Hmm, if you're tortured permanently in hell...

found this while searching:

http://www.carm.org/uni/foreverandever.htm

Is the English phrase "forever and ever" a proper translation of the Greek? Does it mean without end? Is it ever used of something not eternal? Does it refer to eternal torment? These questions are important because the universalist position denies the eternality of hell fire. Universalists take the literal Greek phrase of "eis tous aionas ton aionon, -- into the age of the ages" which is commonly translated as "forever and ever," "forevermore," and state that it refers to an age of time, a finite period of time.
It is true that the basic root of "aion" means age. But it is not true that all words derived from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase means "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever , eternally."’1
Additionally, the phrase is used to describe both God's eternal attributes and His eternal nature as well as eternal torment.
Following is a table containing every single usage of the Greek phrase "eis tous aionas ton aionon -- into the age of the ages." It clearly shows that it means "forever," "without end." The first two verses deal with eternal condemnation and judgment. The next 16 deal with God's Glory and honor.

"into the age of the ages"
Translated as "forever and ever"; "forevermore"

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
"to whom be the glory forevermore, Amen" (Gal. 1:2)
"Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Phil. 4:20)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
"The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (2 Tim. 4:18).
"equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Heb. 13:21).
"Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet. 4:11).
"and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 1:6).
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades," (Rev. 1:18).
"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, [/b]to Him who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 4:9).
"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship [b]Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne," (Rev. 4:10).
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever," (Rev. 5:13).
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 7:12).
"and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer," (Rev. 10:6).
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever,'" (Rev. 11:15).
"And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 15:7).
"And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever," (Rev. 22:5).
Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every instance of the phrase shows eternality.
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

__________________

1 Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

again...
to Him who lives forever and ever
so by your logic and translation, god will die/end

Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

Originally posted by PVS
found this while searching:

http://www.carm.org/uni/foreverandever.htm

again...
[b]to Him who lives forever and ever
so by your logic and translation, god will die/end [/B]

I hate to renege what I previously stated about repeating myself, but its quite apparent that you continue to completely overlook the argument that I'd presented. Perhaps you misunderstood it, so let me repeat it once again in more common terms.

Hell is not eternal, however, for those who reject Christ..death is. IMO, I believe this is what the scripture is referring to. Think about it logically PVS. What's the opposite of eternal life?

Answer: Eternal death.

If Christ equals eternal life, then obviously the Beast, the False Prophet, and the ANTI-Christ(key word here is ANTI) represent eternal death.

So death(or the Anti-Christ himself) will be completely destroyed, and those who choose him will be destroyed as well, seeing as how they are choosing death(Satan) over life(Christ).

The scripture supports this notion in the following verse from Revelations:

Revelations 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Remember my friend, Satan was a murderer from the beginning and the literal perpetrator and originator of death. So death itself is actually something that is completely apart from God. Satan being originator of sin and death, will be forced to suffer this thing called death that he caused eternally, as will all sinners who choose him over God.

Hell is completely different from this eternal death, and is meant as divine punishment to all those who have commited sin, or as stated by Paul:

Corinthians 2 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

So after everyone who has rejected Christ has received every "bad" thing back that they done upon themselves in hell, they will meet eternal(or second) death. This includes of course the Beast, the False Prophet, the Anti-Chist, and all of those in Hell itself.

cont...

concluded...

So is it really possible for one's spiritual state or soul to be destroyed?
Well according to the bible it is. Let's look at scripture again:

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who can only kill the body, but fear God who can destroy your body and soul in hell.

So quite simply put, the soul itself can be die. So what state will one be in when they've rejected God, and their soul has been destroyed? And what is this state called?

Well going back to Revelations 20:14, we see that this spiritual death is referred to as the "second death."

As we see within this physical plane, when one dies, they cease to exist. So if you don't exist anymore then guess what? You really can't be tortured, or do anything else for that matter.

So again, all those who reject Christ..will ultimately, be completely eradicated from existence. For with the complete abscense of love(or Christ), the only thing that remains is eternal death.

The End

Originally posted by Thundar
The End

wrong. pointing out contradictory statements only proves that the bible contradicts itself. not the end, but rather the problem. i know you just want to wrap it all up for the win, but this issue is widely debated and far from dead.

that doesnt take away from what you choose to believe, but its very smug to declare that simple logic leads to your conclusion.

but enough of you.

nell, please answer: if "forever and ever" does not describe eternity, and god is repeatedly declared to live/reign forever and ever...does that mean that god is not eternal?

Well, the Bible does discuss many ages. So whenever something speaks of an age we have to think about which age it is pertaining to and if the Bible gives any information on what will happen in it and when it will end.
In the case of the lake of fire it is strongly indicated that the fire eventually devours and consumes the people in it. I often think that this proportional to the persons sin and therefore is the punishment. Now, I have only believed in annihilation in the lake of fire for about a month now and I'm still looking into it and your question is the exact one I asked myself and am looking at. It has become apparent to me that unlike the lake of fire which does come to end, there is no indication that the kingdom of God will come to an end.

This is how I believe it is broken down:
1) Tribulation - 7 years
2) Millenial reigh - 1000 years
3) Judgement Day (death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire) - an age
4) Lake of Fire finally consumes Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet
5) Kingdom of God - the last age that is indeed eternal

Originally posted by PVS
oh and nell, thanks for shedding some light on this possibility. its nice to see someone actively trying to solve a problem rather than trying to dodge it.

However, if you insist...

"Eis tous aionas ton aionon" means "into the eon of eons" or "into the age of ages." The ages of God can have a set period of time (such as a thousand years) or an indefinite period of time. The point is that those who have not accepted salvation suffer the second death (being thrown into the lake of fire) while Satan and demons are hurled into the lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:13-15
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

(Also, "Hades" means "grave," if you were wondering; it is the same as "Sheol" in Hebrew.)

Furthermore, the phrase translated as "forever and ever" is translated in the exact same manner despite it occurring in three separate ways:

1. "Into the eon of eon."
2. "Into the eon of eons."
3. "Into the eons of eons."

Though these differences are slight, they are not the same thing. Unless the writer of that article cares to go through the original languages and write out the exact translations of the verses he quoted, his argument falls short.

I was reading that passage last night and sorta wondered whether the lakes were indeed distinct. I'm still thinking about it, but I think it might be difficult without the original language.

For a second or two, I thought it would be really great for myself, Feceman, or Nellinator to have posted an owned pic, but I figured that it would really take away from the awsome display of the power of the Holy Spirit that was just displayed here. So I figured I'd just give you both a "Job well done gentlemen." 😉

Originally posted by Thundar
For a second or two, I thought it would be really great for myself, Feceman, or Nellinator to have posted an owned pic, but I figured that it would really take away from the awsome display of the power of the Holy Spirit that was just displayed here. So I figured I'd just give you both a "Job well done gentlemen." 😉

just so you know, this:

Originally posted by PVS
wrong. pointing out contradictory statements only proves that the bible contradicts itself. not the end, but rather the problem. i know you just want to wrap it all up for the win, but this issue is widely debated and far from dead.

that doesnt take away from what you choose to believe, but its very smug to declare that simple logic leads to your conclusion.

was aimed at you. you, who's point had nothing to do with either of theirs. so please stop the orgasmic cheerleading and slobbering before you end up twisting one of their nuts backwards.

anyway, thanks for posting that feceman. however then by such scripture there really isnt hell on the scale that is commonly taught, is there? no mention of criminals of any sort in the lake of fire...

You're right, the commonly held view of hell is incorrect, however, I have feeling that a lot of criminals wouldn't be in the book of life which would mean their destruction.

Originally posted by Nellinator
You're right, the commonly held view of hell is incorrect,...

💃

Originally posted by lord xyz
Wouldn't you get used to it? I mean, everyone gets used to everything, so why can't we get used to torture? Therefore, if we get used to torture, hell seems to backfire doesn't it?

To be honest I always felt the concept of "heaven" was one that had the trademarks of numbing.

I mean really, what is there to do? What divine trick is God going to pull to keep people up their enjoying it for a little thing known as eternity?

Mr. Thinks to Much Man: So... this is heaven. Sure is glorious. Nicest place I've ever been. What happens now?

Jesus: Ah... you enjoy it? Forever? You're reward for faith in the holy father and me.

Mr. TtMM: Yeah... but what about a job? Things to strive for? Things to achieve?

Jesus: Why do you need such things?

Mr. TtMM: Well... they made things interesting on earth, didn't they? I mean varied life! Highs and lows? That feeling when you hold your baby for the first time, or the applause at a perfect piano recital... the joys of achievement offset by the hopefully rare pains of failure or loss which never the less could be potent, inspiring things in their own right. What does one actually do in heaven? Or is it just going to be some sort of eternal beige paradise? Just being content forever?

Jesus: Actually...

Mr. TtMM: And for that matter it is probably better life doesn't last forever - I mean things dull a bit, people get tired, passions fade... how exactly are gold streets and trees with every kind of fruit going to keep one blissful for the better part of forever? Are you telling me that us souls, human souls, are going to maintain the same extent of rapturous joy at being here for eternity? That I'm going to get up every morning forever and go "Woohoo! Another fun filled day in heaven! Which is good, since I have so much to do left over from the last infinite number of them."....

Etc.

And I mean - if one believes in the soul, and that it is kind of the source of us - well, then it is the source of human nature. And since no one is perfect wont heaven be full of imperfect souls drifting around? Christians, Muslims etc - well, they are just the ones who ended up on the right side of the law - not really better people by definition, just as prone to sin on earth as anybody else - they just ask for forgiveness from the right source. What gets rid of human nature? Do they undergo some sort of spiritual lobotomy? After all, if all those people who ended up in hell retain themselves in such a way as to appreciate the sadistic tortures God condones... I mean the justice they so richly deserve, well, wouldn't heaven simply be filled with slightly less corporeal people? Just as capable of feeling alone or unhappy or, apparently, pain? Just like a nicer earth only with less to do. How does mister man feel when he finds out his children ended up in hell (one because she converted to another faith, another because he was an atheist while the third lapsed after his wife died in a horrible fight with cancer)? Or does heaven somehow mean he wont feel pain, playing his harp, at the thought those he loved the most are being abused by Satans finest?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Mr. Thinks to Much Man: So... this is heaven. Sure is glorious. Nicest place I've ever been. What happens now?

Jesus: Ah... you enjoy it? Forever? You're reward for faith in the holy father and me.

Mr. TtMM: Yeah... but what about a job? Things to strive for? Things to achieve?

Jesus: Why do you need such things?

Mr. TtMM: Well... they made things interesting on earth, didn't they? I mean varied life! Highs and lows? That feeling when you hold your baby for the first time, or the applause at a perfect piano recital... the joys of achievement offset by the hopefully rare pains of failure or loss which never the less could be potent, inspiring things in their own right. What does one actually do in heaven? Or is it just going to be some sort of eternal beige paradise? Just being content forever?

Jesus: Actually...

Mr. TtMM: And for that matter it is probably better life doesn't last forever - I mean things dull a bit, people get tired, passions fade... how exactly are gold streets and trees with every kind of fruit going to keep one blissful for the better part of forever? Are you telling me that us souls, human souls, are going to maintain the same extent of rapturous joy at being here for eternity? That I'm going to get up every morning forever and go "Woohoo! Another fun filled day in heaven! Which is good, since I have so much to do left over from the last infinite number of them."....

This should go in the relgious humor section!

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Or does heaven somehow mean he wont feel pain, playing his harp, at the thought those he loved the most are being abused by Satans finest?

To make it to heaven he'll have to hate them for being evil. 😛

Originally posted by Galan007
Can one get used to eternal depression and mental suffering?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And I mean - if one believes in the soul, and that it is kind of the source of us - well, then it is the source of human nature. And since no one is perfect wont heaven be full of imperfect souls drifting around? Christians, Muslims etc - well, they are just the ones who ended up on the right side of the law - not really better people by definition, just as prone to sin on earth as anybody else - they just ask for forgiveness from the right source. What gets rid of human nature? Do they undergo some sort of spiritual lobotomy? After all, if all those people who ended up in hell retain themselves in such a way as to appreciate the sadistic tortures God condones... I mean the justice they so richly deserve, well, wouldn't heaven simply be filled with slightly less corporeal people? Just as capable of feeling alone or unhappy or, apparently, pain? Just like a nicer earth only with less to do. How does mister man feel when he finds out his children ended up in hell (one because she converted to another faith, another because he was an atheist while the third lapsed after his wife died in a horrible fight with cancer)? Or does heaven somehow mean he wont feel pain, playing his harp, at the thought those he loved the most are being abused by Satans finest?

"misconceptions" 😆

It's not funny in the context. He simply has misconceptions about what the Bible says. That's not funny or ironic.

The bible can't get though two chapters without contradictiong itself and you're telling me that you have a correct conception of this book?

I'm saying that he's basing his conceptions on nothing but what he's been told.