Ok, I only recently discovered this thread, and due to some Damn F*cking stupid arguments, I have been forced to act.
Firstoff, Sithari, you say that power is more important than knowledge, when in reality, with most people we see, they are interdependant.
It Was Napoleon Bonaparte, a man who was heralded as the greatest General of his day, that said "General-in-chief must be guided by their own experience, or their genius. Tactics, evolutions, the duties and knowledge of an engineer or artillery officer, may be learned in treatises, but the science of strategy is only to be acquired by experience, and by studying the campaigns of all the great captains.
Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, and Frederick, as well as Alexander, Hannibal, and Caesar have all acted upon the same principles. These have been -- to keep their forces united; to leave no weak part unguarded; to seize with rapidity on important points."
He also said: "Peruse again and again the campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, Engene, and Frederick. Model yourself upon them. This is the only means of becoming a great captain, and of acquiring the secret of the art of war. Your own genius will be enlightened and improved by this study, and you will learn to reject all maxiums foreign to the principles of these great commanders."
He makes it a point to study those who came before him to learn their advantages, their skills, their weaknesses etc. And LEARN from them.
And they also study things that could be helpful, like a man going into a duel to the death with swords might study human anatomy, as it helps him land a decisive blow to either kill/mortally wound his opponent.
He also emphasises the need for Experience. Bane was a member of the Gloom Walkers, a unit that DID make some quite impressive feats in combat. However, even when we consider his defacto command of said unit, he was in command of a single infantry unit.
Revan, on the other hand, took control of a army that had been driven from dozens (AT LEAST) of planets, and was heavily demoralized, low in experience etc. and, like Pilsudski at the Battle of Warsaw in the 1920's, he ROUTED the enemy and eventually destroyed him. This while managing to groom his army discreetly for his eventual return as a Sith.
He also would have been able to have a larger base of knowledge not only on the Force techniques, but also on combat, on leadership etc.
These could prove to be a far more powerful factor than we may know.
But in order to reach that generalship, he had to be powerful enough to reach it. And He Was.
FACT: He killed Mandalore the Ultimate in fair combat face to face.
FACT: He killed The One (The Black Rakata Cheiftan) after fighting his way through his warriors, a man whose reputation was so fierece that in a tribal civilization that was dedicated to war, whose Cheiftan had to have been a skilled warrior, that Said Cheiftan abdicated peacefully at the mere CHALLENGE of The One to duel him for the Cheiftan's position.
FACT: He defeated dozens of Sith soldiers and acolytes while they were being powered by BOTH the Star Forge and Bastilla's Battle Meditation, with minimum aid.
FACT: Singlehandedly defeated first Bastila and than Malak alone. The latter of whom was regenerated completely at least once by captive Jedi.
FACT: Kreia, who had no doubt worked with many powerful Jedi, described him as "Looking at the Heart of the Force." This is not completely quantifiable, but you have to keep in mind that this was in a Jedi Order that was far better trained that the PT ones, and who had the knowledge of Lore, techniques etc that had passed into the realm of myth by the time of the PT.
FACT: He walked on the surface of Malachor V, a planet that corrupted Jedi FROM THE ORBITING BATTLE. A planet that shattered Kreia's resistence withing seconds of her stepping on the planet.
FACT: Malak described him as being far more powerful in the Light than he ever was in Darkness.
FACT: He defeated Calo Nord, a bounty hunter who learned his trade with a bounty on his head by TOYING with his hunters before ruthlessly finishing them off. And apparently there were dozens of those who perished trying to collect said bounty. A man who is said never let a target survive.
FACT: He defeated Darth Bandon, the man judged to be the strongest out of a Sith order of likely HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS and trained by Malak himself.
FACT: He won his way up to the bloody Swoop Campionship of MANAAN, THE CAPITAL OF SWOOP RACING AFTER THE LIQUIDATION OF TARIS!!!!
FACT: He killed Bendak Starkiller, a Mandalorian duelist who killed so many people in death matches THERE WAS A BOUNTY PUT OUT ON HIS HEAD!!!! And that was BEFORE he rediscovered force sensitivity.
FACT: He succeeded in doing what almost no other had done, being one of the VERY VERY few to gain the Tusken Raider's trust and admiration to the point that he learned their history. This in a species that was still regarded to be only animals THOUSANDS of years afterwards.
FACT: He killed Selven, a woman who killed off the Ulgos of Taris, despite all their guards, droids, and security measures.
FACT: Darth Bane, the other member of the deathmatch, judged Revan's holocron to be far superior to the ENTIRETY of the resources avalible for teaching the Brotherhood of Darkness COMBINED!!!!
FACT: Bane said that he would not dare to TRY some of the rituals Revan had done, as they were simply too dangerous.
FACT: He killed Sherruk, a Mandalorian who had killed many Jedi, alongside his entire gang, WHEN HE WAS STILL IN THE EARLY STAGES OF ReDISCOVERING THE FORCE!!!!
Ok than, we also know that Zephiel is crap on medicine, as he does not realize there is a point to us shooting the crap out of his stupid arguments about the "Dark Side calming his situation."
I am sorry, but if somebody has their adrenaline going on for too long a period or for too intense a period, it can rupture! Period.
And that is in a normal human being. If Bane has all the orbalisks pumping in this fight, speed is key, as if he is delayed to long, he will die. Hell, if he wins but the fight has gone on too long he will STILL die.
Thus, Bane is on the clock. Not Revan. If Revan can hold out for long enough, even if he does not land a killing blow, he will still win.
So the real question is if Bane can breach Revan's defense and kill or mortally wound him before he kills himself or before Revan learns his weakpoint and kills him.
The Dark Side cannot calm one down. It FUELS RAGE. That is what it does. It has been mentioned as such repeatedly in the series.
So it gets the Heart going even FASTER. WHICH MEANS BANE HAS EVEN LESS TIME!!!!
So, barring a miracle, I would give this to Revan.
Sith'ari, Zephiel, get an actual argument. It makes you look bad if you do not.
Actually, The VAST MAJORITY of those ARE certified canon. Some are still in the air. And Those would be *drumrollllllll* Bendak, the Tuskens, Selven, and Sherruk. And those are not due to a statement against them as to not being specifically stated as done. It is CANON that Revan was redeemed. It is Canon that he defeated the Black Rakata. If you doubt the Manaan championship, Buy KOTOR and go to the Onderonian Swoop Track and talk around and you will learn it.
So even if (for seemingly no reason) we were to assume that all of the ones that are "up in the air" turn out to be magically false, that still leaves the vast majority of what I listed as UNDISPUTABLE CANON FACTS!!!!!!
I also could have added in more in hindsight, like Chuundar, but it was late here on the Far-Left Coast, and I was tired.
You also forget that I made other points about why I believe that Revan will win.
Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Actually, The VAST MAJORITY of those ARE certified canon. Some are still in the air. And Those would be *drumrollllllll* Bendak, the Tuskens, Selven, and Sherruk. And those are not due to a statement against them as to not being specifically stated as done. It is CANON that Revan was redeemed. It is Canon that he defeated the Black Rakata. If you doubt the Manaan championship, Buy KOTOR and go to the Onderonian Swoop Track and talk around and you will learn it.So even if (for seemingly no reason) we were to assume that all of the ones that are "up in the air" turn out to be magically false, that still leaves the vast majority of what I listed as UNDISPUTABLE CANON FACTS!!!!!!
I also could have added in more in hindsight, like Chuundar, but it was late here on the Far-Left Coast, and I was tired.
You also forget that I made other points about why I believe that Revan will win.
I'm not debating Revan's superiority over Bane, I'm stating that a lot of what you typed was as a result of gameplay and therefore non canon. I have played the game a million times and I know everything you're talking about.
Ummm, you just overshot the point entirely. Congratulations.
THE RESULTS OF MOST OF THE QUESTS HAVE BEEN EITHER DEEMED CANON OR NON-CANON!!!!!! AND SINCE LUCASARTS IS LOYAL TO THE LIGHTSIDE INTERPRITATION, PRETTY MUCH ALL I WROTE HAS INDEED BEEN CANONIZED!!!!!!!!! LOOK IT UP!!!!
Also, Lord Sidious, simply saying Bane is not an argument. No more than me merely saying Revan is. REASONS, EVIDENCE, AND THEORIES!!!! Please post them.
Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Ummm, you just overshot the point entirely. Congratulations.THE RESULTS OF MOST OF THE QUESTS HAVE BEEN EITHER DEEMED CANON OR NON-CANON!!!!!! AND SINCE LUCASARTS IS LOYAL TO THE LIGHTSIDE INTERPRITATION, PRETTY MUCH ALL I WROTE HAS INDEED BEEN CANONIZED!!!!!!!!! LOOK IT UP!!!!
Also, Lord Sidious, simply saying Bane is not an argument. No more than me merely saying Revan is. REASONS, EVIDENCE, AND THEORIES!!!! Please post them.
Care to try again? All of the "extra" missions aren't canon. Try again though.
Ok Than. I have been trying to be polite and explain things NICELY. But apparently commonsense and Darth Sexy do not exist in the same universe, so let me spell it out for you:
Even if we took anything whose canon is up in the air and assume it is false, we still have those that are INDISPUTABLY CANON! It is stated as a FACT that Mandalore the Ultimate was killed in a duel with Revan. That is not in dispute. It is FACT that Revan managed to walk the surface of Malachor V and HARNESS IT while others were overwhelmed by it. IT IS FACT that Calo Nord and Darth Bandon were killed in battle against Revan. There is no getting around that.
IT IS FACT that Revan won the Swoop Championship on Manaan. It IS CONFIRMED BY ANOTHER SOURCE: KOTOR II (dumbshit).
IT IS FACT THAT REVAN DEFEAT DOZENS OF SITH ACOLYTES AND SOLDIERS ON THE STAR FORGE WHEN THEY WERE DRAWING BOTH FROM IT AND FROM BASTILA'S BATTLE MEDITATION!!!!!!!!
Now, you have not answered ANYTHING!!!!!
You have yelled, screamed, kicked, and cussed me while I make rational arguments and you do not want to hear them.
So, Dumbshit, if you refuse to debate me RATIONALLY than get your ass off the forum.
Ok than. DO NOT TREAT ME LIKE I AM STUPID! I AM NOT! The Primary quests are those that are needed to progress the main plot forward, those are (these are the basic summaries, I concede that I cannot remeber every single quest name, and they are for the light side, I have never played on the Dark side) Also, I KNOW SOME OF THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY QUESTS! THEY ARE THE BARE MINIMUM FOR FINISHING THE GAME ON THE LIGHTSIDE! AND I MEAN BARE BONE MINIMUM!
*The Endar Spire
*The Search For Bastila
*Acquiring a Uniform
*Rescuing Zalabar
*Recovering the Prototype Accelorator from Doton and his thugs *Winning the Race
*Killing Brejik and his compadres
*Buying A Droid (T3-M4 from Janice Nall)
*Killing Davik and Subduing Calo
*Stealing the Ebon Hawk
*Escaping Taris
*Shooting down the fighters
*Training With The Jedi
*The Corrupt Grove (Juhani)
*Getting A Hunter's Passport (Tatooine)
*Killing the Krayt Dragon and the Star Map
*Dealing With Calo Nord (On the First Star Map you Acquire)
*The "Madclaw" (Freyer) Quest on Kasshyyk
*Dealing with the Poachers so that Jolee will lower the shield, *Deciding Freyer's Fate
*Getting the Blade out of the Terentatek's hide
*Dealing With Bandon (Second Star Map You Aquire)
*The Wookiee Revolt
*Going to the Republic Embassy (Manaan)
*Breaching the Sith Embassy (Manaan)
*Clearing said Embassy
*Exonerating yourself from the Tribunal
*Going down to the Haraket Rift
*Destroying the Mining Equipment
*getting the star Map
*Exonerating yourself from the tribunal part Two
*The Leviation
*The lone character staging the breakout
*the fight to the bridge
*the duel against Saul and his men
*Duel with Malak
*Gaining Entrance to the Academy (Korriban)
*The Prestige Challenge, which include:
*Ajunta Pall's Blade
*The Sith Deserters
*The Rebelling Assassin Droid
*Lashowe's Gambit
*Jorak Uln's "Purity Test"
*The Mandalorian POW
*The Code of the Sith
Not All of them need to be finished
*The Final Test
*The Betrayals
*Going to The Unkown World/Lehon
*Deciding Your Ally among the Rakata
*Killing the One
*The Ritual to Open the Temple
*The fight up
*the final choice between Light and Dark
*The Duel against Bastilla
*Shutting down the Disruptor field
*Fighting through the Star Forge
*The Duel with Bastilla to the Death (or redemption)
*Dealing with the Star Forge droids
*The Grand Finale against Malak
THAT is the sheer minimum to finish the game for the lightside. That is removing EVERYTHING not needed to advance the LS storyline. Everything else is pretty much optional, Character Development, gambling, The Swoop racing, the Side Quests, the Geoharadan etc. HOWEVER, JUST BECAUSE IT IS OPTIONAL IN THE GAME DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WAS AUTOMATICALLY NOT DONE IN-CANON!!!!!!!
I have spelled it out for you, and yet you insult ME as stupid when I give you arguments that debunk your yelling and slander, and yet YOU CONTINUE TO HARASS ME FOR NO GOOD REASON!!!!!!!!
If Anybody here has the right to call somebody dumbshit and douchebag, it is me to you, as you continue to make useless and false slander in place of intelligent and rational argument, you CLEARLY have not checked up on ANY of the Info I have given you, and despite my attempts to reason with you in my 'slightly irritated but polite' voice, and you just verbally harassed me! I have alerted the Mods to your harassment and I will await their response. And I will also see if you make anything that RESEMBLES a rational argument.
If you CAN make a rational argument against me, than I am waiting to see it.
The countdown to Darth Sexy calling me an evil SS intimidator and thug starts in 10. 9. 8. 7. 6. 5. 4. 3. 2. 1........
I KNOW that he could have done anything with it. THAT is why I put in:
"Not all of them Need to be Finished." I merely added it in as Sexy apparently thinks I cannot tell the difference between the main story and the side quests, so I listed the bare minimum to finish the game as LS. Korriban is structured differently than most; you have the choice of what you finish, so I added them all in to the list with the disclaimer.
All because Darth Sexy was acting stupid and harassing me.