Bane(with Orbalisks) versus Shimrra

how about you realize that wasn't my focal argument? The fact is: Shimrra is bigger and stronger than Bane. And Jacen observes he's never in the place that's attacked

Passages would be nice. Really LS, I don’t have the time, or the inclination to spend my cash on a poorly written series of books, and sift through it just to find out what Jacen thinks. The thing is, if you want convince me, provide the actual passage or get someone else to do it. I have done so whenever you’ve asked.

I don't feel like arguing with your grasp of English right now

Neither I with yours.

That's his speed. Lovely. The average VOng has been shown moving that fast. Now, anything else?

And now is the time I kindly ask: prove up. Fast enough that time seemed to “stop.” At speeds comparable to DE Luke and Sids that Bane was moving? I need a passage.

Again: Average Vong speed.

And now is the time I kindly ask: prove up.

I am not going with your hearsay. It’s been wrong in numerous instances.

Bane needed the force to survive something average Vong warriors get up from??

Um, perhaps you didn’t realize that was him without the orbalisks?

Irrelevant misdirection. Luke>Bane by a huge margin and Bane cnanot replicate the circumstances

Wow, did I say Luke wasn’t greater than Bane? Well I would recommend you putting on your spectacles because I mentioned Luke was exhausted when he entered the battle.

Far more experience? Jacen is the strongest person in the NJO except for Luke and Kyp at that point, bar none.

Show me how far behind he is in terms of skill. Luke could be a force god, while Kyp and Jacen trail far behind by NJO.

His force lightning reduces people to bones,

And? Bane can use the force to reduce people in mushy liquid, bone included. He can collapse the foundations of the great Rakatan temple despite being severely wounded and fatigued.

and bring down a minor mountain/caver with the Force.

Big deal, Bane could move a moon easily the size of earth as in BOTS. Obviously it was not ret conned because he had to be in Dxun to get the orbalisks.

Jacen>Bane.

Just for laughs, right?

You're obviously not aware of simple things like 'logic'

You are being illogical when you say that. Use some logic.

When Bane can block a thrown dagger in midair, kill the wielder and engage two Jedi before the dagger even hits the ground...oh, and that's an AVERAGE Vong warrior.

Other than the fact that DK emphasizes Bane’s movement as being so fast that time seemed to stop while he was making his attacks? This being without the orbalisks adding further speed and strength enhancing reagents.

Dodge it? He's going to dodge something he can't even sense and that goes with that speed and distance?

Prove up. If an exhausted Luke was able to dodge these things, then I can easily imagine a full power BOTS Bane also dodging them.

Bane will die if the venom hits him.

Somehow I don’t see that happening given Bane’s speed and his armour.

[B]I want some proof

Um, what do you think the passage I gave you was, it was from PoD.

this is an inkling of power the Yuuzhan Vong overlord can summon.

Great, now care to prove. Instead of just stating things, maybe offering passages would be the smart thing to do. If you can’t then it would be me trusting you on your memory. I want actual passages.

Oh, and maybe you're unaware of basic biology, but swing a blunt instrument into the back of someone's leg when you're as physically strong as Bane is already.

What the **** are you talking about? It said he channeled the force through his muscles and limbs, and with a flick of his write, he splintered the bones in Sirak’s legs. If he used his full strength, Sirak could have easily been cut in two.

When we saw people killed by razor bugs, it was as if they were suddenly dead and the Vong suddenly had their arms outsetched.

As per whose reference? If we are talking about Bane who has a lot of combat training as well adrenaline improving his reflexes and awareness, then it is obviously not as fast.

And if Shimrra throws a LOT of them as Vong tend to? It'll only take one to seriously injure Baney

Right because Bane can’t bring tree’s down on top of, or hurl a boulder at Shimrra to prevent from doing any of these things. He isn’t going to stand their WAITING for Shimrra to throw them at him. After the first one strikes his armour, he is going to move in and engage Shimrra in a duel, most likely winning.

He can't use the Force in any which way against Shimrra. He can't sense a thing, he can't use any powers on him and all Shimrra needs to do is hold his weapons at a ready position or twitch his hand. When Vong threw a razorbug...it was sudden. The very motions weren't even detected. So, we have something travelling with at least the speed of a bullet against Bane who hasn't demonstrated greater speeds than the Vong. Point here?

I can’t help but question your position that Bane has not demonstrated greater speed than the Vong lightsnake? He was traveling at speeds equivalent to DE Luke and Sidious and was moving so fast that it seemed “time stopped” for an instance. (POD)

If you'd get your head out of the clouds, you'd see that was an average Vong vcapable of that...and one of those Jedi still fell to that average Vong...one of those Jedi was Jacen Solo himself

Again, from evidence alone I don’t see Jacen by NJO being greater than Bane.

Like you moronically assume Shim'll stand there and let Bane assault him?

Then we are both making moronic assumptions. I say we ease down. They are both going to be doing their little projectile attacks, but I imagine that Bane will use the force to indirectly hurl objects at Shimm at great speeds. Shimm will try something, but I doubt he is going to hit Bane, a person who moved so fast that it seemed time stopped, on the exact right spot. He could also theoretically collapse a large structure against Shimm, given his previous displays of telekinesis and “force energy blasts.” If that fails, he can engage Shimm and try and disembowel him.

btw, prove those orbalisks will stop sometihng that can slice through solid stone and durasteel. Or melt durasteel.

He knocked the hard shell aside, then slapped at another sailing barnacle with his lightsaber. Amazingly, though it ricocheted away, the encrustation was not destroyed by the energy blade.

It can resist a lightsaber blade, which can easily do much of the same things as what the staff was described to be capable of, especially if the wielder puts sufficient enough strength behind his swings.

Or explode with the force of a thermal detonator.

First we would have to assume that Shimrra will get time to launch this onto Bane. If he did, Bane could use the force to pincushion the resulting concussive force. Mixed with his regenerative properties, I would say he could regenerate rather quickly.

won't have a choice if it's too fast for him and he can't sense it

His adrenaline helps him become hyperaware. With hundreds of these creatures on his body continually pumping the substance into Bane, he can easily have the reflexes to anticipate that something is coming at him fast, and react.

Without injury? Somehow I doubt this

Obviously not, but small enough that the orbalisks can heal them without too much difficulty

Why? He knew his moves. Bane could sense him. Bane's power in the darkside outmatched Kas'im's
He has not a one of those advantages here

Not all of it was based on force precognition either. Some of the complex sequences Kas’im unleashed on him initially, he parried. He did this before he let the force overwhelm him.

That's all I hear from you. the force does not augment one's strength to SHimrra's level, 1, Bane's NATURAL STRENGTH is LESS than a Yuuzhan Vong politician...how much is he augmented now?

Well seeing as how Bane can “channel the force into his muscles” and a Vong can’t I’d already give him an advantage.

My point is, which you don’t seem to be getting, is that Bane uses both the force and the orbalisks to augment his strength and speed. He can keep up with Shimrra who is relying on his species speed and some nifty equipment he has as a Vong. Add in the hundred or more Orbalisks pumping adrenaline into him, and he is aware enough to track Shimrra’s movements.

Maybe you need to get fof your lazy little ass and read the NJO because you know shit about what you're trying to talk about.

No thx. Don’t really have the inclination or the time to read a couple hundred pages of poorly written material.

Can he move so fast to elude top Jedi masters and slaughter numerous opponents at once?

He can move that fast, sure. His speed was too much for Kas’im, which sent him scurrying initially, and the extra adrenaline can substitute for his force senses anyways.

Can he kill one of the strongest races in the galaxy barehanded?

With all the strength and adrenaline being pumped into him with the force augmenting his strength, yes.

Can he deflect a knife, kill its wielder and then engage Jacen Solo and Ganner Rhysode, defeating one before the knife even falls?

I would assume Ganner, according to these sources, was a joke.

"[...]this was Ganner Rhysode, the weakling who could not even mount the causeway. Ganner Rhysode who got no respect from the other Jedi. Ganner the poser, the playactor. The joke."

"Make this weak, pathetic excuse for a Jedi get on with this sacrifice[...] (dialogue)

Everyone has to lie for me, he thought. Everyone has to pretend I'm not as pathetic and useless and weak as I really am...Sick of being a crappy Jedi, a mediocre pilot, and a bloody lousy leader of men. Sick of being a joke. Just sick." (Traitor, Chapter 13

So in short, quite easily. He would definitely own Rhysode.

Yeah, Bane's strong, but keep a realistic grasp of his strength!

Bane pretty much snapped through bone with a mere flick of his wrist. And this was without the adrenaline or his connection to the force further explored as it was in BOTS. Improved force strength necessitates towards greater physical prowess, otherwise according to your strange evidence, Yoda could never lift such heavy guns on his back. With all things accounted for, I am keeping a realistic grasp of his strength. I feel you are downplaying it.

Wow, in your opinion, maybe. Maybe you should use some logic because you're doing nothing more than saying it's so because you say so

Hardly Lightsnake. Bane has hundreds of orbalisks pumping adrenaline and strength into him constantly. Do you know the amount of physical strength that generates? It’s easily enough for him to lift a car. That and with him channeling the “force through his muscles” he is going to be as strong as Shimrra.

Probably because two canon sources call him the strongest in history and a source directly calls him the strongest in over a thousand years! Canon has spoken.

Yeah right…even though I have disagreements, I think it is ridiculous to assume that even by your standards this would equate to ROTS Sidious taking down Exar Kun and Bane at once.. Puhleaze.

Judging to the omniscient narrarator, he was a storm of power in Traitor and one of the most powerful of the New Jedi Order save Luke himself

And Kyp you mean? What he has shown at his max during traitor is not on the level of Bane’s powers during BOTS.

I have proven up! I've given examples for Shimrra's INFERIORS matching Bane's superiors! We've seen Force Lightning BEND AWAY from the Vong! Edge of Destiny directly stated lightning and crushes had no effect on them. Wow...keep dreaming

Lol. Where did I ever state Bane is going to use conventional force attacks. Get those glasses out Ls.

because, you hypocrite, the average Vong have shown raw physical strength above Bane.

More than Bane should have theoretically with hundreds of Orbalisks pumping adrenaline and strength constantly, with him channeling the force through his “muscles? Get real.

show me Bane's incredible strength or you know something?

Take some basic understanding of biology Snake. Constantly having adrenaline pumping enhances natural strength dramatically, but having hundreds of organisms pumping that and “strength” at once is massive. Add force strength into the equation, and you got it.

Shut up. That's right. Shut up.

Roflmao. Real mature, lightsnake, getting into another temper tantrum? Your whining is grating on me.

You go oh and on about Bane's power, but the most he did with the force augmenting him? He....broke Sirak's leg.

Lol nice try downplaying Bane’s strength. The movement was a relaxed snap of the wrist that shattered through bones and forced them through muscle and skin. Regardless, I wasn’t even trying to prove this by PoD. I was stating BOTS Bane, who’s powers in the force have already increased exponentially.

And Shimrra overwhelmed the best duelist ever.

Oh yes, after the said duelist was exhausted from battle. Ridiculous. I guess you forgot that.

You want to ***** about it? Well, guess what: Bane was able to do so due to his knowledge of Kas'im's moves..."

Oh my… I suppose you forget that Kas’im was training Bane hence he also possessed a knowledge of Bane’s moves. In fact, they were both surprised at how good the other was.

Which...won't help him against Shimrra since a lot of fighting witht he force is sensing your opponent. Bane has to leaern in minutes what Jedi had to learn in years.

I said that Bane had a chance to learn more about Shimrra’s technology, to eliminate the element of surprise.

, become one with the FOrce in entirety....

So, Rhysode was also able to accomplish a similar feat. When he does not do that, he is still a weakling. Jacen was not one with the force when Shimrra smashed him aside.

Good thing Shim's not using a saber

I am fairly sure that a staff is not going to break through his armour when a lightsaber couldn’t.

Bane can cushion himself from something a Vong would just get up from? He's so strong compared to them!

Not arguing that Bane alone is stronger than a normal Vong alone. But with his armour and the force augmenting his strength, he is.

All Shimrra needs to do is put a hand on Bane's head and squeeze

Right, I am sure he does. More like all Bane would do is rush in and disembowel Shimrra like a tasty piggy!

Whine, whine, whine

This could summarize a majority of your posts quite nicely. 😛 (j/k)

Irrelevance in entirety. You haven't read NJO so you argue from ignorance.

True. I do admit that I am at a disadvantage here because I haven't read the books. But I still have information from databank and a host of other sites that provide adequate amounts of general information.

Now, you stop being insulting and I'll do the same

I was waiting when you’d say that. 😉 Really, I don’t like being an unpleasant guy, but when someone provokes, its hard to resist on an internet forum 😛

Originally posted by zephiel7
Passages would be nice. Really LS, I don’t have the time, or the inclination to spend my cash on a poorly written series of books, and sift through it just to find out what Jacen thinks. The thing is, if you want convince me, provide the actual passage or get someone else to do it. I have done so whenever you’ve asked.

Um, perhaps you didn’t realize that was him [b]without the orbalisks?

Wow, did I say Luke wasn’t greater than Bane? Well I would recommend you putting on your spectacles because I mentioned Luke was exhausted when he entered the battle.

Show me how far behind he is in terms of skill. Luke could be a force god, while Kyp and Jacen trail far behind by NJO.

And? Bane can use the force to reduce people in mushy liquid, bone included. He can collapse the foundations of the great Rakatan temple despite being severely wounded and fatigued.

Big deal, Bane could move a moon easily the size of earth as in BOTS. Obviously it was not ret conned because he had to be in Dxun to get the orbalisks.

Just for laughs, right?

Other than the fact that DK emphasizes Bane’s movement as being so fast that time seemed to stop while he was making his attacks? This being without the orbalisks adding further speed and strength enhancing reagents.

Prove up. If an exhausted Luke was able to dodge these things, then I can easily imagine a full power BOTS Bane also dodging them. [/B]

Originally posted by zephiel7
Somehow I don’t see that happening given Bane’s speed and his armour.

Obviously not, but small enough that the orbalisks can heal them without too much difficulty

Hm... I am beginning to see how Shimrra could possibly defeat Bane. So he nearly defeated Luke, eh?

Anyways, give Bane the vongseed and he'd own the bastard. 😛

I'll give you this one since I've never read the NJO (I am not going to start either.) If I by some miracle I do...

Terminator voice: I'll be back.

*Offers hand to shake*

😉

Originally posted by zephiel7
Not all of it was based on force precognition either. Some of the complex sequences Kas’im unleashed on him initially, he parried. He did this before he let the force overwhelm him.

I would assume Ganner, according to these sources, was a joke.

"[...]this was Ganner Rhysode, [b]the weakling who could not even mount the causeway. Ganner Rhysode who got no respect from the other Jedi. Ganner the poser, the playactor. The joke."

"Make this weak, pathetic excuse for a Jedi get on with this sacrifice[...] (dialogue)

Everyone has to lie for me, he thought. Everyone has to pretend I'm not as pathetic and useless and weak as I really am...Sick of being a crappy Jedi, a mediocre pilot, and a bloody lousy leader of men. Sick of being a joke. Just sick." (Traitor, Chapter 13

So in short, quite easily. He would definitely own Rhysode. [/Quote
Not at the end of Traitor he wouldn't

[Quote]
Bane pretty much snapped through bone with a mere flick of his wrist. And this was without the adrenaline or his connection to the force further explored as it was in BOTS. Improved force strength necessitates towards greater physical prowess, otherwise according to your strange evidence, Yoda could never lift such heavy guns on his back. With all things accounted for, I am keeping a realistic grasp of his strength. I feel you are downplaying it.

Hardly Lightsnake. Bane has hundreds of orbalisks pumping adrenaline and strength into him constantly. Do you know the amount of physical strength that generates? It’s easily enough for him to lift a car. That and with him channeling the “force through his muscles” he is going to be as strong as Shimrra.

Yeah right…even though I have disagreements, I think it is ridiculous to assume that even by your standards this would equate to ROTS Sidious taking down Exar Kun and Bane at once.. Puhleaze.

And Kyp you mean? What he has shown at his max during traitor is not on the level of Bane’s powers during BOTS.

Lol. Where did I ever state Bane is going to use conventional force attacks. Get those glasses out Ls.

More than Bane should have theoretically with hundreds of Orbalisks pumping adrenaline and strength constantly, with him channeling the force through his “muscles? Get real.

Take some basic understanding of biology Snake. Constantly having adrenaline pumping enhances natural strength dramatically, but having hundreds of organisms pumping that and “strength” at once is massive. Add force strength into the equation, and you got it.

Lol nice try downplaying Bane’s strength. The movement was a relaxed snap of the wrist that shattered through bones and forced them through muscle and skin. Regardless, I wasn’t even trying to prove this by PoD. I was stating BOTS Bane, who’s powers in the force have already increased exponentially.

Oh yes, after the said duelist was exhausted from battle. Ridiculous. I guess you forgot that.

Oh my I suppose you forget that Kas’im was training Bane hence he also possessed a knowledge of Bane’s moves. In fact, they were both surprised at how good the other was.

I said that Bane had a chance to learn more about Shimrra’s technology, to eliminate the element of surprise.

So, Rhysode was also able to accomplish a similar feat. When he does not do that, he is still a weakling. Jacen was not one with the force when Shimrra smashed him aside.

I am fairly sure that a staff is not going to break through his armour when a lightsaber couldn’t.

Not arguing that Bane alone is stronger than a normal Vong alone. But with his armour and the force augmenting his strength, he is.

Right, I am sure he does. More like all Bane would do is rush in and disembowel Shimrra like a tasty piggy!

True. I do admit that I am at a disadvantage here because I haven't read the books. But I still have information from databank and a host of other sites that provide adequate amounts of general information.

And yeah, Bane did almost beat Luke...he cage him in and wound his amphistaff around him, onstricting him. He stopped to use the lightsaber because he wanted Luke to suffer the pain his 'own warriors felt, forced to fight against living ships of Sekot.'

P.S: About the BoTS thing, it would only make sense to retcon the parts that directly contradict PoD. From what I've seen they are few and far between to even consider.

Regardless, he could have still learned a host of different things from Nadd's holocron. Obviously he needed a way to get back to Onderon once he got the Orbalisks, considering the two bodies drifted apart for thousands of years. He would have needed to use the force to nudge them together.

Originally posted by zephiel7
P.S: About the BoTS thing, it would only make sense to retcon the parts that directly contradict PoD. From what I've seen they are few and far between to even consider.

Regardless, he could have still learned a host of different things from Nadd's holocron. Obviously he needed a way to get back to Onderon once he got the Orbalisks, considering the two bodies drifted apart for thousands of years. He would have needed to use the force to nudge them together.

You have to understand that it's MORE than likely that Nadd's holocron doesn't even exist, considering it contradicts POD directly with the rule of two and all the ancient sith wisdom. His orbalisks are canon thanks to legacy but that's about the only thing that is.

1. If Bane has no knowledge on Shimrra, then the fight will be hard, but he'll still win; his orbalisk armour would give him the time he would need to realise that his best bet would be to use an indirect attack - a storm of force lightning would suffice.

2. If Bane knows everything about Shimrra, he wins very easily; he moves faster than Shimrra can see/react to, cuts through his field nerve cables thereby negating the entire armour, and then cuts him in two.

Someone said that lightning bends away from Vong. Not saying that it is so, I just wonder if it is correct.

I don't know, I haven't seen a source for that, and really, it doesn't make sense at all; there's no reason why a Vong would be physically affected by a lightsaber, but not lightning. However, a force crush should do the trick, or collapsing the ground beneath Shimrra.

Of course lightning bends away from the Vong, consider them like large ysalamiri. It's a force attack. Only lightning that works is emerald lightning.

Bloody hell, a force crush doesn't work on the Vong...and since when has a Force User collapsed the ground beneath someone?

Yeah, it would be a hellofalot of ground to break to actually make an impact. Something tells me no one is gonna stand and wait for something like that to happen...

Bane has beastly physical strength, but Shimrra has more. Same goes for speed. We all saw what happened when Bane fought against a new lightsaber style, he got his ass kicked. Against someone who physically outclasses him with a style he never could have thought of, who he can't attack with the force, or even sense, and has the skill to take on NJO Luke... Bane dies.

Force Crush would not work! If you can't fling Yuuzhan Vong around with a push or a pull, then you're not going to crush them by the same method!

Likewise, the Force is meant to be a subtle thing. At the most, we have people flinging lightning and energy bolts and knocking people flat with thrown objects or picking them up and flinging the person themselves.

We have instances where it goes beyond this- such as the manipulation of solar flares and stars- but that is with the aid of special equipment.

Otherwise, you don't really see people performing feats such as 'obliterating the ground beneath them!' What are they, Earth Benders from Avatar? Sorcerers from fantasy novels? No.

Lightning may work against the Vong, as I recall it being explained as the Force manipulating particles in the air, rather than a manifestation of the Force itself. I don't know if it's been attempted on any Vong, though, other than Luke's green death, so don't quote me.

Doesn't force crush, force push and all of those powers work by pushing the air particles towards your opponent at really high speeds?

And Rex: Bane, Luke, Kyp, Revan and Sidious as well as a few others have all displayed that kind of power without amulets and technology, and considering Bane was able to collapse the entire 20 foot tall Rakatan Temple with an attack, collapsing the ground beneath Shimrra wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Bane has beastly physical strength, but Shimrra has more.

Even if he has more, it's not by much. Bane was 'a mountain of muscle', was trained to use the force to augment his physical strength, was damn strong with the force, and thus could do this to great effect, and on top of all that, his orbalisk armour constantly keeps his muscles pumping and flexed, as well as strengthened, and the adrenaline and darkside energies constantly pumped into his body would make him all the more stronger. I highly doubt that Shimrra was even stronger period, and even if he is, it's not by much.

Same goes for speed.

Are you crazy? We've already been through this. Bane was able to move at speeds faster than the eyes of trained force users could see; so fast that it seemed like time had stopped for everyone else, and he was able to do it at the end of a long and tiring duel. This is before BotS, where he grows about ten times stronger with the force (the extent of force speed and strength in the force are pretty much directly proportional), and gains the orbalisk armour, which constantly pumps him with adrenaline, as well as darkside energies, and constantly strengthens his muscles, which would make him much faster.

We all saw what happened when Bane fought against a new lightsaber style, he got his ass kicked.

Against Kas'im... Kas'im is pretty much the best lightsaber duelist ever, his mastery is too damn high for him to not have used Bane's disadvantage against an unfamiliar form against him, and this was before Bane grew much more powerful. It makes sense that Kas'im would have kicked his ass, in that situation, and he would have done the same to Luke.

Against someone who physically outclasses him

False.

with a style he never could have thought of,

Means little if Bane just uses his superior skill to not allow Shimrra to use his weapon, and overpowers him in seconds.

who he can't attack with the force,

He can attack indirectly, and still use the force to augment his abilities.

or even sense,

He can still use precognition.

and has the skill to take on NJO Luke... Bane dies.

Lumiya performed better against a stronger Luke under similar conditions. Can she defeat Bane? Is she even uber? Almost beating an exhausted and wounded Luke with every advantage there is on your side is really not that impressive; Bane would have tooled Luke in that position.