Thats exactly what I was saying leonidas.
My post said:
"But Mr. Master, how do you know the New Universe didn't exist prior to 1986? Is it because it wasn't introduce before 1986? If that is the case then using the same logic Beyonder didn't exist before he was introduced either. Same is with Galactus. I guess Galactus isn't old as the 616 universe after all.
Please answer the following questions:
Do you believe now (2007) that the Beyonder's realm is inside the Marvel Multiverse (which includes the new universe)?
If so, would that then make him under the jurisdiction of the Brothers now ?"
Originally posted by Mr Master
No it is NOT impossible,Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse between May 1984 and Nov. 1986.
the Brothers did NOT Exist until the 1997 publication, of DC vs Marvel.
A couple of Months later in 1997 Adventures of the X-Men came out, and your Brothers went from the TOAA and the Presence, to TWO Megaverses in the Living Tribunal's hand, to do with as he wished.
"Two SIBLINGS whom the Tribunal has a place for in his great scheme of things"Why would I say Beyonder is not from beyond the Multiverse, if I been arguing that he is for the longest?
Where did you see me say that?
That's nice.
The Brothers were published WAY after the Beyonder had been Retconned.
So what's your point friend?
And it's still NOT Canon.
Dude, those issues were voted on by FANS to determine the winners.
Secret Wars was not Canon.
Interesting, yet it's mentioned all over the 2006 Bios.
Where do you think Spiderman's Black suit came from?
Which lead to Venom and Carnage.
Black costumed Spider Woman?
Titania?
Volcana?
First time we see Ben Grimm after becoming the Thing.
Molecule Man learns he can control Organic Molecules.
Pre-retcon Beyonder erased Death from the Multiverse, and it was counted as a POST-Retcon FEAT and it's CANON.
Death is ERASED across The Entire Multiverse
excerpt from Official Hanbook of the Marvelk Universe v5 (2006)
So much for Secret Wars not being Canon.
Evidently Secret Wars IS very much CANON.
Mr M I think that we can reach the conclusion that we will NEVER agree about this topic, now back on topic.
One of the foundemantionelly problems we face in these discussion both of us is the time difference you are basing your fact on a comic book from 1984-1986 while I base my facts on a ten years later basic.
I fail to see the difference in a reconnect that lasted four month to one that lasted 2 years the only reason for these is that marvel probably is getting faster in reconnecting something they find out is out of order.
Know it is my turn to say something about the secrets wars, you misread I wasn’t referring to Secret Wars I but II which you thought, and true the erasing of death exist in a pro BUT there the Greater Powers (death included) tricked beyonder in a way so the thought that he had erased death.
On of the early questions was, Can LT do anything against beyonder you reply was no, but that isn’t true: for different reasons.
LT being one of the only beings to constantly having Relative Omnipotence Omniscience Omnipresence, from these facts I can conclude that he knows that Death will be erased and that beyonder will remake her again. Another Fact is that with death gone he cannot kill beyonder as beyonder in theory shouldn’t be able to kill anything like MM couldn’t kill a rose.
The last fact: You said yourself that LT job is to ensure the cosmic balance, but if just one of his three heads disagrees then LT is in fact powerless, and again I must referee to the oldest law in the universe. SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, and beyonder was stronger than death, but still wasn’t so powerful that he could erase her with a gesture, he had to give up some of his own energy.
The Brothers on the other hand was shown to possess powers that was beyond the LT ability to understand, if you have a scan saying that the beyonder’s power is beyond the LT ability to understand then I will call these a draw but unless you have that …
Because of this statement from the comic: The brothers "encompassed the whole of Reality", in BOTH Marvel and DC which means EVERYTHING in the marvel universe, beyonders realm too.
Originally posted by leonidas
there is a difference between not existing, and not being introduced. obviously just because something wasn't introduced, does not mean is didn't exist prior to its introdcution.
As you wish.
Originally posted by leonidas
it's also clear that the new universe ALREADY had a history unto itslef when it was introduced.
What other Comic Book did the New Universe have before this one which was Published in November 1986?
Originally posted by h1a8
Thats exactly what I was saying leonidas.My post said:
"But Mr. Master, how do you know the New Universe didn't exist prior to 1986? Is it because it wasn't introduce before 1986? If that is the case then using the same logic Beyonder didn't exist before he was introduced either. Same is with Galactus. I guess Galactus isn't old as the 616 universe after all.
Please answer the following questions:Do you believe now (2007) that the Beyonder's realm is inside the Marvel Multiverse (which includes the new universe)?
If so, would that then make him under the jurisdiction of the Brothers [B]now
?" [/B]
This was addressed thoroughly,
now I see you ignored my reply and decided to post your opinion again. 😉
Originally posted by Utrigita
Mr M I think that we can reach the conclusion that we will NEVER agree about this topic, now back on topic.One of the foundemantionelly problems we face in these discussion both of us is the time difference you are basing your fact on a comic book from 1984-1986 while I base my facts on a ten years later basic.
I fail to see the difference in a reconnect that lasted four month to one that lasted 2 years the only reason for these is that marvel probably is getting faster in reconnecting something they find out is out of order.
Know it is my turn to say something about the secrets wars, you misread I wasn’t referring to Secret Wars I but II which you thought, and true the erasing of death exist in a pro BUT there the Greater Powers (death included) tricked beyonder in a way so the thought that he had erased death.
On of the early questions was, Can LT do anything against beyonder you reply was no, but that isn’t true: for different reasons.
LT being one of the only beings to constantly having Relative Omnipotence Omniscience Omnipresence, from these facts I can conclude that he knows that Death will be erased and that beyonder will remake her again. Another Fact is that with death gone he cannot kill beyonder as beyonder in theory shouldn’t be able to kill anything like MM couldn’t kill a rose.
The last fact: You said yourself that LT job is to ensure the cosmic balance, but if just one of his three heads disagrees then LT is in fact powerless, and again I must referee to the oldest law in the universe. SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, and beyonder was stronger than death, but still wasn’t so powerful that he could erase her with a gesture, he had to give up some of his own energy.The Brothers on the other hand was shown to possess powers that was beyond the LT ability to understand, if you have a scan saying that the beyonder’s power is beyond the LT ability to understand then I will call these a draw but unless you have that …
Because of this statement from the comic: The brothers "encompassed the whole of Reality", in BOTH Marvel and DC which means EVERYTHING in the marvel universe, beyonders realm too.
Oh and just a last tiny little detail rather laughable really, you last scan says, THE NEAR OMNIPOTENTE, now The Brothers was FULLY omnipotente. Laughable
Originally posted by Mr Master
As you wish.What other Comic Book did the New Universe have before this one which was Published in November 1986?
no other comics, but references and even some flashbacks were made in different titles to events that PRECEDED the intro to the NU. are you saying that the CHARACTERS in the NU are not allowed to have any history because the NU wasn't shown until 1986 . . .? 😕
if they ARE allowed history, then how can you say there was no NU? where did they develop their histories?
Originally posted by Utrigita
Oh and just a last tiny little detail rather laughable really, you last scan says, THE NEAR OMNIPOTENTE, now The Brothers was FULLY omnipotente. Laughable
excerpt from Official Hanbook of the Marvelk Universe v5 (2006)
This is from Death's Bio of 2006 concerning POST-Retcon Beyonder.
18 YEARS after the Original Beyonder was DEPOWERED!
Who's Laughing now?
😆
The brothers were sums of their respective multiverses and on panel appearred more impressive than the Beyonder.
Beyonder has a handful of feats arguably the IG could pull off and a contradicted caption saying he has the power of a million multiverses. 😬
Mediocre feats + Hyperbole= The Death of the Beyonder 🙂
Originally posted by Mr MasterIt does say near-Omnipotent.
excerpt from Official Hanbook of the Marvelk Universe v5 (2006)This is from Death's Bio of 2006 concerning POST-Retcon Beyonder.
18 YEARS after the Original Beyonder was DEPOWERED!
Who's Laughing now?
😆
It also refers to Death in the Universal sense. So if we are to believe that handbook excerpt, Beyonder only erased Universal Death, not Multi-Death.
Originally posted by Galan007
It does say near-Omnipotent.It also refers to Death in the Universal sense. So if we are to believe that handbook excerpt, Beyonder only erased Universal Death, not Multi-Death.
Ive been telling you ALLLLLLL that since this Beyonder campaign started last year.
Beyonder went through a retcon, Death did NOT. 🙂
Guess what that means? 😖hifty:
Originally posted by leonidas
no other comics, but references and even some flashbacks were made in different titles to events that PRECEDED the intro to the NU.
"Other Comics"
What "Other Comics?"
Originally posted by leonidas
are you saying that the CHARACTERS in the NU are not allowed to have any history because the NU wasn't shown until 1986 . . .? 😕
Guess you'll just have to stay 😕
cause yes, the New Universe did NOT have a History until November 1986.
Just Like Spiderman did NOT have a History till Amazing Fantasy #15 was published.
Aswell as the Hulk until Hulk #01 and on and on...
Originally posted by leonidas
if they ARE allowed history, then how can you say there was no NU?
You're the one that's saying the New Universe had a 'prior" History to D.P.7 #01.
So I'll say it Again,
The New Universe DID NOT have a History and DID NOT EXIST, until Nov. 1986
Originally posted by leonidas
where did they develop their histories?
Obviously.
They developed their Histories in Issue #01, where else.
Here are a few Scans of Humans (the Prime Heroes) freaking out cause they woke up with Powers in the New Universe:
Originally posted by Galan007
It does say near-Omnipotent.
And WHO said it didn't?
Originally posted by Galan007
It also refers to Death in the Universal sense. So if we are to believe that handbook excerpt, Beyonder only erased Universal Death, not Multi-Death.
Bios aren't perfect, we take what happened On Panel and if the Bio corresponds with what happened ON Panel,
we except it.
If the Bio has information that did NOT take place On Panel,
then we do NOT except it.
Here are TWO examples:
Ultimate Nullifier bio
(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2006)
"Magus had captured Adam Warlock and Six Infinity Gems"
"Quasar aimed the weapon at Magus, but Magus obtained the SIX Infinity Gems together as the Infinity Gauntlet, he used the that power to turn the UN back on Quasar"
We know this ISN'T true, Magus had 5 Infinity Gems (an Incomplete Gauntlet).
Abraxas Bio
(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2006)
"Abraxas sought the Ultimate Nullifier to ASSIST him in destroying Galactuses through out the Multi-verse"
That's also not true, all the Galactuses Abraxas killed, were murdered WAY Before he got his hands on the UN.
In fact, Abraxas was never even going to activate the UN.
Originally posted by Mr MasterRight, but the official Bio on Death (that you just provided), contradicts what you have always tried to defend.
Bios aren't perfect, we take what happened On Panel and if the Bio corresponds with what happened ON Panel,we except it.
If the Bio has information that did NOT take place On Panel,
then we do NOT except it.
The Bio says that Beyonder erasing Death only effected one Universe, not a Multiverse.
So if Bios 'aren't always perfect', then why would you use it to debate with that dude?
Originally posted by Galan007
Right, but the official Bio on Death (that you just provided), contradicts what you have always tried to defend.The Bio says that Beyonder erasing Death only effected one Universe, not a Multiverse.
Actually it reads,
"would ruin THE Universe" (which can easily mean the Marvel Universe=a Multiverse at the time)
NOT "One" Universe.
No where does it say "One Universe"
Originally posted by Galan007
So if Bios 'aren't always perfect', then why would you use it to debate with that dude?
Because the Part that did take place ON PANEL, is mentioned.
Death getting ERASED.
Beyonder was Ret-conned, but NOT the Feat of Erasing Death.
And ON PANEL it's Multiversal Death. (On Panel>Bio)
Originally posted by Mr MasterCome on...
Actually it reads,"would ruin THE Universe" (which can easily mean the Marvel Universe=a Multiverse at the time)
NOT "One" Universe.
No where does it say "One Universe"
If they meant Beyonder erasing Death affected the Multiverse, the writers certainly would have written such pertinent information in the Bio. (and not left such a decision for the readers to decide)
It was only meant to be one universe (singular), in the Bio.
Anyone can see this just by how it was written.
Originally posted by Mr Master
"Other Comics"What "Other Comics?"
Guess you'll just have to stay 😕
cause yes, the New Universe did NOT have a History until November 1986.
Just Like Spiderman did NOT have a History till Amazing Fantasy #15 was published.
Aswell as the Hulk until Hulk #01 and on and on...
You're the one that's saying the New Universe had a 'prior" History to D.P.7 #01.
So I'll say it Again,
The New Universe DID NOT have a History and DID NOT EXIST, until Nov. 1986
Obviously.
They developed their Histories in Issue #01, where else.
Here are a few Scans of Humans (the Prime Heroes) freaking out cause they woke up with Powers in the New Universe:
your claim is illogical.
you claim beyonder's realm was everything outside the marvel multiverse. are you saying that it was not ALWAYS that way? that it was essentially 'created' at the instance it was introduced?? that makes no logical sense at all and raises so many questions that it is pointless to raise them. in the case of the beyonder's realm, it existed in the marvel universe for who-knows-how-long. it simply wasn't introduced to readers until the secret wars.
we never saw the 'creation' of the NU in DP7 -- we were 'introduced' to a pre-existing universe. it requires suspension of disbelief. the characters of the NU -- like ANY universe not SHOUWN to have been newly created -- come complete with pre-existing histories. how do they GAIN those pre-existing histories if their universe never previously existed.
😕 indeed . . .
