How do you Expect others to beleive ?

Originally posted by Mindship
God as unconditional love? I agree. And "He" doesn't end there.

Doing good simply because it is the right thing to do, and not to gain benefit? I agree. Nothing makes God happier.

God as ultimate creator? Again, I agree (leaving aside for the moment what you mean by God), though I don't see any problem in also emphasizing the sublime humor in his apparently most unique creation (us).

Though we don't see eye to eye on all things, my feeling is, we're not that far apart, either.

I understand your position, and I do respect it..particularly since you have presented it so well. But unfortunately, we're on different sides of the totem pole with this argument.

My position is God centered, or distinctly expressed by the belief that God possesses sole control of man's destiny. Yours is man-centered, or expressed by the belief that man completely controls this destiny.

So once again, we have both presented ourselves with an either/or situation. Either we have choosen God to direct our lives, or we have choosen this world to do it (choosing this world of course, includes us making decisions for ourselves).

IMO..one can still find a modest amount of happiness and contentment with this world, but at some point they must recognize that something much greater than this world exists, which is an eternal relationship with God. After all, he did create the world didn't he?

Let me clarify what I mean a bit. Think about things from this perspective. Let's say I was your "lady", and you gave me a diamond ring, wouldn't you be a bit disappointed if I fawned over the ring instead of the one who gave it to me? Or how about if I stated to you that the ring created itself, and I was the one who made you give me the ring? I'm sure that wouldn't make you feel too good. Now if I continued to over-empasize the importance of the ring throughout our relationship, you'd probably end up dumping me. You'd be thinking.."What's wrong with this broad, I give the woman a gift..and she's completely forgotten about all that I went through to give her this gift."

Fortunately for you(or maybe unfortunately big guy..😉) I ain't your lady. But on a logical, spiritual and emotional level, I'm sure that if I was, it would make much more sense if I fawned over you, instead of the ring.

So anyway, I'm rambling again..but I think you get the point.

Please note that all of this is not a sermon. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Jadyn
Can the mind bend the laws of physics? Can it cause miraculous healings, with absolutely no ministration from a doctor?

Such as...Until recently, most great medical and scientific advances were made by Theists or Deists. Penicillin? A Christian. Quantum Mechanics? An agnostic-ish deist. Nanotechnology? A Christian.

You assert your position with the same amount of "concrete proof". Why, then, should we give up our faith?

Really? That's odd...because when Missionaries found an isolated South American tribe and began to tell them about Christ, they responded "We know all this. We know of this God, we were just waiting for someone to tell us His name." Stories like this have happened a hundred times over on multiple continents.

do you really want to take on Urizen?

Originally posted by Thundar
My position is God centered, or distinctly expressed by the belief that God possesses sole control of man's destiny. Yours is man-centered, or expressed by the belief that man completely controls this destiny.

IMO..one can still find a modest amount of happiness and contentment with this world, but at some point they must recognize that something much greater than this world exists, which is an eternal relationship with God. After all, he did create the world didn't he?

Please note that all of this is not a sermon. Just a thought.

I know, because the manner in which you express your thoughts says more for you POV than your actual words (I hope that came out right cuz it was meant to be a compliment).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
do you really want to take on Urizen?

Bah, I was scanning this thread and others on the forum and this Urizen was easily defeated by supdude. He made Urizen and everyone else look pretty bad, and he was doing so using bad grammar and smilies!! That's probably why he was banned. I hope someone else like him joins the forum. He definitely made things interesting.

EDIT: Wrong verb tense

Originally posted by Thundar
Bah, I was scanning this thread and others on the forum and this Urizen was easily defeated by supdude. He made Urizen and everyone else look pretty bad, and he was doing so using bad grammar and smilies!! That's probably why he was banned. I hope someone else like him joins the forum. He definitely made things interesting.

EDIT: Wrong verb tense

Where was I defeated by supdude ? 🤨 He's a damn sock !

Originally posted by Jadyn
Can the mind bend the laws of physics? Can it cause miraculous healings, with absolutely no ministration from a doctor?

http://www.mindhealingmiracles.com/

www.bodymindspirithealing.com

www.dreamhealer.com

google Adam + Dreamhealer

Also, google the Survivors of AIDS people who have been healed of this horrid disease, without the "help of God" simply through positive outlook, self care, and healthy diet.

Originally posted by Jadyn
Such as...Until recently, most great medical and scientific advances were made by Theists or Deists. Penicillin? A Christian. Quantum Mechanics? An agnostic-ish deist. Nanotechnology? A Christian.

Atheist Scientists:

Steven Weinberg:founder of electroweak force

Steven Arthur Pinker advocacy of evolutionary psychology and the computational theory of mind

William Donald "Bill" Hamilton was a British evolutionary biologist, considered one of the greatest evolutionary theorists of the 20th century

Sean M. Carroll is a senior research associate in the Department of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is a theoretical cosmologist specializing in dark energy and general relativity.

What's your point ? All I said was that there are Atheists who have made wondorful contributions to the world....you take that was a personal attack, that's your problem.

Originally posted by Jadyn
You assert your position with the same amount of "concrete proof". Why, then, should we give up our faith?

I'm not asking you too ❌

why are you changing the subject ? You are going off topic here.....I am asking you how do you expect ME or any other non beleiver to drop what we beleive and just go along with your beleifs ?

Can you answer that before you start with the irrelevant attacks ? Thanks

Originally posted by Jadyn
Really? That's odd...because when Missionaries found an isolated South American tribe and began to tell them about Christ, they responded "We know all this. We know of this God, we were just waiting for someone to tell us His name." Stories like this have happened a hundred times over on multiple continents.

How do you know it wasn't Christian propaganda ? People can tell you whatever they want. If you are that gullible, then its no wondor you submit to the contradictions of the Bible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
google Adam + Dreamhealer

Also, google the Survivors of AIDS people who have been healed of this horrid disease, without the "help of God" simply through positive outlook, self care, and healthy diet.

The premise of ur logistical conclusion is INVALID. YOU HAVE no abilit to DETERMINE if they WERE HEALED SPIRITUALLLY, SINCE their IS NO NATURAL WAY TO MEASURE HEALLING PERFORMED BY SUPERNATURAL MEANS.

Poor CONCLUSION[/b]

👇

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Atheist Scientists:

Steven Weinberg:founder of electroweak force

Steven Arthur Pinker advocacy of evolutionary psychology and the computational theory of mind

William Donald "Bill" Hamilton was a British evolutionary biologist, considered one of the greatest evolutionary theorists of the 20th century

Sean M. Carroll is a senior research associate in the Department of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is a theoretical cosmologist specializing in dark energy and general relativity.

😆

Isaac Newton the Newtonian Revolution Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;
believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
Charles Darwin Evolution Anglican (nominal); Unitarian
Louis Pasteur the Germ Theory of Disease Catholic
Galileo Galilei the New Science Catholic
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier the Revolution in Chemistry Catholic
Johannes Kepler Motion of the Planets Lutheran
Nicolaus Copernicus the Heliocentric Universe Catholic (priest)
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic
Tycho Brahe the New Astronomy Lutheran

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What's your point ? All I said was that there are Atheists who have made wondorful contributions to the world....you take that was a personal attack, that's your problem.

Both Atheists and tehiest have made VALUABLE contributions to SCIENCE. But that still doesnt take away from ATEHEISM BEING A FATALLY FLAWED BELEIF SYSTEM. I DONT HATE teh PERSON who PRACTICES ATEHEISM. I just dont like the FACT that such a BELEIF SYSTEM BASICALLY DISRESPECTS GOD WITH ITS PHILOSOPHIES, and discrediting, DENYING AND INSULTING his OBVIOUS EXISTENCE.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
why are you changing the subject ? You are going off topic here.....I am asking you how do you expect ME or any other non beleiver to drop what we beleive and just go along with your beleifs ?

Can you answer that before you start with the irrelevant attacks ? Thanks

he did NOT ATTACK YOU. he expressed his BELEIFS. you are both ENTITLED TO DO THIS. but only one of your BELEIF SYSTEMS IS CORRECTS. NO ONE HAS TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE. ITS UP TO YOU TO WANT TO CHANGE.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How do you know it wasn't Christian propaganda ? People can tell you whatever they want. If you are that gullible, then its no wondor you submit to the contradictions of the Bible.

🙄

logical fallicy of ignorant self SERVING CONCLUSIONS.

Jus cause he doesnt BELEIF IN WAHT YOU BELEIF, hes gullible...😆

THATS a silly argument. Maybe he BELEIVES WHAT HE BELEIVES CAUSE HE LOVES WHAT HE READS IN THE BIBLE, JUZ LIKE ME. Not everyone is LIKE YOU. People make CHOICES indpendant of what ur logic, based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. assume that everyone who doesn't CHOOSE WHAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN HAS MADE A CHOICE CAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO DO SO IS THE HEIGHT OF ALL IGNORANCE, CONCEIT, AND IMMATURITY.

You failed in ur ARGUMENT!! BUT I HOPE U'VE LEARNED SOMETHING.

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
The premise of ur logistical conclusion is INVALID. YOU HAVE no abilit to DETERMINE if they WERE HEALED SPIRITUALLLY, SINCE their IS NO NATURAL WAY TO MEASURE HEALLING PERFORMED BY SUPERNATURAL MEANS.

Poor CONCLUSION

👇

😆

Isaac Newton the Newtonian Revolution Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;
believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
Charles Darwin Evolution Anglican (nominal); Unitarian
Louis Pasteur the Germ Theory of Disease Catholic
Galileo Galilei the New Science Catholic
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier the Revolution in Chemistry Catholic
Johannes Kepler Motion of the Planets Lutheran
Nicolaus Copernicus the Heliocentric Universe Catholic (priest)
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic
Tycho Brahe the New Astronomy Lutheran

Both Atheists and tehiest have made VALUABLE contributions to SCIENCE. But that still doesnt take away from ATEHEISM BEING A FATALLY FLAWED BELEIF SYSTEM. I DONT HATE teh PERSON who PRACTICES ATEHEISM. I just dont like the FACT that such a BELEIF SYSTEM BASICALLY DISRESPECTS GOD WITH ITS PHILOSOPHIES, and discrediting, DENYING AND INSULTING his OBVIOUS EXISTENCE.

he did NOT ATTACK YOU. he expressed his BELEIFS. you are both ENTITLED TO DO THIS. but only one of your BELEIF SYSTEMS IS CORRECTS. NO ONE HAS TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE. ITS UP TO YOU TO WANT TO CHANGE.

🙄

logical fallicy of ignorant self SERVING CONCLUSIONS.

Jus cause he doesnt BELEIF IN WAHT YOU BELEIF, hes gullible...😆

THATS a silly argument. Maybe he BELEIVES WHAT HE BELEIVES CAUSE HE LOVES WHAT HE READS IN THE BIBLE, JUZ LIKE ME. Not everyone is LIKE YOU. People make CHOICES indpendant of what ur logic, based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. assume that everyone who doesn't CHOOSE WHAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN HAS MADE A CHOICE CAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO DO SO IS THE HEIGHT OF ALL IGNORANCE, CONCEIT, AND IMMATURITY.

You failed in ur ARGUMENT!! BUT I HOPE U'VE LEARNED SOMETHING. [/B]

PWNED!

you are a supdude sock aren't you? (ya know mildly retarded, has a 9 year old son, can't spell, speaks like he thinks he a gangsta)

The sockage around here has been ridiculous the last few months.

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
The premise of ur logistical conclusion is INVALID. YOU HAVE no abilit to DETERMINE if they WERE HEALED SPIRITUALLLY, SINCE their IS NO NATURAL WAY TO MEASURE HEALLING PERFORMED BY SUPERNATURAL MEANS.

1) None of them gave credit to God....

2) There is more evidense for the existance of the mind then the existance of the spirit

3) Can you supply me with proof of spiritual healing ?

If not, then shut up....

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
Isaac Newton the Newtonian Revolution Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;
believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
Charles Darwin Evolution Anglican (nominal); Unitarian
Louis Pasteur the Germ Theory of Disease Catholic
Galileo Galilei the New Science Catholic
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier the Revolution in Chemistry Catholic
Johannes Kepler Motion of the Planets Lutheran
Nicolaus Copernicus the Heliocentric Universe Catholic (priest)
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic
Tycho Brahe the New Astronomy Lutheran

EVERYONE was Christian back then. You mention Copernicus, Galileo, and Charles Darwin who were threatened by the Church.

Galileo was threatened by the Spanish Inqiusition, to be burnt at the stake for his discoveries.

Their greatness has nothing to do with being Christian..in FACT, there discoveries contradicted the current Christian thinking....it all had to do with thier scientific minds.....which Christianity put a great struggle against.

Thanks for setting up your own trap 😆 👇

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
Both Atheists and tehiest have made VALUABLE contributions to SCIENCE. But that still doesnt take away from ATEHEISM BEING A FATALLY FLAWED BELEIF SYSTEM. I DONT HATE teh PERSON who PRACTICES ATEHEISM. I just dont like the FACT that such a BELEIF SYSTEM BASICALLY DISRESPECTS GOD WITH ITS PHILOSOPHIES, and discrediting, DENYING AND INSULTING his OBVIOUS EXISTENCE.

His obvious existance ? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

You must be schitzophrenic......prove he exists !

More have been killed and tortured in the name of God than anything else throughout History.

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
he did NOT ATTACK YOU. he expressed his BELEIFS. you are both ENTITLED TO DO THIS. but only one of your BELEIF SYSTEMS IS CORRECTS. NO ONE HAS TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE. ITS UP TO YOU TO WANT TO CHANGE.

I dont want to change. How about that ?

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
THATS a silly argument. Maybe he BELEIVES WHAT HE BELEIVES CAUSE HE LOVES WHAT HE READS IN THE BIBLE, JUZ LIKE ME. Not everyone is LIKE YOU. People make CHOICES indpendant of what ur logic, based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. assume that everyone who doesn't CHOOSE WHAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN HAS MADE A CHOICE CAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO DO SO IS THE HEIGHT OF ALL IGNORANCE, CONCEIT, AND IMMATURITY.

When did I say he was forced ? WTF are you talkn about ????

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
You failed in ur ARGUMENT!! BUT I HOPE U'VE LEARNED SOMETHING.

I learned why I chose to begin arguing against Christianity. I feel I must make a contribution to end this cycle of ignorance.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The sockage around here has been ridiculous the last few months.

OMG ! tell me about it ! 😆

Yo_Imburbo is definately a sock ! Either supdude's or Usagi's.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]EVERYONE was Christian back then. You mention Copernicus, Galileo, and Charles Darwin who were threatened by the Church.

Galileo was threatened by the Spanish Inqiusition, to be burnt at the stake for his discoveries.

Their greatness has nothing to do with being Christian..in FACT, there discoveries contradicted the current Christian thinking....it all had to do with thier scientific minds.....which Christianity put a great struggle against.[/B]

Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]OMG ! tell me about it ! 😆

Yo_Imburbo is definately a sock ! Either supdude's or Usagi's. [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

3) Can you supply me with proof of spiritual healing ?

If not, then shut up....

Yes, yes I can. You won't believe any of it, but I can give examples that I have witnessed.

[b]EVERYONE was Christian back then. You mention Copernicus, Galileo, and Charles Darwin who were threatened by the Church.

Galileo was threatened by the Spanish Inqiusition, to be burnt at the stake for his discoveries.

Their greatness has nothing to do with being Christian..in FACT, there discoveries contradicted the current Christian thinking....it all had to do with thier scientific minds.....which Christianity put a great struggle against.

The church didn't fight them because of the science. As I've explained somewhere else, there were several valid reasons for not accepting their discoveries. The first among them being a lack of concrete proof for their ideas.

More have been killed and tortured in the name of God than anything else throughout History.

yes, I forgot, it was the Christians who fought meaningless wars in ancient times, it was the Christians who slaughtered millions of Jews, and obviously the Christians who bomb buildings.

Forgive me, but that's a rather weak argument. Anyone can claim to be doing something "in the name of God." Most people don't take into account that there are several safeguards the church has setup to test and see if it really is. They just take the guy's word for it.

I dont want to change. How about that ?

No one is forcing you to.

I learned why I chose to begin arguing against Christianity. I feel I must make a contribution to end this cycle of ignorance. [/B]

I've already pointed out that not all Christians are ignorant, and we don't all spout party lines and cliches when defending our faith. You stereotype us by the most vocal ones.

Originally posted by Jadyn

yes, I forgot, it was the Christians who fought meaningless wars in ancient times, it was the Christians who slaughtered millions of Jews, and obviously the Christians who bomb buildings.

people other than Christains can kill in the name of God (Muslim terrorists, Jews in the OT)

the crusaders were Christian, the conquistadors were Christian

Hitler was not an athiest (not a christian either, but he believed he was doing Gods work)

Theists have done a lot of damage in their time (not to say they haven't done good things too)

Originally posted by finti
but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek

Wow that was quite intelligent.

watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63OkUcim8M0

those who think islam is spread by the sword watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciqH-ER157o

Originally posted by muslimscholar
those who think islam is spread by the sword watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciqH-ER157o

Well yes it was, read your history. The fact that some chick converted to Islam doesnt change a thing.