...
as ar as making sense.. again.. as opposed to what? these things make perfect sense in 616... so....
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I already summarized how I felt on the speed feats in the first place. But if you are trying to argue that Logan is actually going to consistently dodge bullets in a KMC setting, then good luck.
Ok, trying to stay on track... it got circular but I can't blame myself for foresight. 😄
My point Jinzin, as you well know is the fact that in any debate everyone will have a different view of what is feasible for each character. We are all guilty of it. Me and you will argue all day about what is good for each character. The reason I keep the rules in mind is because it limits that from happening, even if it does limit the potential of what I can use on my side, I'm willing to sacrifice that. I gave no more credit on here to the Spiderman fanboys, than to carver spouting his nonstop nonsense, because it wasn't my intention. If I wanted to do the , "look what each character has done" then I'd just put up the Thor and Xmen fights and ignore everything else. Really doesn't go far and is an illogical/circular argument. We will always agree to disagree which is fine, but I was just making sure you weren't serious when you said Spiderman wasn't superhumanly fast and I can see you weren't. Thank you for that.
again I didn't say that spiderman wasn't superhumanly fast....
that would be in direct contrast to almost everything I've posted in this thread thus far...
what was said was that spiderman doesn't have superspeed..
and yes obviously we're all going to have different perceptions of what characters can and can't do, which is why I was repeatedly trying to attain what you perceived as your standard of evidence. I have no issue with the rules being used, I simply can not allow them to be used subjectively, which happens quite frequently unfortunately.
Originally posted by jinzinI use the rules all around. But I have a distaste for feats being used in a one sided manner like I've seen in every debate, nothing noone can stop. If it lowers Spiderman that is fine to me if it allows for a theorhetical argument.
again I didn't say that spiderman wasn't superhumanly fast....that would be in direct contrast to almost everything I've posted in this thread thus far...
what was said was that spiderman doesn't have superspeed..
and yes obviously we're all going to have different perceptions of what characters can and can't do, which is why I was repeatedly trying to attain what you perceived as your standard of evidence. I have no issue with the rules being used, I simply can not allow them to be used subjectively, which happens quite frequently unfortunately.
What exactly do you mean by superspeed? If one is superhumanly fast, wouldn't that at least be interpreted that way?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I use the rules all around. But I have a distaste for feats being used in a one sided manner like I've seen in every debate, nothing noone can stop. If it lowers Spiderman that is fine to me if it allows for a theorhetical argument.What exactly do you mean by superspeed? If one is superhumanly fast, wouldn't that at least be interpreted that way?
not according to you...
remember how you categorized some at "enhanced" levels..?
same thing here..
superhuman speed is what I'd expect someon like spidey, or hobgoblin to have.
superspeed seems more reserved for people beyond that level of capability.
Originally posted by jinzinYou just said you didn't like the rules. 😛
not according to you...remember how you categorized some at "enhanced" levels..?
same thing here..
superhuman speed is what I'd expect someon like spidey, or hobgoblin to have.
superspeed seems more reserved for people beyond that level of capability.
Enhanced is the bridge between peak and Super. Cap and DD are definitely peak. Wolverine is definitely enhanced. Spiderman is Super... It's all Vague.
If you mean Superspeed like Flash, well that's different.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You just said you didn't like the rules. 😛Enhanced is the bridge between peak and Super. Cap and DD are definitely peak. Wolverine is definitely enhanced. Spiderman is Super... It's all Vague.
If you mean Superspeed like Flash, well that's different.
I'm pretty sure cap is enhanced for sure.
and I mean superspeed like quicksilver.. i don't think x is at flash level by any means but the guy was obviously well beyond human capabilities.
I didn't say i don't like the rules... 🤨
i said I don't like how the rules are unjustly used sometimes.