rasengan vs. chidori (one-thousand birds)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Thanks, I thought speed not dependent on chakra as it was connected to taijutsu which doesn't need chakra.

Originally posted by Kento
To bad Sasuke used chakra to get as fast as he did against Gaara while Lee's was pure speed. So that throws that out. And Naruto suddenly got a lot faster when getting one-tail which upped his chakra, and Sasuke did also when going cursed seal.

And there is no difference between Naruto and his Shadow Clones so no sharingan can't tell the difference. Byakugan > Sharingan when it comes to things like that anyway. And yea Sasuke was using his Sharingan when he hit the Itachi clone.

lol. both the things u mentioned have nothing to do with NORMAL chakra. against gaara, in the tournament, sasuke used no chakra to get fast. that was just his training with kakashi. in his fight against half transformed shukaku/gaara, he used his CURSED SEAL, which amps all his stats up INCLUSING his chakra. there is a difference. the curse seal doesnt just affect his chakra, but also his physique. that is how he is faster due to it. with naruto, normal laws dont apply because the kyuubi chakra and tails are unique. the kyuubi is a sealed bijuu and as such its chakra has properties no normal chakra does.

and you are absolutely wrong about naruto and his shadow clones. when they fought on top of the roof, sasuke moved in for the real naruto and whispered in his ear that his shaaringan let him see the original at first glance, and that he was just playing with naruto's clones. so no, kage bunshin is useless against shaaringan.

and well, sasuke using shaaringan to hit the "supposed" clone it true. so it may not have been a clone after all. since shaaringan can see clones. also remember that in the chuunin test, in the forest, sasuke was the one who pointed out that the three masked guys were using completely fake copy clones while the real ones were under ground.

shaaringan > byaakugen

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol. both the things u mentioned have nothing to do with NORMAL chakra. against gaara, in the tournament, sasuke used no chakra to get fast. that was just his training with kakashi. in his fight against half transformed shukaku/gaara, he used his CURSED SEAL, which amps all his stats up INCLUSING his chakra. there is a difference. the curse seal doesnt just affect his chakra, but also his physique. that is how he is faster due to it. with naruto, normal laws dont apply because the kyuubi chakra and tails are unique. the kyuubi is a sealed bijuu and as such its chakra has properties no normal chakra does.

and you are absolutely wrong about naruto and his shadow clones. when they fought on top of the roof, sasuke moved in for the real naruto and whispered in his ear that his shaaringan let him see the original at first glance, and that he was just playing with naruto's clones. so no, kage bunshin is useless against shaaringan.

and well, sasuke using shaaringan to hit the "supposed" clone it true. so it may not have been a clone after all. since shaaringan can see clones. also remember that in the chuunin test, in the forest, sasuke was the one who pointed out that the three masked guys were using completely fake copy clones while the real ones were under ground.

shaaringan > byaakugen

To bad that didn't happen in the manga and Sasuke used fire style to get rid of all the clones and then Naruto was there using rasengan. Kage Bunshin splits chakra up between the person there is nothing to let the Sharingan see through it because it's not an illusion or anything.

To bad the guys used clones not shadow clones. Those were fake illusions. There is a big, big difference between shadow clone jutsu and normal clone jutsu. And Byakugan > Sharingan for seeing things like fake clones and all that.

bull. circular logic. i already explained how the seal amps you STRENGTH/SPEED/REACTION/ENDURANCE, "along" with your chakra. the chakra isnt the one amping your physical traits.

it didnt happen in the manga? are u sure? also, the fire thing happened in both anime and manga and sasuke did it to get rid of all the clonse as reguardless of real or not, they were all ATTACKING him.
also, there are many other blatant examples od shaaringan seeing clones. take what happened when hebi was running away from naruto's team. a naruto clone approached hebi and without even thinking, sasuke gave it a deadly blow through the chest and continued on without stopping, saying beforehand that "dont worry its a clone" or sumthing like that.

also, shaaringan can see through any nijutsu, genjutsu or taijutsu, that is why it understands and knows the exact workings of kage bunshin too. and can tell which one is the real clone. byaakugen cudnt tell the difference between kagebushin.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
bull. circular logic. i already explained how the seal amps you STRENGTH/SPEED/REACTION/ENDURANCE, "along" with your chakra. the chakra isnt the one amping your physical traits.

it didnt happen in the manga? are u sure? also, the fire thing happened in both anime and manga and sasuke did it to get rid of all the clonse as reguardless of real or not, they were all ATTACKING him.
also, there are many other blatant examples od shaaringan seeing clones. take what happened when hebi was running away from naruto's team. a naruto clone approached hebi and without even thinking, sasuke gave it a deadly blow through the chest and continued on without stopping, saying beforehand that "dont worry its a clone" or sumthing like that.

also, shaaringan can see through any nijutsu, genjutsu or taijutsu, that is why it understands and knows the exact workings of kage bunshin too. and can tell which one is the real clone. byaakugen cudnt tell the difference between kagebushin.

I checked the manga it didn't happen. Sasuke was fighting the clones and he used fire style against them as Naruto did his Uzumaki Barrage and Naruto and another clone are fine as it disappates and are forming Rasengan. Just because he got rid of them all means nothing. Kimimaro and Kidomaru or whatever the spider guy was have gotten rid of all the clones doesn't mean they can see whats real or not. As for Sasuke using Chidori when he was with hebi..He didn't even have sharingan on so that doesn't show him seeing through a shadow clone. Sasuke has never seen through Shadow Clones. Shadow Clones aren't fake so they're not able to be seen through. And it was Suigetsu or whatever that said shadow clone.

To bad Sharingan has never been shown to tell which Shadow Clone is real and if Byakugan can't there is no reason to assume the sharingan can either when there is no proof. And Sharingan can't see through ninjutsu...since those are attacks. They can copy but there is nothing to see through. Genjutsu sure but Shadow Clones are genjutsu at all. Taijutsu they can see somebody moving faster than they can but that really is pointless if they can't react. Byakugan can see through genjutsu also.

Originally posted by Kento
And Sasuke couldn't use that speed normally without getting tired extremely fast either. And it still doesn't deny the fact that he got faster getting more chakra and that chakra can amp up the speed as well as strength so it can't be proven either way so it's pointless to debate.

To bad that didn't happen in the manga and Sasuke used fire style to get rid of all the clones and then Naruto was there using rasengan. Kage Bunshin splits chakra up between the person there is nothing to let the Sharingan see through it because it's not an illusion or anything.

To bad the guys used clones not shadow clones. Those were fake illusions. There is a big, big difference between shadow clone jutsu and normal clone jutsu. And Byakugan > Sharingan for seeing things like fake clones and all that.

That's all Shadow clones seem to be, masses of chakra molded into the likeness of the user.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That's all Shadow clones seem to be, masses of chakra molded into the likeness of the user.

Originally posted by Stoner420
i think that the chidori could and would beat the rasengan because the chidori is a level 5 attack and rasengan is a level 4.

Originally posted by Kento
And clones aren't anything but illusions that can be told apart with sharingan and byakugan. Byakugan couldn't tell the difference between Naruto's shadow clones so there is no reason to think sharingan can when it's not been proven. Sharigan isn't Byakugan's superior when it comes to things like that.

Originally posted by Kento
And can you prove that it has nothing to do with their chakra amping up? Chouji got faster and stronger by amping his chakra. Naruto used Kyuubi's chakra and got faster and stronger. Cursed Seal amps the chakra the same way Chouji's pills and Kyuubi Chakra do. Kiba got stronger using the pills also.

I checked the manga it didn't happen. Sasuke was fighting the clones and he used fire style against them as Naruto did his Uzumaki Barrage and Naruto and another clone are fine as it disappates and are forming Rasengan. Just because he got rid of them all means nothing. Kimimaro and Kidomaru or whatever the spider guy was have gotten rid of all the clones doesn't mean they can see whats real or not. As for Sasuke using Chidori when he was with hebi..He didn't even have sharingan on so that doesn't show him seeing through a shadow clone. Sasuke has never seen through Shadow Clones. Shadow Clones aren't fake so they're not able to be seen through. And it was Suigetsu or whatever that said shadow clone.

To bad Sharingan has never been shown to tell which Shadow Clone is real and if Byakugan can't there is no reason to assume the sharingan can either when there is no proof. And Sharingan can't see through ninjutsu...since those are attacks. They can copy but there is nothing to see through. Genjutsu sure but Shadow Clones are genjutsu at all. Taijutsu they can see somebody moving faster than they can but that really is pointless if they can't react. Byakugan can see through genjutsu also.

you continue to come up with unnatural examples. the red pill was the only one with that affect. and through chouji's own MOUTH, he claimed that he was 100 times stronger than before. that means EVERYTHING "including" chakra. chakra is a result of exerting affort and stamina, not the other way around. this was explained in the diagram thingies in naruto a long time ago. kyuubi and curse seal i have already explained. so u have no argument there.

what i am talking about hapened before an of the things you described though. re read the older pages/chapter and get back to me, its so friggin old that i cant remember. it was definately there in the anime, and i dont have the pre shippuden chapters in my pc right now. kidomaru and kimimary got rid of ALL the shadow clones, there is a difference. sasuke KNOWS which is a clone. and u and i well know that he wouldnt just unceremoniusly use chidori against the real naruto to get him out of the way. even if suigetsu said it, it just proves that sasuke knew it wasnt the real naruto. also, the clone{if it was one} that itachi was using wasnt a kagebunshin either. kage bunshins disappear in a puff of smoke with even small hits. they dont stand around after being hurt, comment on the situation and disappear in a flurry of raven black wings. and remember, those feathers actually STAY there physically without disappearing.
sasuke's father said that shaaringan can see through nijutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu. seeing through doesnt have to be physically, it means analysing and seeing how the chakra etc is being used technically, while byaakugen only offers simple sight and no insight.

and no, there isnt much reason to beleive that byaajugen can yet see through all genjutsu. remember, neiji was unable to see inside the container housing sasuke with the sound 4 with his byaakugen. plus u give byaakugen too much credit. most of what byaakugen users do is using their own DEVELOPED skill. jyuuken doesnt come naturally through byaakugen. it is developed just as any normal person would. while shaaringan has shown so many diverse and powerful affects that i cud write pages on it{i have in the past infact}.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
you continue to come up with unnatural examples. the red pill was the only one with that affect. and through chouji's own MOUTH, he claimed that he was 100 times stronger than before. that means EVERYTHING "including" chakra. chakra is a result of exerting affort and stamina, not the other way around. this was explained in the diagram thingies in naruto a long time ago. kyuubi and curse seal i have already explained. so u have no argument there.

what i am talking about hapened before an of the things you described though. re read the older pages/chapter and get back to me, its so friggin old that i cant remember. it was definately there in the anime, and i dont have the pre shippuden chapters in my pc right now. kidomaru and kimimary got rid of ALL the shadow clones, there is a difference. sasuke KNOWS which is a clone. and u and i well know that he wouldnt just unceremoniusly use chidori against the real naruto to get him out of the way. even if suigetsu said it, it just proves that sasuke knew it wasnt the real naruto. also, the clone{if it was one} that itachi was using wasnt a kagebunshin either. kage bunshins disappear in a puff of smoke with even small hits. they dont stand around after being hurt, comment on the situation and disappear in a flurry of raven black wings. and remember, those feathers actually STAY there physically without disappearing.
sasuke's father said that shaaringan can see through nijutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu. seeing through doesnt have to be physically, it means analysing and seeing how the chakra etc is being used technically, while byaakugen only offers simple sight and no insight.

and no, there isnt much reason to beleive that byaajugen can yet see through all genjutsu. remember, neiji was unable to see inside the container housing sasuke with the sound 4 with his byaakugen. plus u give byaakugen too much credit. most of what byaakugen users do is using their own DEVELOPED skill. jyuuken doesnt come naturally through byaakugen. it is developed just as any normal person would. while shaaringan has shown so many diverse and powerful affects that i cud write pages on it{i have in the past infact}.

The whole Naruto vs Sasuke fight wasn't that long on the roof in the manga. They attack each other briefly, Naruto spams clones, Sasuke kicks some clones, Naruto tries to do Uzumaki Barrage, Sasuke firestyles, fire disappears and Naruto is unhurt forming Rasengan with a clone. There isn't a difference..Kimimaro, Kidomaru, and Sasuke all got rid of the shadow clones the same way. By fighting them all and in the manga Sasuke says nothing about being able to see them. Also Sasuke didn't use his Sharingan when he hit Naruto when he was team Hebi so he couldn't have seen through it then either. He could have known since it's easy to guess what Naruto would do sure but he didn't use his sharingan to tell if it was or not. Also not all Shadow Clones disappear in a puff of smoke after being hit. Naruto's shadow clones can last a while sometimes and Sarutobi's shadow clones were hit by both First and Second Hokage but they held up just fine. Byakugan offers insight. Neiji knew exactly what Hinata was thinking by the way she moved. Byakugan was even said to be Sharingan's superior when it comes to that stuff. Sharingan can see through illusions but so can Byakugan and it may also copy techniques but it isn't superior in anything else.

Just because Byakugan couldn't see all the way through a barrel with a spell on it it's weak? That wasn't even genjutsu at all anyways so what does that have to do with it not being able to see through a genjutsu? The only thing the sharingan has shown to exceed the byakugan in is copying techniques and being able to induce genjutsu along with the amaterasu and Kakashi's technique. And even with those being known to people except the Mangekyou sharingan techniques the Byakugan is still considered the superior eye technique. The sharingan can't copy what the byakugan user can do and in a fight the sharingan relies on chakra and as soon and the byakugan gets a hit if they are as skilled as Neji then the sharingan is gone along with the rest of the chakra. Uchiha clan has never been said to be the Hyuuga's superiors at all. Using a lot more jutsus doesn't make something stronger.

That still doesn't disprove Sasuke doesn't use chakra to amp his speed. But like I said this part is pointless to debate because it's never been said either way so how about we just drop this part.

so the only evidence you have is negetive evidence. fail. there is no evidence to support your assumption but there is ample evidence to support mine with the examples of the manga chibi/drawing explanations of chakra coming with exerting physical stamina and guy/lee using higher speeds with strength alone etc etc.

The whole Naruto vs Sasuke fight wasn't that long on the roof in the manga. They attack each other briefly, Naruto spams clones, Sasuke kicks some clones, Naruto tries to do Uzumaki Barrage, Sasuke firestyles, fire disappears and Naruto is unhurt forming Rasengan with a clone. There isn't a difference..Kimimaro, Kidomaru, and Sasuke all got rid of the shadow clones the same way. By fighting them all and in the manga Sasuke says nothing about being able to see them. Also Sasuke didn't use his Sharingan when he hit Naruto when he was team Hebi so he couldn't have seen through it then either. He could have known since it's easy to guess what Naruto would do sure but he didn't use his sharingan to tell if it was or not. Also not all Shadow Clones disappear in a puff of smoke after being hit. Naruto's shadow clones can last a while sometimes and Sarutobi's shadow clones were hit by both First and Second Hokage but they held up just fine. Byakugan offers insight. Neiji knew exactly what Hinata was thinking by the way she moved. Byakugan was even said to be Sharingan's superior when it comes to that stuff. Sharingan can see through illusions but so can Byakugan and it may also copy techniques but it isn't superior in anything else.

so ur positive sasuke said no such thing to naruto? ur also positive that sausk didnt use the shaaringan? did sarutobi use "shadow clones?", and that insance is different as the shinigami was working on those clones.

neiji wasnt using the BYAAKUGEN to read what hinata was thinking/ he said himself that he was reading body language "you have your arms in front of you, that means you want to create a barrier between me n you, your eyes moved to the lower left corner of ur eye, that means you are remembering a past event...." etc etc. its like a good psychologist, that was neiji's skill not BYAAKUGEN! byaakugen is only shaaringan's superior when it comes to insight. and only visual insight, in that it can zoom in on targets further, has 360 degrees field of view and can see smaller things like the tenkutsu while the shaaringan of kakashi's cud only see the chakra circulatory system. ill give u a list of byaakugen vs shaaringan things later{unless u wanna dig up my old one}

Just because Byakugan couldn't see all the way through a barrel with a spell on it it's weak? That wasn't even genjutsu at all anyways so what does that have to do with it not being able to see through a genjutsu? The only thing the sharingan has shown to exceed the byakugan in is copying techniques and being able to induce genjutsu along with the amaterasu and Kakashi's technique. And even with those being known to people except the Mangekyou sharingan techniques the Byakugan is still considered the superior eye technique. The sharingan can't copy what the byakugan user can do and in a fight the sharingan relies on chakra and as soon and the byakugan gets a hit if they are as skilled as Neji then the sharingan is gone along with the rest of the chakra. Uchiha clan has never been said to be the Hyuuga's superiors at all. Using a lot more jutsus doesn't make something stronger.

no, there was a binding ninjutsu and byaakugen failed to see through it. byaakugen is never shown to be able to see through genjutsu so u cant assume anything. shaaringan has. byaakugen is never considered the superior eye technique. that has always been the shaaringan, ur slow if u havent caught on to that. even the kyuubi is afraid of the accursed shaaringan. uchiha were also a royal family in konoha. byaakugen is only older thats all.

byaakugen powers: 360 degree vision, ability to zoom in on faraway objects, ability to see very small things like tenkutsu, ability to see through physical boundries, ability to see the chakra circulatory system in shinobi

shaaringan : ability of insight as far as nijutsu genjutsu and taijutsu go, ability of insight of seeing farway things and of seeing very small things, ability to see through solid objects, ability to see chakra, ability to see through genjustus, ability to cast genjutsu simply by looking or pointing at another person who isnt even looking, ability to counter genjutsu by another genjutsu, abilility to predict the flow of chakra, ability to hypnotise an opponent, ability to copy and nijutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu technique unless it is kekai genkai or contract summoning, ability to see the future and predict the movement of another shinobi, ability to boost physical characteristics{the first time sasuke's three magatama shaaringan surfaced, he commented on how it felt like his body had been taken over by the cursed seal}, ability to forcibly self destroy ninjutsu{against sai's ink constructs}, ability to telepathically control another person or creature by genjutsu{manda} and even forcibly dsummon them, ability to enter sum1's soul{sasuke vs naruto and sasuke vs urochimaru} , ability to destroy dimensions and take over sum1 else's body as well as posess their special abilities{against uro, his new body and his healing ability}, ability to supress bijuu as powerful as the kyuubi{in naruto's soul even the kyuubi commented on the accursed power of the shaaringan}, ability to portrude mystic swords out of urself{not chidori, but the stuff itachi used to cut uro's hands and which sasuke repeated when it made uro remenescience}, itachi was also able to telekenetically blow other uchihas and their shurikens away when he slaughtered them without even moving.

magekyo shaaringan basically takes all these to a much higher level, also allows acces to special jutsu, like tsukiyomi which is an undispellable genjutsu and its affects are self explanatory, amaterasu is a fire jutsu with flames hotter than the sun and cursed and burn for a week. kakashi's space warp jutsu warps space itself to attack long range and destroy nearly everything. also, shaaringan's true power hanst been revealed yet as has its ultimate dark purpose that itachi talked about hidden under the tatami mat in the uchia's commentary scroll which only sasuke and itachi have read thus far. plus, uchiha madara seemed to have summoned the kyuubu and also seems to be the big guy whose power is ultimate in naruto{ofcourse, rikoudo san/kuubi/pain havent completely shown their ability either}. so we can bet that shaaringan is far superior to sumthing like the byaakugen. ofcourse i also know im prolly missing a lot of other feats of shaaringan.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
so the only evidence you have is negetive evidence. fail. there is no evidence to support your assumption but there is ample evidence to support mine with the examples of the manga chibi/drawing explanations of chakra coming with exerting physical stamina and guy/lee using higher speeds with strength alone etc etc.

so ur positive sasuke said no such thing to naruto? ur also positive that sausk didnt use the shaaringan? did sarutobi use "shadow clones?", and that insance is different as the shinigami was working on those clones.

neiji wasnt using the BYAAKUGEN to read what hinata was thinking/ he said himself that he was reading body language "you have your arms in front of you, that means you want to create a barrier between me n you, your eyes moved to the lower left corner of ur eye, that means you are remembering a past event...." etc etc. its like a good psychologist, that was neiji's skill not BYAAKUGEN! byaakugen is only shaaringan's superior when it comes to insight. and only visual insight, in that it can zoom in on targets further, has 360 degrees field of view and can see smaller things like the tenkutsu while the shaaringan of kakashi's cud only see the chakra circulatory system. ill give u a list of byaakugen vs shaaringan things later{unless u wanna dig up my old one}

no, there was a binding ninjutsu and byaakugen failed to see through it. byaakugen is never shown to be able to see through genjutsu so u cant assume anything. shaaringan has. byaakugen is never considered the superior eye technique. that has always been the shaaringan, ur slow if u havent caught on to that. even the kyuubi is afraid of the accursed shaaringan. uchiha were also a royal family in konoha. byaakugen is only older thats all.

byaakugen powers: 360 degree vision, ability to zoom in on faraway objects, ability to see very small things like tenkutsu, ability to see through physical boundries, ability to see the chakra circulatory system in shinobi

shaaringan : ability of insight as far as nijutsu genjutsu and taijutsu go, ability of insight of seeing farway things and of seeing very small things, ability to see through solid objects, ability to see chakra, ability to see through genjustus, ability to cast genjutsu simply by looking or pointing at another person who isnt even looking, ability to counter genjutsu by another genjutsu, abilility to predict the flow of chakra, ability to hypnotise an opponent, ability to copy and nijutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu technique unless it is kekai genkai or contract summoning, ability to see the future and predict the movement of another shinobi, ability to boost physical characteristics{the first time sasuke's three magatama shaaringan surfaced, he commented on how it felt like his body had been taken over by the cursed seal}, ability to forcibly self destroy ninjutsu{against sai's ink constructs}, ability to telepathically control another person or creature by genjutsu{manda} and even forcibly dsummon them, ability to enter sum1's soul{sasuke vs naruto and sasuke vs urochimaru} , ability to destroy dimensions and take over sum1 else's body as well as posess their special abilities{against uro, his new body and his healing ability}, ability to supress bijuu as powerful as the kyuubi{in naruto's soul even the kyuubi commented on the accursed power of the shaaringan}, ability to portrude mystic swords out of urself{not chidori, but the stuff itachi used to cut uro's hands and which sasuke repeated when it made uro remenescience}, itachi was also able to telekenetically blow other uchihas and their shurikens away when he slaughtered them without even moving.

magekyo shaaringan basically takes all these to a much higher level, also allows acces to special jutsu, like tsukiyomi which is an undispellable genjutsu and its affects are self explanatory, amaterasu is a fire jutsu with flames hotter than the sun and cursed and burn for a week. kakashi's space warp jutsu warps space itself to attack long range and destroy nearly everything. also, shaaringan's true power hanst been revealed yet as has its ultimate dark purpose that itachi talked about hidden under the tatami mat in the uchia's commentary scroll which only sasuke and itachi have read thus far. plus, uchiha madara seemed to have summoned the kyuubu and also seems to be the big guy whose power is ultimate in naruto{ofcourse, rikoudo san/kuubi/pain havent completely shown their ability either}. so we can bet that shaaringan is far superior to sumthing like the byaakugen. ofcourse i also know im prolly missing a lot of other feats of shaaringan.

Except Neji was using the Byakugan when he was doing that to Hinata. It wasn't a genjutsu though it was ninjutsu. It wasn't an illusion which are what Genjutsu's are. Byakugan see the chakra in something..somebody uses a genjutsu there would be no chakra so they wouldn't be fooled at all. Neji could have done the exact same thing Sasuke did against the masked guys just as easily. Never once was the sharingan stated to be superior to the byakugan and Kakashi even states that when it comes to insight Byakugan is superior to the sharingan and that's when Neji does his thing with Hinata. Hyuuga are also said the be the strongest clan not the Uchiha.

Sharingan can't cast jutsu by pointing a finger at them, Byakugan also has the ability of insight, sharingan can't see the future, Itachi never telekinetically did anything to any shuriken thrown at him, and it can't supress the demons. Just because something is more accursed than you're own doesn't mean anything. And you think the Sharingan is superior to the Rinnengan even though Jiraiya has already said Rinnengan is the superior out of all of them. Also just becase something can cast more jutsu doesn't make it more powerful. Especially since a good Byakugan user can shut off the Sharingan's power with a couple of touches making it totally useless and Byakugan can see through illusions so genjutsu would be pointless. Casting Ninjutsu and Genjutsu are the only things sharingan can do better but that doesn't make it superior.

re read my post again. all that is answered. itachi did telekenetically blow uchihas away. and no your wrong. the uchiha clan have been consistantly called the strongest clan in konohakagura. it was only AFTER their demise that the hyuuga clan became the strongest. most of what the hyuuga's do is not a direct result of the byaakugen but their own mastery of techniques with which to create a fighting style which takes ADVANTAGE of the byaakugen. their is a difference, jyuuken is completely independant of the byaakugen as an ability. also, all of ur argument is assumption on the part of the byaakugen. but what i have stated about shaaringan is verifyable fact.

itachi clone cast a high level genjustsu on naruto just by pointing at him when he wasnt looking{and no, u can see int he manga that he is not reflecting his eyes on his ring}. even when naruto was trying to supress his chakra to counter it, but he cudnt. also, tsukiyomi works on the soul and even kakashi with the shaaringan cudnt counter it. no byakugen user can simply counter shaaringan genjutsu{if at all they can counter normal genjutsu}.

also, sasuke supressed the kyuubi because of his shaaringa. there is also the fact that madara summoned the kyuubi who was teh originater of the uchiwa.

Itachi never telekinetically blew away any shuriken. Itachi was called the strongest in the village not the Uchiha and yea the Uchiha. Most of the Uchiha power is dependent on the Sharingan ability also. The only reason Uchiha are strong are because of the sharingan while the only thing Byakugan really gives the Hyuuga in their fighting is three-hundred-and sixty degree vision. Their fighting style unless they want to shut off the chakra isn't even needed since Tsunade and any medical ninja can attack the same thing. Genjutsu that are cast aren't made up of chakra. They are illusions and byakugan would see where the chakra is knowing where the real user is.

It wasn't even a clone really just something using his chakra, and it wasn't the sharingan or finger it was the ring. Also not every sharingan user can use tsukiyomi or amaterasu while all of the skilled Hyuuga can shut off the chakra flowing. Kakashi nor Sasuke have anything close to tsukiyomi.

Sasuke supressed a tiny bit of Kyuubi chakra that wasn't even going to be coming out anyway and just because Madara does something doesn't mean anything. Tsunade can't control the bijuu like her grandfather could. Plus we've all seen how many different effects that sharingan has. Kakashi can't use the same moves as Itachi and Sasuke doesn't really even use genjutsu when it comes to his sharingan.

Itachi never telekinetically blew away any shuriken. Itachi was called the strongest in the village not the Uchiha and yea the Uchiha. Most of the Uchiha power is dependent on the Sharingan ability also. The only reason Uchiha are strong are because of the sharingan while the only thing Byakugan really gives the Hyuuga in their fighting is three-hundred-and sixty degree vision. Their fighting style unless they want to shut off the chakra isn't even needed since Tsunade and any medical ninja can attack the same thing. Genjutsu that are cast aren't made up of chakra. They are illusions and byakugan would see where the chakra is knowing where the real user is.

yes he did. he just stood there while people and shuriken were thrown at him. and both were blown away. itachi was called the most gifted of the uchiah but no1 cud comprehend his real power as he had never revealed it before he slaughtered every1. the uchihas were the strongest in konoha. jyuuken is useless without byaakugen as it relies on being able to see the chakra circulatory system to attack it. also to seal of tenketsu, byaakugen is requiored to see them first. tsunade and medical ninja can not do the same thing. byaakugen cant counter genjuts{or hasnt shown to} because genjutsu work on either the senses, the chakra circulatory system or the soul. none of which the byaakugen can really counter. it is one of the shaaringan's power to counter and seee through genjutsu just likt its one of its power to copy techniques. it just IS there like a deus ex.

It wasn't even a clone really just something using his chakra, and it wasn't the sharingan or finger it was the ring. Also not every sharingan user can use tsukiyomi or amaterasu while all of the skilled Hyuuga can shut off the chakra flowing. Kakashi nor Sasuke have anything close to tsukiyomi.

it wasnt the ring. i challenge u to produce evidence for it. there is just a drawing of his winger{which inevitably shows his ring} but no reflection is shown, neither is it implied that it was the ring. all he says that"for me, even a finger is enough". ur wrong here. i never claimed that all shaaringan user can use mangekyo techniques. they have a wide array of others which they CAN use. on the other hand, only the best in the hyuuga can seal off tenketsu, same with using kiten etc. neiji is the genius of the hyuuga. only the head family knows those techniques. and only the best can use em. hinata can not, neither can hanabi even with expert tutalage.

Sasuke supressed a tiny bit of Kyuubi chakra that wasn't even going to be coming out anyway and just because Madara does something doesn't mean anything. Tsunade can't control the bijuu like her grandfather could. Plus we've all seen how many different effects that sharingan has. Kakashi can't use the same moves as Itachi and Sasuke doesn't really even use genjutsu when it comes to his sharingan.

not really, the kyuubi ws about to come out whole. the chakra had never gotten out of its prison even when the 4 tails naruto came about. and sasuke supressed it with his hand. just because madara does sumthing does mean sumthing since jiraya said that there was only one person POWERFUL enough to summon a beast like the kyuubi.

sasuke has used genjutsu against sai so much so that even sai was scared. he also used it against diedara.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes he did. he just stood there while people and shuriken were thrown at him. and both were blown away. itachi was called the most gifted of the uchiah but no1 cud comprehend his real power as he had never revealed it before he slaughtered every1. the uchihas were the strongest in konoha. jyuuken is useless without byaakugen as it relies on being able to see the chakra circulatory system to attack it. also to seal of tenketsu, byaakugen is requiored to see them first. tsunade and medical ninja can not do the same thing. byaakugen cant counter genjuts{or hasnt shown to} because genjutsu work on either the senses, the chakra circulatory system or the soul. none of which the byaakugen can really counter. it is one of the shaaringan's power to counter and seee through genjutsu just likt its one of its power to copy techniques. it just IS there like a deus ex.

it wasnt the ring. i challenge u to produce evidence for it. there is just a drawing of his winger{which inevitably shows his ring} but no reflection is shown, neither is it implied that it was the ring. all he says that"for me, even a finger is enough". ur wrong here. i never claimed that all shaaringan user can use mangekyo techniques. they have a wide array of others which they CAN use. on the other hand, only the best in the hyuuga can seal off tenketsu, same with using kiten etc. neiji is the genius of the hyuuga. only the head family knows those techniques. and only the best can use em. hinata can not, neither can hanabi even with expert tutalage.

not really, the kyuubi ws about to come out whole. the chakra had never gotten out of its prison even when the 4 tails naruto came about. and sasuke supressed it with his hand. just because madara does sumthing does mean sumthing since jiraya said that there was only one person POWERFUL enough to summon a beast like the kyuubi.

sasuke has used genjutsu against sai so much so that even sai was scared. he also used it against diedara.

Prove that Itachi can do that though. Even with Mangekyo Sharingan the effects vary look at Kakashi and Itachi. And being able to cast more jutsu means very little since that doesn't mean you'll win. Nobody knows what Hanabi can do but she's a genius and even more skilled than Hinata but saying what she can or can't do is just pointless since she never even fought. Neji is a genius but he's far from the strongest of his clan and kaiten you don't need byakugan unless the person is far away. If you're surrounded by a bunch of guy Kaiten will work with or without byakugan. The only thing they need Byakugan for is the chakra points to shut it off in their fighting style.

Except Kyuubi's chakra has come out of the seal plenty of times to surround Naruto it was just in the form of Kyuubi's head this time while it was talking to him. And it still doesn't matter because Kyuubi wasn't going to get out thats why he was trying to get naruto to let him out. And Kyuubi happens a lot faster than that when Naruto isn't going against it. Sasuke wouldn't have time to do that as Naruto turned Kyuubi. And there may have been something else added to the fact Madara could summon Kyuubi just like the First can control them. Doesn't have anything to do with Sasuke or Itachi or the Uchiha.

I said Sasuke doesn't really use genjutsu. And it's not like it was anything special that anybody couldn't have broken out of. It wasn't close to being anything more than an average genjutsu either.

When does it show this in the anime? And they don't show that in the manga. Kabuto attacked the chakra strings around Naruto's heart which is exactly what a Byakugan user does. You don't need the Byakugan to send chakra into an opponent and hurt the vital organs. To see the points that shut off chakra and to attack them you do but not the way Hinata fights. The Byakugan can see chakra in something and there is no reason to think that they can't see through genjutsu. Able to stop or counter something like Tsukiyomi is completely different but they could see that it's not real.

in sasuke's flashbacks, i think both times. first being when itachi and kisame catch him and naruto with jiraya in the mote. second when sasuke is fighting naruto. its definately shown. when kakashi was explaining the byaakugen{BEFORE neijji started hitting hinata's tenkutsu in the chuunin exam or before even tenkutsu were hinted at}, a question was asked about how anybody cud hit the chakra circulatory system as no1 cud see it. and kakashi said that the byaakugen cud see it.

as you said yourself, genjutsu isnt chakra. so theres no reaosn to assume that byaakugen can see through it as it has no ways of stopping the three ways in which genjutsu are known to work.

Prove that Itachi can do that though. Even with Mangekyo Sharingan the effects vary look at Kakashi and Itachi. And being able to cast more jutsu means very little since that doesn't mean you'll win. Nobody knows what Hanabi can do but she's a genius and even more skilled than Hinata but saying what she can or can't do is just pointless since she never even fought. Neji is a genius but he's far from the strongest of his clan and kaiten you don't need byakugan unless the person is far away. If you're surrounded by a bunch of guy Kaiten will work with or without byakugan. The only thing they need Byakugan for is the chakra points to shut it off in their fighting style.

i already did. there was no image on the ring. naruto was stopping his chakra flow. and itachi even self proclaimed that all he needed was a finger and not his eyes when naruto was desperately trying not to look at him. there.
hanabi isnt a genius on par with neiji. and when neiji used the 64 strikes of heaven, hanabi's dad said "so a branch family member will surpass a head family member" strong indication that hanabi cudnt do it. i never said kaiten needed byaakugen.

Except Kyuubi's chakra has come out of the seal plenty of times to surround Naruto it was just in the form of Kyuubi's head this time while it was talking to him. And it still doesn't matter because Kyuubi wasn't going to get out thats why he was trying to get naruto to let him out. And Kyuubi happens a lot faster than that when Naruto isn't going against it. Sasuke wouldn't have time to do that as Naruto turned Kyuubi. And there may have been something else added to the fact Madara could summon Kyuubi just like the First can control them. Doesn't have anything to do with Sasuke or Itachi or the Uchiha.

I said Sasuke doesn't really use genjutsu. And it's not like it was anything special that anybody couldn't have broken out of. It wasn't close to being anything more than an average genjutsu either.

true. but the KYUUBI has never come out. this time the KYUUBI'S HEAD was out. i challenge u to give me one such instance before where it happened inside naruto's soul. u cant find one i bet. the kyuubi didnt need naruto's permission before when he turned him into 4 tails etc and when naruot CUDNT keep him in in emoptional places. thats why inaruto was tehre in the first place, due the his emotional state after seeing sasuke. and the kyuubi was making him feal despair without it. if sasuke hadnt come in part of it might have been released. and if u remember, the kyuubi said that sasuke's chakra was LIKE that accursed uchiah madara. so madar does have sumthing to do with sasuke, not to mention they have similar hairstyles.

it WAS sumthing special. sai was SCARED. sai who was supposed to be top among his age and had no emotions. and shaaringan genjutsu are superior to normal genjutsu. generally.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
in sasuke's flashbacks, i think both times. first being when itachi and kisame catch him and naruto with jiraya in the mote. second when sasuke is fighting naruto. its definately shown. when kakashi was explaining the byaakugen{BEFORE neijji started hitting hinata's tenkutsu in the chuunin exam or before even tenkutsu were hinted at}, a question was asked about how anybody cud hit the chakra circulatory system as no1 cud see it. and kakashi said that the byaakugen cud see it.

as you said yourself, genjutsu isnt chakra. so theres no reaosn to assume that byaakugen can see through it as it has no ways of stopping the three ways in which genjutsu are known to work.

i already did. there was no image on the ring. naruto was stopping his chakra flow. and itachi even self proclaimed that all he needed was a finger and not his eyes when naruto was desperately trying not to look at him. there.
hanabi isnt a genius on par with neiji. and when neiji used the 64 strikes of heaven, hanabi's dad said "so a branch family member will surpass a head family member" strong indication that hanabi cudnt do it. i never said kaiten needed byaakugen.

true. but the KYUUBI has never come out. this time the KYUUBI'S HEAD was out. i challenge u to give me one such instance before where it happened inside naruto's soul. u cant find one i bet. the kyuubi didnt need naruto's permission before when he turned him into 4 tails etc and when naruot CUDNT keep him in in emoptional places. thats why inaruto was tehre in the first place, due the his emotional state after seeing sasuke. and the kyuubi was making him feal despair without it. if sasuke hadnt come in part of it might have been released. and if u remember, the kyuubi said that sasuke's chakra was LIKE that accursed uchiah madara. so madar does have sumthing to do with sasuke, not to mention they have similar hairstyles.

it WAS sumthing special. sai was SCARED. sai who was supposed to be top among his age and had no emotions. and shaaringan genjutsu are superior to normal genjutsu. generally.

Genjutsu are just illusions. They won't have any chakra. The Byakugan would be able to see they aren't real. But like I said dispelling them or countering them are different than knowing you are in one while I know the Byakugan can't dispell or counter like the Sharingan there is no reason to think they won't know they are caught in one if they are hit with it from secret and they would easily be able to find the real one if a person used clone jutsu.

That wasn't Itachi at all just Itachi's chakra. That's not showing Itachi can do it at all. Itachi's never even shown to do that when it's actually him. And Hanabi never did anything and who is to say he actually meant Hanabi since Hinata is the one he'd surpasss who is the main branch. All we know about Hanabi is that she's stronger than Hinata but that's only because Hinata's scared to fight while she's actually pretty skilled.

Kyuubi's hand has come out a little when first summong Gamabunta though not as much. But Jiraiya also messed with the seal making Naruto able to crossover also. Also Naruto was just about to do what Sasuke did on his own. What does hairstyle matter. Naruto has the same thing said about him when it comes to his father by Kyuubi also. And having the same chakra could amount to being able to summon Kyuubi at the most not being able to control of supress him.

Sasuke said that by just looking into his eyes he felt fear. The genjutsu wasn't anything special it was the intent in Sasuke and the only time a genjutsu has been shown superior is when Tsukiyomi is used. Itachi used Kurenai's own genjutsu against her because he can reverse it but it never said it was stronger and Tsukiyomi is really the only genjutsu that's been uber-powerful.