Originally posted by Nellinator
Not really. Punishment is only justified for breaches of Law for those who live under the Law. Since the Law has been replaced by Jesus's covenant justification for any of it is really non-existant within the Bible. However, human nature automatically rejects people for being different and you will find that no matter where you look, whether is religious or otherwise.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The new covenant is far tougher then the old one. Now if you think a sin, you have done that sin. Therefore, to say that you are not under the law is pure ignorance. Fortunately, I don't believe in any of that stuff.
Originally posted by NellinatorThe Bible states that Christ "fulfilled" the Law. It also states that not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Law "till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18). The term "all" as it is used in the biblical verse is not limited to the Law being fulfilled, my interpretation of the verse is that the Law will not pass away until all of God's plan is fulfilled (Luke 24:44). If the verse were in reference to only the Law, then the term "all" would have been replaced with "all the law." Also, to fulfill does not necessitate an end. Christ clarifies this fallacy by stating, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17).
The Law is different from law. The capital L differentiates between the OT Law in the Torah and current laws. Jesus did not create 'laws' really. He more created and offered a better way of living, a way to free of even thinking about sinful things. And since you correctly believe that wrongful thinking leads to wrongful actions you can see this as a good thing I am sure.
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionaryfulfill
One entry found for fulfill.Main Entry: ful·fill
Variant(s): or ful·fil /fu(l)-'fil also f&(l)-/
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ful·filled; ful·fill·ing
Etymology: Middle English fulfillen, from Old English fullfyllan, from full + fyllan to fill
1 archaic : to make full : FILL <her subtle, warm, and golden breath...fulfills him with beatitude -- Alfred Tennyson>
2 a : to put into effect : EXECUTE b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) c : to bring to an end d : to measure up to : SATISFY
3 a : to convert into reality b : to develop the full potentialities of
Now, Christ did not alter the law in any manner, the beatitudes and the counsel following them are a rather deep and meaningful discussion that need to be carefully pondered and meditated over to truly understand.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenChrist clarified the Law, giving a guideline to who was capable of delivering punishment within the law, that only an individual without sin was worthy of judging whether another had sinned (John 8:7). The Jews had lost sight of who could impose the consequences of the Law. God's prophet had set up those who could judge minor cases. If a case was deserving of a harsh penalty the case was moved up from a lower judge to a higher judge, and so on until the judgement was made by the prophet following God's counsel on the subject. People were not killed or handled in a violent manner prior to the case reaching the prophet, and the prophet did not mete out the sentence, he received the sentence for such from God. And Nellinator is correct, the consequences of the Law only applied to those that had agreed to live under the Law, or were Hebrew. Hebrews were never condemned to remain Hebrews, they could always leave the nation should they choose.
True, except for that fact that Atheism gives no direct permission to do these things, while Christianity and Islam do....the Bible and Quran both promote violence against those who are different.
Here are the quotations for my post, I will not bother sifting through the Law of Moses to find the verses supporting my final comments, but if you wish to learn about the Law of Moses, and you must read the entire Law to grasp some of the nuances, the books for reference are:
Exodus (Ex.) (Chapters 19-40)
Leviticus (Lev.) (Mainly laws dealing with clergy, but as with all the books on Law there are various general laws presented)
Numbers (Num.) (Numbers is mainly population control and genealogy, but it does have some of the general law contained therein.)
Deuteronomy (Deut.) (A combination of record of the Hebrew conquest of the land that becomes Israel, laws dealing with support of priests, and covenants between Israel and God. The conquest of Israel should be considered war and not general acceptability of these behaviors in other situations. Deuteronomy ends with Moses' leaving.)
Matt. 5: 17-18
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Rom. 13: 8, 10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
• • •
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.Luke 24: 44
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.John 15: 25
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.Rom. 2: 27
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?Rom. 8: 4
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.Gal. 5: 14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Gal. 6: 2
2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.James 2: 8
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:John 8: 7
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Originally posted by Regret
The Bible states that Christ "fulfilled" the Law. It also states that not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Law "till [b]all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18). The term "all" as it is used in the biblical verse is not limited to the Law being fulfilled, my interpretation of the verse is that the Law will not pass away until all of God's plan is fulfilled (Luke 24:44). If the verse were in reference to only the Law, then the term "all" would have been replaced with "all the law." Also, to fulfill does not necessitate an end. Christ clarifies this fallacy by stating, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17).Now, Christ did not alter the law in any manner, the beatitudes and the counsel following them are a rather deep and meaningful discussion that need to be carefully pondered and meditated over to truly understand.
Christ clarified the Law, giving a guideline to who was capable of delivering punishment within the law, that only an individual without sin was worthy of judging whether another had sinned (John 8:7). The Jews had lost sight of who could impose the consequences of the Law. God's prophet had set up those who could judge minor cases. If a case was deserving of a harsh penalty the case was moved up from a lower judge to a higher judge, and so on until the judgement was made by the prophet following God's counsel on the subject. People were not killed or handled in a violent manner prior to the case reaching the prophet, and the prophet did not mete out the sentence, he received the sentence for such from God. And Nellinator is correct, the consequences of the Law only applied to those that had agreed to live under the Law, or were Hebrew. Hebrews were never condemned to remain Hebrews, they could always leave the nation should they choose.
Here are the quotations for my post, I will not bother sifting through the Law of Moses to find the verses supporting my final comments, but if you wish to learn about the Law of Moses, and you must read the entire Law to grasp some of the nuances, the books for reference are:
Exodus (Ex.) (Chapters 19-40)
Leviticus (Lev.) (Mainly laws dealing with clergy, but as with all the books on Law there are various general laws presented)
Numbers (Num.) (Numbers is mainly population control and genealogy, but it does have some of the general law contained therein.)
Deuteronomy (Deut.) (A combination of record of the Hebrew conquest of the land that becomes Israel, laws dealing with support of priests, and covenants between Israel and God. The conquest of Israel should be considered war and not general acceptability of these behaviors in other situations. Deuteronomy ends with Moses' leaving.) [/B]
I think it's also important to note that Christ himself fulfilled the Law, to allow salvation for mankind. Since he did this, there is no longer a need for any man to attempt to do so by himself. Our responsability as Christians is to first have faith in Christ, and let him perform all of the works through us.
Originally posted by Thundar
I think it's also important to note that Christ himself fulfilled the Law, to allow salvation for mankind. Since he did this, there is no longer a need for any man to attempt to do so by himself. Our responsability as Christians is to first have faith in Christ, and let him perform all of the works through us.
That sounds very comforting, but considering the fact that Christianity has been the major religion for centuries, and much violence and oppression has occured from now until way back, I'd rather not depend on "Christ".....
Originally posted by Thundar
I think it's also important to note that Christ himself fulfilled the Law, to allow salvation for mankind. Since he did this, there is no longer a need for any man to attempt to do so by himself. Our responsability as Christians is to first have faith in Christ, and let him perform all of the works through us.
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.... Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being freely justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to a be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God..." Romans 3:20-25
The law was definitely fulfilled and made better through Jesus. Jesus justifies us through His blood. The law justifies no one.
So far you have all given your point of views on the validity of a religion, but that is not what I am asking you.....
I am asking you why do so many of you lack empathy ? Why do you lack the ability to see through the eyes of the other person ?
I understand why you beleive what you beleive....I don't care about that, save all that for another thread
What I am asking you is how do you expect another person to drop thier beleifs and beleive in yours, when they probably have as MUCH reason and justification for thier beleifs as you do yours ?
Originally posted by Lord UrizenWhat I am asking you is how do you expect another person to drop thier beleifs and beleive in yours, when they probably have as MUCH reason and justification for thier beleifs as you do yours ? [/B]
Quite honestly? We believe we're right, same as anyone else. Why do a large number of atheists think that they need to "enlighten " those who are "blinded" by religion? Why does anyone think that anyone else should ascribe to their beliefs? They think they're right, and think that the truth is important.
Why do a large number of atheists think that they need to "enlighten " those who are "blinded" by religion?actually most atheist dont give a rats ass about what others believe, they dont have this huge urge to butt in and tell others how to live their life unlike certain aspect of a religious followers.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No....stoning, burning, and simple killing will do just fine according to the Old Testament 😉
My feeling is, the Bible needs to be interpreted on many levels, as it includes many aspects of life during ancient times. Sure, a lot of it is primitive and brutal, but 3000 years from now, what will Humankind make of our behavior, for all the goodness we profess?
I personally am not convinced (not yet, anyway 😉 ) that there can not be any people with genuine vision, now or back then.
My feeling is, the Bible needs to be interpreted on many levels, as it includes many aspects of life during ancient times. Sure, a lot of it is primitive and brutal, but 3000 years from now, what will Humankind make of our behavior, for all the goodness we profess?but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek
actually most atheist dont give a rats ass about what others believe, they dont have this huge urge to butt in and tell others how to live their life unlike certain aspect of a religious followers.
Really? All of the ones I've meant have tried to tell me how stupid I am, so you'll forgive me if I doubt.
Originally posted by finti
but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek
The Old Testament is more of a warning than anything. It's meant as a "Be glad you don't have to live like this anymore." And, "turn the other cheek" should be understood in cultural context. In Jewish culture, the left side was considered "evil", thus to strike someone with your left hand or on the left side of their body was to make yourself "unclean", outcast. Thus, without a weapon, the only way to "legally" hit someone was to backhand them. Thus, if you "turned the other cheek", your abuser could not strike you without making himself "unclean".
The Bible is not meant to be read literally in all places. Much of the Old Testament is poetry, with all of the literary techniques that implies. Jesus himself said that His words would need to be reinterpreted as the world changed. Things like rules for slavery and divorce, which made sense in his day and age, no longer do, and as such must be discarded or altered. (If anyone wants to hear my rationalization for that in religious context, PM me.)
Originally posted by Nellinator
It wasn't an argument. I just assume that the above post wasn't directed at me because I think we reached an agreement of the first page of this thread. The only reason this thread continues is because some people don't give straight answers.
It wasn't directed at you, and yes no one else besides you has really given a straight answer.
Regret has such repeated why he beleives what he beleives, but has only concluded that he doesn't expect the rest of us to beleive what he says. He expects us to find out what he deems "the truth" eventually and on our own.
Lil B has just continued her same bullshit with me about how she thinks I'm bashing Christianity again, and no one else has really gotten to the point.