Pre-retcon Beyonder v.s. The Brothers (pre-retcon)

Originally posted by h1a8
First of all, look who is talking in the scan. Second, the multiverse mentioned in the scan isn't the Marvel multiverse but a smaller subset (If there exists such a thing).
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since [B]all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics. If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true. [/B]

firefirefireph

I used a deductive argument. Meaning if the premises are true then the conclusion is necessarily true. But if the conclusion is false then at least one of the premises is false. So if my conclusion above is false then explain which one of my premises is false.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Acknowledge what?

If the New Universe was introduced in Nov. 86

and Secret Wars II took place in mid 85'

the only thing to acknowledge is that Beyonder was everything OUTSIDE the Multiverse until Nov. 86.

The New Universe wasn't just sitting there waiting to be discovered, (this isn't real life) it was CREATED for the Nov. 86 publication.

I don't care if it was imagined 20 years before Secret Wars.

You need to care because it matters as far as debating Pre Retcon Beyonder is concerned.

If we're debating Pre retcon Beyonder, then its Beyonder up until Fantastic Four #319 when the retcon was introduced. NOT a specific date in a specific comic that YOU want to focus on.

If you want to tailor a matchup so that Beyonder stands a better chance then by all means make your own thread stating we can only reference how Beyonder seemed in issue blah blah on date blah blah.

Otherwise acknowledge that as far as continuity is concerned, Pre retcon Beyonder was NOT all there was beyond the multiverse. He was JUST all we knew of beyond the multiverse until we were told otherwise in 1986 DURING THE PRE RETCON PERIOD.

Thats enough.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Otherwise acknowledge that as far as continuity is concerned, Pre retcon Beyonder was NOT all there was beyond the multiverse. He was JUST all we knew of beyond the multiverse until we were told otherwise in 1986 DURING THE PRE RETCON PERIOD.

Thats enough.

As far as Continuity is concerned the New Universe DID NOT Exist before Nov. 1986.

So Beyonder was everything OUSTIDE the Multiverse upto Nov. 1986.

Now,

that's enough.

I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics. If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true

Originally posted by Mr Master
As far as Continuity is concerned the New Universe DID NOT Exist before Nov. 1986.

So Beyonder was everything OUSTIDE the Multiverse upto Nov. 1986.

Now,

that's enough.

As far as Pre retcon Beyonder continuity is concerned he was never all there is outside the multiverse as were informed of the existence of the New Universe during the pre retcon period.

Thats all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As far as Pre retcon Beyonder continuity is concerned he was never all there is outside the multiverse as were informed of the existence of the New Universe during the pre retcon period.

Thats all.

Opinions vs On Panel evidence,

wonder who will win.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Read it again then:

"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, BEYOND ALL KNOW EXISTENCE!

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"

"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"

This scan is from Secret Wars II in 1985.

The New Universe was NOT introduced in publication until Nov. 1986

So until Nov. 1986, this is how it was.

I think GS is talking about the entire pre-retcon Beyonder continuity as a whole, and during the reign of Beyonder (pre-ret) a new Universe was introduced.

But Mr M is saying that BEFORE 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse.

So in a nuttshell....

Up to 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse. After 1986, a new Universe was revealed, so Beyonder was no longer everything outside of the Multiverse............. Correct?

Both seem to be logical, I just don't think it's clear to both of you, what the other is talking about.

Either that, or you just want to argue, and in that case I'll keep my big mouth shut.😂

Originally posted by Galan007
I think GS is talking about the entire pre-retcon Beyonder continuity as a whole, and during the reign of Beyonder (pre-ret) a new Universe was introduced.

But Mr M is saying that BEFORE 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse.

So in a nuttshell....

Up to 1986 Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse. After 1986, a new Universe was revealed, so Beyonder was no longer everything outside of the Multiverse............. Correct?

The Beyonder's reign ended when he became an Infinite Universe at the end of Secret Wars II, March 1986.

The New Universe was introduced into publication in November 1986.

But we NEVER heard from the Beyonder again until October 1988, where he was retconned.

So between May 1984 and Mar. 1986, Beyonder was everything Outside the Multiverse, On Panel.

This continued (Off Panel) until later on that year in Nov. 1986, when the New Universe officially became another Universe Outside of the Multiverse.

Jst to mentioned something to support the brothers, it has been stated that before they split assunder they where everything ying and yang god and bad and so on, will you mr master say that the beyonder is beyond this ??? because there can be on beyond. He doesn't exist

Originally posted by Utrigita
Jst to mentioned something to support the brothers, it has been stated that before they split assunder they where everything ying and yang god and bad and so on,

They were everything, and so was the Infinity Being, so take your pick on who truly was the "Ying and Yang"

It was ALL THAT WAS, and all that was....... was it.

No one would fault you if you were to call it GOD. What other name would fit?:

(Galan thanx for the scans)

The only difference is,

that Marvel vs DC (where the Brothers were everything) was NEVER Canon.

And this issue with the Infinity Being IS Canon.

For the purposes of this thread we are using the Brothers

Originally posted by Mr Master
They were everything, and so was the Infinity Being, so take your pick on who truly was the "Ying and Yang"

It was ALL THAT WAS, and all that was....... was it.

No one would fault you if you were to call it GOD. What other name would fit?:

(Galan thanx for the scans)

The only difference is,

that Marvel vs DC (where the Brothers were everything) was NEVER Canon.

And this issue with the Infinity Being IS Canon.

OH you mean like the secret wars II, that with beyonder that was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne. where beyonder is unstoppable MM reparering the multiverse, and beyonder being beyond Marvels multiverse isn't canon I get your point.

AND if i may correct you again from what i have learned, the brothers was believed/supposed to be TOAA and the Presence but this was droppede, and don't come here saying that beyonder can beat THOSE TWO POWERHOUSES

Originally posted by Utrigita
OH you mean like the secret wars II, that with beyonder that was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne. where beyonder is unstoppable MM reparering the multiverse, and beyonder being beyond Marvels multiverse isn't canon I get your point.

always thought beyonder was a contro character

always brings about a ret con

Originally posted by h1a8
I've read Secret Wars many times as a kid. There is more than 1 multiverse, so saying "Beyond [B]the Multiverse" is incorrect (must use plural noun unless you are referring to the Marvel Multiverse). In conjunction to that, there is no mention that he is outside the Marvel multiverse (maybe UNIVERSE) for that would be impossible due to the definition of the Marvel Multiverse.
You missing a very easy point.
By definition: The Marvel multiverse is the collection of all the universes that exist in the marvel comics. Also by definition: any universe that is shown by Marvel then it is in the Marvel Multiverse. Thus making the statement "He's Beyond the Multiverse! .. and He is EVERYTHING Beyond the Multiverse!" false. [/B]

All true

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanks for highlighting that. Works for me. 🙂

Proof your comprehension skills are far greater than MMs bless him

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Brothers win, it's 2 against 1.

True

Originally posted by h1a8
First of all, look who is talking in the scan. Second, the multiverse mentioned in the scan isn't the Marvel multiverse but a smaller subset (If there exists such a thing).
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since [B]all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics.

If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true. [/B]

true

Originally posted by h1a8
I used a deductive argument. Meaning if the premises are true then the conclusion is necessarily true. But if the conclusion is false then at least one of the premises is false. So if my conclusion above is false then explain which one of my premises is false.

I tried similar logic on Masters yesterday and was called an idiot, I don't think he understands what you are explaining.

Damn that Mr Masters took a hell of a beating.

🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
I reason as follows:
The definition of the Marvel Multiverse is either true or false.
But it has to be true since all definitions are true (they are not theories). And since it is true then the universe that the Beyonder is from is part of or included in the Marvel Multiverse since it is a universe shown by Marvel comics. If not, then the assumption that the definition of the Marvel Multiverse is true is actually false. But we all know that this cannot be. Hence the Beyonder and his realm is apart of the Marvel Multiverse. It doesn't matter who says what (not even stan lee). For example, if I define the Marvel Multiverse to be the collection or set of all the universes that Marvel comics has ever shown and then say that the Beyonder's universe (a universe that marvel shows) is outside this multiverse then the second statement is wrong since both they contradict each other (making at least one false) and the first statement (the definition) is always true

I think you finding out the limitations of the human language to describe things that transcend existence. You sound like a young David Hume. 🙂

Originally posted by Utrigita
OH you mean like the secret wars II, that with beyonder that was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne. where beyonder is unstoppable MM reparering the multiverse,

Originally posted by Mr Master Read it again:

"Here we are someplace OUTSIDE Earth's Universe AND ALL the Infinite Adjacent DIMENSIONS which MAKE UP the MULTIVERSE,

in other words, Beyond ALL Known Existence

This must be the "BEYOND REALM"

"I AM the SUM of EVERYTHING BEYOND"

dontgetit

Originally posted by Utrigita
and beyonder being beyond Marvels multiverse isn't canon I get your point.

Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while you're at it.

thanx...

Originally posted by Mr Master dontgetit

Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while your at it.

It's you're......

Where to begin? 🙂

😆

Originally posted by Mr Master
dontgetit

Apparently you did not get my point cause I never said that.

But don't mind me, continue to make stuff up while you're at it.

thanx... [/B]

No problem, thank you for thanking me, as I noticed in your edit you have corrected your basic error in grammar. Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me. Either on the board or through p.m. Anything, comprehension, grammar, comic interpretation as per the major companies, common sense, you name it 🙂 I can help you.