The PT Jedi order vs. The New Jedi Order

Sorry for the double post, assuming it still is one by the time I finish.

He's immune to pain now? Wow um.. I doubt that but lets assume for argument's sake that you're correct. Apparently you don't understand the physics of a human body. If you're immune to pain and you get your legs chopped off, you end up losing quite a lot of blood. Now because you're immune to this pain, your brain doesn't get the "signals" stating "OH my god that hurts". So you would eventually just collapse in the middle of fighting due to a loss of blood, shock, etc. But I guess that doesn't apply to the star wars universe huh.. Jacen supposedly being immune to pain means he wont' scream when he gets pwned(debatable) or he'll die in the middle of the fight. Not much of an argument there.

Hey guess what! Lightsabers instantly cauterize the wound! This means that Jacen won't bleed if he loses an arm. DUH!

Thanks for that opinion. I didn't know Kyp was canonically more powerful than Sidious but you really seemed to prove your case. Oh wait.

Oh, lets see. Kyp controlled a black hole with less diffuculty than Luke. He must be a total weakling.

It's a force phantom that could arguably "have a good fight with Luke". In no way does that mean that he rivals Luke himself or could stand up to him, especially if Luke was giving his all.

I take it that you haven't read the LOTF books. Luke is sleeping when he suddenly wakes up and is being attacked by a Force Phantom. He has NO IDEA that it is Jacen controlling it and thinks it's trying to kill him and is very hard pressed to defeat it. Luke was giving it his all.

Really? Is this before or after Luke was described as "being in the heart of the force, immovable even by a black hole"? Is this before Luke pushed back against Raynar who had the whole Dark Nest before him? You're not really proving anything Glentract.

It's not my fault you aren't informed. Go read the LOTF books. It's many years AFTER the DN books (*hint* Luke was described as the things that you mentioned in the DN books).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Or the fact that the lightning was just damaging his "mask", and as soon as Anakin took off the arm of Mace, Sidious smiled and shot him with the full force of lightning.

And this would prove xxXAcStylesXxx argument that Sidious is immune to pain how?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink. Sidious IS able to use force speed.

I'm not saying that he can't use Force Speed. However, Sidious CAN"T compete with Luke's saber skills. Jacen CAN.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why would a black hole be relevant in a 1 on 1 fight?

Do you understand the amount of Force Power it would take to do such a thing? If put into a Force Push the person hit by the blast would be instantly pulverized. The main reason it's important however is that it shows Kyp's awsome all around Force prowless.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet he could not and would not defeat Yoda because his overall force mastery and saber skills are not on Yoda's level.

Exactly! I never stated that Jacen is better overall than Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jacen couldn't have done what Luke did to Raynar, trust me.

I'm not saying that he could. Jacen isn't as strong as Luke, he just rivals him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except it why? One book makes Luke superior to Jacen by far, next book makes them almost equal. Which one are we to accept?

When was the last time a book made Luke superior to Jacen by far?

So the fact that he was able to stand up a minute after the lightning hit him must mean that he was faking the thing, right? WRONG! If this was true, I duess Luke must have been faking the pain in ROTJ.

"faking the thing"

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume your talking about the pain not the actual lightning part of the duel which is confirmed he was bullshitting to turn Anakin, I'm basing him not being harmed based on the fact that he was acting while being blasted, he kept pumping energy into it, and he was smiling literally two seconds later. The fact that your comparing Padawan Luke Skywalker to Sith Lord Sidious is what makes your comparison wrong.

It's like when a friend of mine shot himself with a tazer (his dad is a cop and let us play with one) he was on the ground writhing in pain while it was on but was fine only seconds after he turned it off.

So...you proved nothing but that your friend is a complete idiot...Tazeer =/= Force Lightning.

And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious, not his DE incarnation. For the record, DE Sidious would defeat Jacen for sure. He'd still have a hard time, but it'd be a solid win for DE Sidious. Notice the repeated use of DE.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord." - ROTS novel

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS.

Why shouldn't him controlling a black hole count as an argument? Anyway, Kyp Durron did pull a complete thunderstorm out of his sleeve after studying the force for one year.

And it never occured to you that Jacen might have a particular talen in that area? Want some examples where a weaker person is better at particular talent? Here:

Regardless, you didn't say that, you didn't specify this, you posted in regards to POWER. Not TALENT.

Now then, Jacen lost to Luke, but he was able to give him a hard time. Now, I'm NOT a fan of Jacen being this close to Luke in power, but that's just how the story has unfolded and we all have to accept it.

First off the only instances of a "force phantom duel" was in Betrayal and that was a Dark Side Luke, which book is this other "force phantom duel" in

It's not my fault you aren't informed. Go read the LOTF books. It's many years AFTER the DN books (*hint* Luke was described as the things that you mentioned in the DN books).

Accept for the fact that what your debating happened in DN not LOTF (the Raynar not being able to control Jacen) And BEFORE Lukes utter ownage of Raynar and Lomi Plo.

And this would prove xxXAcStylesXxx argument that Sidious is immune to pain how?

It doesn't, and I never said that I said, it doesn't matter, I was only giving an example of Sidious high pain threshold, making Jacens "immune" to pain irrelevant

I'm not saying that he can't use Force Speed. However, Sidious CAN"T compete with Luke's saber skills. Jacen CAN.

You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.

Proof? He was able to beat Luke when he was channeling the entire Lightside of the force and the only thing that improved from ROTS to DE is his force powers, no evidence points to Lightsaber skills increasing. The fact that he could use the same blinding speed in the past, and the fact that he thought lightsaber dueling was a stupid thing only used to humble Jedi in DE further proves he didn't bother with LS training.

Do you understand the amount of Force Power it would take to do such a thing? If put into a Force Push the person hit by the blast would be instantly pulverized. The main reason it's important however is that it shows Kyp's awsome all around Force prowless.

So I guess Bane is a god then who rules over all because of his moon moving power. 🙄

Hey guess what! Lightsabers instantly cauterize the wound! This means that Jacen won't bleed if he loses an arm. DUH!

Oh, lets see. Kyp controlled a black hole with less diffuculty than Luke. He must be a total weakling.

I take it that you haven't read the LOTF books. Luke is sleeping when he suddenly wakes up and is being attacked by a Force Phantom. He has NO IDEA that it is Jacen controlling it and thinks it's trying to kill him and is very hard pressed to defeat it. Luke was giving it his all.

It's not my fault you aren't informed. Go read the LOTF books. It's many years AFTER the DN books (*hint* Luke was described as the things that you mentioned in the DN books). [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do understand that Jacen isn't going to keep fighting at his normal strength if he loses an arm or a leg right? You make it seem as if he'll look at it say "Oh look that's funny", and continue. Give me a break.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that if he does lose an arm or something he will still be able to fight. If Sidious loses one, it's over, Jacen wins, as no Jedi besides Jacen and Tahiri have shown the ability to keep going when they've lost a limb.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No your logic is, since Kyp controlled a blackhole, he MUST be more powerful than Sidious. And as usual, your logic is incorrect.

No, that's not one I'm saying. Controlling a black hole is just one thing that Kyp has done that helps to prove that he is beyond Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I've actually read all 3 so far, and nothing says Luke was giving it his all, sorry glentract.

Is that so? So what you are saying is that Luke wasn't trying against some strange vision that is trying to kill him? BS.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I have, and Luke is only supposed to get stronger in the LOTF books.

Yeah, I know. That's why Jacen is so impressive. He is close to Luke in power.

Accept for the fact that what your debating happened in DN not LOTF (the Raynar not being able to control Jacen) And BEFORE Lukes utter ownage of Raynar and Lomi Plo.

Luke and Jacen fighting? No, that happened in Betrayal, after Luke fought Raynar.

It doesn't, and I never said that I said, it doesn't matter, I was only giving an example of Sidious high pain threshold, making Jacens "immune" to pain irrelevant

No, because if Sidious loses a hand he is going to do the same thing that happened to Mace and Luke. Scream in pain.

You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.

Wrong. This is what I said, "And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious, not his DE incarnation."

Proof? He was able to beat Luke when he was channeling the entire Lightside of the force and the only thing that improved from ROTS to DE is his force powers, no evidence points to Lightsaber skills increasing. The fact that he could use the same blinding speed in the past, and the fact that he thought lightsaber dueling was a stupid thing only used to humble Jedi in DE further proves he didn't bother with LS training.

No evidence of his lightsaber powers increasing? BS. Does he move so has in ROTS that you can't see him? NO! His lightsaber skills increased GREATLY in DE.

So I guess Bane is a god then who rules over all because of his moon moving power.

No.

1. Bane moving the moon still isn't totally proven. Plus, if he moved it 3 feet over the course of a week it's not at all impressive.

2. Controlling a black hole would require dozens of times more power then moving a moon.

"faking the thing"

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume your talking about the pain not the actual lightning part of the duel which is confirmed he was bullshitting to turn Anakin, I'm basing him not being harmed based on the fact that he was acting while being blasted, he kept pumping energy into it, and he was smiling literally two seconds later. The fact that your comparing Padawan Luke Skywalker to Sith Lord Sidious is what makes your comparison wrong.

Padawan Skywalker? Luke was a Jedi Knight by Yoda's standard by the time he got hit by lightning. Plus, if Luke's a Padawan he much be the most capable padawan ever to have been able to defeat Vader as one.

And so what if he was unharmed by reflected lightning. how is it going to save him from a lightsaber through the face?

So...you proved nothing but that your friend is a complete idiot...Tazeer =/= Force Lightning.

😆 Yeah, we're dumb. So what. My point remains. Energy coursing through your body doesn't hurt as soon as the current cuts off. That's why Sidious was fine after the lightning stopped.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord." - ROTS novel

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS.

I never said that he doesn't have Force Speed in ROTS.

So. How does that mean Kyp > Sidious.

What has Sidious done that can match it?

Regardless, you didn't say that, you didn't specify this, you posted in regards to POWER. Not TALENT.

I know what I posted in regards to, not you. I didn't specify power.

First off the only instances of a "force phantom duel" was in Betrayal and that was a Dark Side Luke, which book is this other "force phantom duel" in

Hmmm. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Care to explain?

Glentract, TPM sidious would rape jacen in saber combat, According to alot of people, he moves faster than the eye could see

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that if he does lose an arm or something he will still be able to fight. If Sidious loses one, it's over, Jacen wins, as no Jedi besides Jacen and Tahiri have shown the ability to keep going when they've lost a limb.

Dark Empire proves you wrong again, Sidious loses his hand to Luke and it only makes him madder, creating his force storm. You have no point.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

No, that's not one I'm saying. Controlling a black hole is just one thing that Kyp has done that helps to prove that he is beyond Sidious.

Having lightning so power it instakills:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045

This:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Killing a 100 of Stormtroopers like nothing.

Beating f*cking YODA.

b]Accept for the fact that what your debating happened in DN not LOTF (the Raynar not being able to control Jacen) And BEFORE Lukes utter ownage of Raynar and Lomi Plo. [/b]

Luke and Jacen fighting? No, that happened in Betrayal, after Luke fought Raynar.

(the Raynar not being able to control Jacen)

Hooked on Phonics man...

No, because if Sidious loses a hand he is going to do the same thing that happened to Mace and Luke. Scream in pain.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

A huh.

You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.

Wrong. This is what I said, "And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious, not his DE incarnation."

I'm actually baffled by your stupidity in this instance...

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

"You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS ."

H. O. P.

No evidence of his lightsaber powers increasing? BS. Does he move so has in ROTS that you can't see him? NO! His lightsaber skills increased GREATLY in DE.

Again I'm baffled...

Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS. The same "blur" that he's described by Liea as in DE.

Dude, all this was ALREADY posted...Now there is no evidence his skills have improved by the fact that he thinks Lightsabers are "Jedi" weapons only used to humble them.

2. Controlling a black hole would require dozens of times more power then moving a moon.

LOL! And you can prove that how? Prove how much energy it takes to move a SMALL black hole. Prove how much power it takes to move a planet. You can't. Let me ask you does Kyp being able to better manipulate a Black Hole make him stronger then Luke who passed out because of it? By you logic of "Cooler feats = Stronger Person" it does.

Padawan Skywalker? Luke was a Jedi Knight by Yoda's standard by the time he got hit by lightning. Plus, if Luke's a Padawan he much be the most capable padawan ever to have been able to defeat Vader as one.

Titles are regardless, I only used it to show that Luke at the time was rather weak, it would be a lie to say Jedi Master Luke. Your still comparing Luke with a few years of training to Sidious with about 40 years of dedicated dark side practice.

😆 Yeah, we're dumb. So what. My point remains. Energy coursing through your body doesn't hurt as soon as the current cuts off. That's why Sidious was fine after the lightning stopped.

Again I'm sure a police tazer is the equivalent of force lighting. And I'm sure YOU know the exact physics of FORCE LIGHTNING and how much pain someone goes through 🙄 And I'm sure the pain of you know having his face literally melted just went away 🙄

I never said that he doesn't have Force Speed in ROTS.

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

What has Sidious done that can match it?

See above.

I know what I posted in regards to, not you. I didn't specify power.

4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

Obviously your heads so far up your own ass, you don't even know what you post.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Care to explain?

The only "force phantom" duel I remember in Betrayal was between Dark Side Luke brought on by Lumiya that Jacen lost too.

In all I haven't seen this much stupidity in one post since Planet.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Dark Empire proves you wrong again, Sidious loses his hand to Luke and it only makes him madder, creating his force storm. You have no point.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

Having lightning so power it instakills:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045

This:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Killing a 100 of Stormtroopers like nothing.

Beating f*cking YODA.

(the Raynar not being able to control Jacen)

Hooked on Phonics man...

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

A huh.

[b]You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.

I'm actually baffled by your stupidity in this instance...

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

"You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS ."

H. O. P.

Again I'm baffled...

Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS. The same "blur" that he's described by Liea as in DE.

Dude, all this was ALREADY posted...Now there is no evidence his skills have improved by the fact that he thinks Lightsabers are "Jedi" weapons only used to humble them.

LOL! And you can prove that how? Prove how much energy it takes to move a SMALL black hole. Prove how much power it takes to move a planet. You can't. Let me ask you does Kyp being able to better manipulate a Black Hole make him stronger then Luke who passed out because of it? By you logic of "Cooler feats = Stronger Person" it does.

Titles are regardless, I only used it to show that Luke at the time was rather weak, it would be a lie to say Jedi Master Luke. Your still comparing Luke with a few years of training to Sidious with about 40 years of dedicated dark side practice.

Again I'm sure a police tazer is the equivalent of force lighting. And I'm sure YOU know the exact physics of FORCE LIGHTNING and how much pain someone goes through 🙄 And I'm sure the pain of you know having his face literally melted just went away 🙄

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

See above.

4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

Obviously your heads so far up your own ass, you don't even know what you post.

The only "force phantom" duel I remember in Betrayal was between Dark Side Luke brought on by Lumiya that Jacen lost too.

In all I haven't seen this much stupidity in one post since Planet. [/B]

pwned

Darth sexy, where do you get all those flaming pics? like PWNED or OWNED?

google images

Thx, i found a dog humping a cat

Dark Empire proves you wrong again, Sidious loses his hand to Luke and it only makes him madder, creating his force storm. You have no point.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

That's not ROTS Sidious. You saying that ROTS Sidious can do something because DE Sidious could do it is the same as me saying ROTJ Luke can do something because NJO Luke could do it.

Having lightning so power it instakills:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045

This:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Killing a 100 of Stormtroopers like nothing.

Beating f*cking YODA.

AGAIN, this is not ROTS Sidious killing anyone with his lightning, much less a Force user that is almost as strong as Luke.

(the Raynar not being able to control Jacen)

I was referring to Luke and Jacen fighting. Anyway, So what if Raynar being unable to cotrol Jacen happened before Luke took Raynar out?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

A huh.

By this logic since NJO Luke can control a black hole ROTJ Luke must be able to also. Retarded.

'm actually baffled by your stupidity in this instance...

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

"You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS ."

I NEVER said that he doesn't have Force Speed. I said he doesn't have UBER speed, meaning that he can't move faster than the eye can see in ROTS. Take you own advice and check out H.O.P.

Again I'm baffled...

Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS. The same "blur" that he's described by Liea as in DE.

Dude, all this was ALREADY posted...Now there is no evidence his skills have improved by the fact that he thinks Lightsabers are "Jedi" weapons only used to humble them.

How come we can see him move very easily in both of his fights in ROTS? The movie overrides the Journal of Darth Maul and any other source that you have. Evidence that he has improved in saber skills? For one he has a body that's in real good condition compared to before. Also, he moved WAY faster in DE then he ever did before.

LOL! And you can prove that how? Prove how much energy it takes to move a SMALL black hole. Prove how much power it takes to move a planet. You can't. Let me ask you does Kyp being able to better manipulate a Black Hole make him stronger then Luke who passed out because of it? By you logic of "Cooler feats = Stronger Person" it does.

Guess what, I can prove the energy required to move a black hole in relation to a planet. Shouldn't have challenged me here, math is my speciality.

The mass of the Earth is 59,742,000,000kg. Assuming Dxun has the same mass, which is likely due to gravity there being consistent with that of the Earth, to move it 3,000km we put 1g of centrifical force pushing outwards would require something like 1,756,414,800,000,000,000 newtons. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Well compare it to what it would take to move a black hole the measily distance required to suck the ship up.

Mass of black hole with a Schwarzschild radius that is 3 km equals 1/3 the mass of the Sun.
The mass of the sun is 332,946 times that of the Earth.

Now, a black hole used to protect something 1 km long would need a Schwarzschild radius of 1 km. Also, it would be positioned at least 1 km from the ship to keep it from sucking the craft it. Because of how fast the ships move to keep it a safe distance away for normal manuvering would be at least 10km. This would mean that Kyp moved the black hole AT LEAST 10km to suck the ship in.

Mass of a 1km black hole equals 110,982 times that of the Earth or 6,630,286,640,000,000kg.

To move such a massive object 10km is phenominal. It would require 6,630,286,640,000,000,000.

6,630,286,640,000,000,000 / 1,756,414,800,000,000,000 = 3.77

What Kyp did required more than 3 times the strength than what Bane did. I'd say Kyp's a lot more impressive than Bane.

Oh, and no, Kyp controlling the black hole more easily than Luke doesn't make him all around better than Luke.

Titles are regardless, I only used it to show that Luke at the time was rather weak, it would be a lie to say Jedi Master Luke. Your still comparing Luke with a few years of training to Sidious with about 40 years of dedicated dark side practice.

However, my point remains. Sidious was screaming under the pain of lightning.

Again I'm sure a police tazer is the equivalent of force lighting. And I'm sure YOU know the exact physics of FORCE LIGHTNING and how much pain someone goes through roll eyes (sarcastic) And I'm sure the pain of you know having his face literally melted just went away roll eyes (sarcastic)

1. I don't need to know the exact physics to know that once a current is cut off the pain goes away.

2. I thought you had said that it was a mask, not his face. Incinsistencies, much?

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

Uber speed =/= Force Speed

See above.

What are you referring to? There's nothing that indicates Sidious is superior to Kyp and plenty that shows Kyp is better than Sidious.

4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

Don't forget that Luke was ALSO to powerful for anyone to control. And this says overall power where? Having skill in a particular area, in this case over mental control, does not mean that anyone is saying that Jacen is more powerful than Luke.

The only "force phantom" duel I remember in Betrayal was between Dark Side Luke brought on by Lumiya that Jacen lost too.

You remember incorrectly it. What Jacen thought was a Dark Side vison of Luke was actually being controlled by the real Luke and what Luke thought was a Darkside vision was actually being controlled directly by Jacen.

@Kadesh

Omg pure ownage

Don't quote a long post and just say something stupid like this at the bottom. It wasn't ownage and it just takes up page space. What you're doing is called spamming.

Glentract, TPM sidious would rape jacen in saber combat, According to alot of people, he moves faster than the eye could see

No, that would be DE Sidious, not TPM Sidious. And Jacen moves fast enough to compete with Luke's 20 sabers, which is much faster than TPM or ROTS Sidious.

Agreed, completely; now that was pwnage.

And it is pretty clear that Sidious improves a hell of a lot in saber combat from RotS to DE.

1. He's had more time to develop his skills.
2. He's in a much better physical body.
3. He's much stronger with the force (he drained a considerable amount from Byss to make himself stronger in the force, and his mastery of the force is much greater by this point).

And we can quite clearly see his skills in the RotS movie - not very impressive at all, and in comparison to the uber descriptions of his DE incarnation? It's pretty obvious that his improvement was considerable.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin
Agreed, completely; now that was pwnage.

And it is pretty clear that Sidious improves a hell of a lot in saber combat from RotS to DE.

1. He's had more time to develop his skills.
2. He's in a much better physical body.
3. He's much stronger with the force (he drained a considerable amount from Byss to make himself stronger in the force, and his mastery of the force is much greater by this point).

And we can quite clearly see his skills in the RotS movie - not very impressive at all, and in comparison to the uber descriptions of his DE incarnation? It's pretty obvious that his improvement was considerable.

1. He doesn't train with a lightsaber anymore unless it's to humble a Jedi(as somebody else stated). He thinks its a useless weapon, so he does NOT train with it.
2. That is the ONLY reason he got better, because he's more mobile and agile with more force control.
3. So?
Read the novelization. Sidious HAS the ability to move faster than you can blink, not a great argument by you or Glentract.

1. Proof? He seemed perfectly happy to use it to battle Luke in DE, so I doubt he was completely against using such a weapon and training with it.

3. You don't see how more strength in the force and greater mastery would benefit his dueling abilities?

Watch the movie, he moves pretty slowly, slowly enough for the audience to clearly follow his every movement. The novel contradicts in this case, it's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin
1. Proof? He seemed perfectly happy to use it to battle Luke in DE, so I doubt he was completely against using such a weapon and training with it.

3. You don't see how more strength in the force and greater mastery would benefit his dueling abilities?

Watch the movie, he moves pretty slowly, slowly enough for the audience to clearly follow his every movement. The novel contradicts in this case, it's as simple as that.

1. I guess you missed the part in ROTJ where he didn't even bother carrying a lightsaber. He also called it "A jedi's weapon". Not to mention he spent 20 years studying the darkside and he had no need for a saber while Vader was killing Jedi.

3. No no, you said he IMPROVED with his saber, meaning he would have had to practice. Instead all that happened was him getting faster because of his 15 year old body, and because of his increased force abilities.
4. Watch the movie? I guess you missed the part where he slices 2 jedi masters before they could even react. Also, read the Journals of Darth Maul.

1. How do you know he never had a lightsaber on him during RotJ? Just because we don't see him with one, doesn't mean he didn't have one hiding behind his cloak. And even if he didn't have a lightsaber on him, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have practised with one to be utilised in situations where one would be beneficial.

He certainly didn't mind using that "jedi's weapon" against Luke in DE. You really think he'd use a weapon that he was out of practise with?

And Vader wasn't the only one killing jedi, Sidious killed quite a few during the dark times too apparently. And where was Vader during the period between RotJ and DE?

3. You seem to have missed my point. By saying that he improved in saber combat, I'm not talking purely in respect to technique. I'm saying that his superior mastery of the force would greatly benefit him in saber combat (reflexes, force speed, precognition etc), even moreso than before. If I said saber ability, that'd be a different story.

4. Yet this makes Agen and Saesee bad, not Sidious good. The point is, a considerable amount of speed wasn't necessary for Sidious to pull that off, as we can quite clearly follow Palpatine's every movement (in comparison to his 'moving faster than the eye can see?), and it didn't require any exceptional speed to do what he did, Saesee and Agen's reflexes at that particular point were just very lacking.

And anything inside the Journal of Darth Maul's that contradicts with what he can do in the movies is not canon.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin 1. How do you know he never had a lightsaber on him during RotJ? Just because we don't see him with one, doesn't mean he didn't have one hiding behind his cloak. And even if he didn't have a lightsaber on him, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have practised with one to be utilised in situations where one would be beneficial.

He certainly didn't mind using that "jedi's weapon" against Luke in DE. You really think he'd use a weapon that he was out of practise with?

And Vader wasn't the only one killing jedi, Sidious killed quite a few during the dark times too apparently. And where was Vader during the period between RotJ and DE?q

3. You seem to have missed my point. By saying that he improved in saber combat, I'm not talking purely in respect to technique. I'm saying that his superior mastery of the force would greatly benefit him in saber combat (reflexes, force speed, precognition etc), even moreso than before. If I said saber ability, that'd be a different story.

4. Yet this makes Agen and Saesee bad, not Sidious good. The point is, a considerable amount of speed wasn't necessary for Sidious to pull that off, as we can quite clearly follow Palpatine's every movement (in comparison to his 'moving faster than the eye can see?), and it didn't require any exceptional speed to do what he did, Saesee and Agen's reflexes at that particular point were just very lacking.

And anything inside the Journal of Darth Maul's that contradicts with what he can do in the movies is not canon. [/B]

Yea no.. The journals were written for Pre episode 1, and therefore contradict nothing. It's a c-canon source, sorry.