Metal

Started by Bardiel137 pages

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How many times do I honestly have to tell you that it's explained in the TWO quotes I just gave you? It's not a concept that has examples, it's a much wider idea than that. It's not specific to A band.

I never said it with an example in mind because that's not how the point works. Not sure how you're having trouble understanding it, and I can't say it any simpler than I already have, twice.

"Claiming metal as innovative because of something it ISN'T doing, but another genre DID, that's stealing.".

"I consider it negAtive that a genre, at its heart, is so dull and boring that it has to steal from others, and in many cases it is as good as stealing, because there's only so much that "metal" can be influenced by until it stops being metal, but metal fans still claim it as their own, which it isn't.".

-AC

All you're saying is "Metal steals from other genres." Alright. How do they do it?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
All you're saying is "Metal steals from other genres." Alright. How do they do it?

It's in the two quotes that I have just posted multiple times.

Are you ignoring them on purpose?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's in the two quotes that I have just posted multiple times.

Are you ignoring them on purpose?

-AC

You quotes don't say anything other than "Metal steals from other genres." What is it stealing? Why is it considered stealing? You still have not answered these questions.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You quotes don't say anything other than "Metal steals from other genres." What is it stealing? Why is it considered stealing? You still have not answered these questions.

There's a cut-off point when it goes from misunderstanding to purposeful ignorance, but I'll indulge you one last time.

"Claiming metal as innovative because of something it ISN'T doing, but another genre DID, that's stealing.".

Metal fans being so deluded and having such a sense of entitlement, metal musicians too mostly, that they make music that can hardly be considered metal and still say "Yeah we're metal.". As a result, metal is miscredited for other genres flavours.

Eg; if you claimed Opeth were 100% metal, you would be stealing credit from other genres, as would the band, but they'd not do that. You want metal to have this appearance of being ultra diverse, but it's not. There's a point when it stops becoming "metal".

"I consider it negAtive that a genre, at its heart, is so dull and boring that it has to steal from others, and in many cases it is as good as stealing, because there's only so much that 'metal' can be influenced by until it stops being metal, but metal fans still claim it as their own, which it isn't.".

As explained there.

-AC

Metal fans being so deluded and having such a sense of entitlement, metal musicians too mostly, that they make music that can hardly be considered metal and still say "Yeah we're metal.". As a result, metal is miscredited for other genres flavours.

Eg; if you claimed Opeth were 100% metal, you would be stealing credit from other genres, as would the band, but they'd not do that. You want metal to have this appearance of being ultra diverse, but it's not. There's a point when it stops becoming "metal".

I never claimed Opeth were 100% metal. Are they a metal band? In many of their albums. Are they just "metal." Hell no. Hey, you're the one wanting every genre to be referred under one name. So, what genre would you put them under that would define their style?

"I consider it negAtive that a genre, at its heart, is so dull and boring that it has to steal from others, and in many cases it is as good as stealing, because there's only so much that 'metal' can be influenced by until it stops being metal, but metal fans still claim it as their own, which it isn't.".

Since you can't take a hint from "please elaborate", I'll be more direct. Please highlight the sentence in the above quote, describing what, exactly, metal steals from genres.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I never claimed Opeth were 100% metal. Are they a metal band? In many of their albums. Are they just "metal." Hell no. Hey, you're the one wanting every genre to be referred under one name. So, what genre would you put them under that would define their style?

A) I never said you did.

B) That isn't what I want, and evidently you only read what you want to read. I've said that some of the sub-genres have technical legitimacy. You create genre tags because "It has this, and this, so it must be this." and as I said previously, 2 + 3 is not 23 simply because both numbers appear in the written form.

Metal with folk doesn't need to be called "folk metal" because of that.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Since you can't take a hint from "please elaborate", I'll be more direct. Please highlight the sentence in the above quote, describing what, exactly, metal steals from genres.

You bolded it in your reply, how many more times? Are you honestly that simple?

"Metal fans being so deluded and having such a sense of entitlement, metal musicians too mostly, that they make music that can hardly be considered metal and still say 'Yeah we're metal.'. As a result, metal is miscredited for other genres flavours.

Eg; if you claimed Opeth were 100% metal, you would be stealing credit from other genres, as would the band, but they'd not do that. You want metal to have this appearance of being ultra diverse, but it's not. There's a point when it stops becoming 'metal'.".

There, ALL of that.

If you still do not get it, then I honestly am at a loss as to how to explain it to you, because you're being intentionally ignorant. You are after me typing it in a manner you like, not going to happen.

-AC

Metal with folk doesn't need to be called "folk metal" because of that.

But does it hurt anyon if it is? If someone says "Folk Metal." Can anyone think of anything else than "Folk with metal"? It simply gets the point across.

You bolded it in your reply, how many more times? Are you honestly that simple?

"Metal fans being so deluded and having such a sense of entitlement, metal musicians too mostly, that they make music that can hardly be considered metal and still say 'Yeah we're metal.'. As a result, metal is miscredited for other genres flavours.

Eg; if you claimed Opeth were 100% metal, you would be stealing credit from other genres, as would the band, but they'd not do that. You want metal to have this appearance of being ultra diverse, but it's not. There's a point when it stops becoming 'metal'.".

There, ALL of that.

If you still do not get it, then I honestly am at a loss as to how to explain it to you, because you're being intentionally ignorant. You are after me typing it in a manner you like, not going to happen.

What you're failing to do is explain WHAT IT IS STEALING. Is it style? Because, that would be more influence than actual stealing. All I see is you accusing metal of stealing from genres and blaming the fans for saying they're metal. So what? After all I said, do you still get the idea that I am another rabid bonehead metal elitist? Have I ever seriously held metal higher than any other genre? Have I ever insulted anyone's taste in music? What exactly are you trying to prove to me?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
But does it hurt anyon if it is? If someone says "Folk Metal." Can anyone think of anything else than "Folk with metal"? It simply gets the point across.

Replied to this already via PM.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What you're failing to do is explain WHAT IT IS STEALING. Is it style? Because, that would be more influence than actual stealing. All I see is you accusing metal of stealing from genres and blaming the fans for saying they're metal. So what? After all I said, do you still get the idea that I am another rabid bonehead metal elitist? Have I ever seriously held metal higher than any other genre? Have I ever insulted anyone's taste in music? What exactly are you trying to prove to me?

I told you what it's stealing in the QUOTE, about four times now. Go and read every quote I have posted. I specifically tell you what metal is taking from other genres that does not belong to it.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you, you are asking me to prove why I believe something and I have done so. Whether you expected a different answer I do not know, but my reasons for saying and believing what I do have been explained to you.

If you genuinely do not understand, then as I have said, I can do no more.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I told you what it's stealing in the QUOTE, about four times now. Go and read every quote I have posted. I specifically tell you what metal is taking from other genres that does not belong to it.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you, you are asking me to prove why I believe something and I have done so. Whether you expected a different answer I do not know, but my reasons for saying and believing what I do have been explained to you.

If you genuinely do not understand, then as I have said, I can do no more.

-AC

Alright, I've read it over several times, now. What's the key word? Credit? Are they stealing credit? Because, well... that's a stretch, to say they're 'stealing' it.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Alright, I've read it over several times, now. What's the key word? Credit? Are they stealing credit? Because, well... that's a stretch, to say they're 'stealing' it.

It's not.

steal

1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.

Anything else?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not.

[b]steal

1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.

Anything else?

-AC [/B]

So metal took concepts of other genres without permission...

I am at a loss of words on how truely retarded that sounds (and I use the term sparingly).

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So metal took concepts of other genres without permission...

I am at a loss of words on how truely retarded that sounds (and I use the term sparingly).

So you beg and whine for proof of how it's stealing, I give it, you claim it's a stretch, I prove it's a definition.

So...what? Now it's retarded? It's factually true also.

I suggest you get to grips with that.

Additionally, it was about stealing credit for concepts, ideas, methods. Not stealing the actual concepts themselves. Keep up. Either way, what's gonna happen now? You're not going to accept that I was correct, are you?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You countered a comment everyone, including myself knew was false, because trying to back it up would be silly. You must be so proud. And I'm saying I don't have to build a fortress, because I know when a conversation calls for seriousness and when a little exaggeration for effect is alright. You don't, however.

I do, actually. I just don't buy you saying that the comment you made wasn't serious, because if it was you wouldn't have challenged someone to prove you wrong, you'd have said "I'm joking.". When he denied your claim, you challenged him. When I denied it with proof, you were "joking.".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
It wasn't a belief. Someone challenged it, thinking it was. I half-jokingly replied, curious to see their answer. What's so wrong about that?

Do you not see how bad you are weaselling?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So you honestly think it's more practical to refer to what the majority call folk metal as "metal with some folkish flavor to it." Be reasonable. The point of these genres is to get the point across.

If someone asks me what genre a band are, or what genre an artist is, I simply say "Listen for yourself.". If you or anyone else is the kind of person that will label it upon hearing, I do not need to indulge in stupid labelling. I can do the band justice of saying "Just listen to the music.", and then my part is done. You can do them the injustice of, in many cases, pigeon-holing them.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
In my opinion, folk metal is more practical of a name than death metal or black metal. Sure, they're both defined genres, but the names are ambiguous. Unless you've heard the music before, you don't really know what to expect by name. But, if a non-metal-savvy person hears the words "folk" and "metal" to describe music, what else could they envision?

You're missing the point. I'm not denying that it may get the point across, I'm saying it's not necessarily worthy of its own genre. As I explained to you; The Dillinger Escape Plan, Candiria, these are bands that employ a lot of jazz. Primarily they are metal, and should be called such. They aren't jazz bands because they play jazzy PARTS, just like "folk metal" bands are not folk musicians because they throw parts in. Whatever the music is primarily is what it should be referred to as, that's the truer statement.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Sure, Symphonic Progressive Melodic Black Metal with Folk Influence, might be long and trivial, but that's just it's name broken down by genre influences. It's still black metal. If someone wants to call it that, then deal, man. Don't go picking fights just because you think long genre names are stupid.

I'm not picking fights, stop being a drama queen. Deal with the fact that the reasons you give for many of your tags take fewer shots than a church-attending virgin before they are toppled like the silly arguments they are. They are paper thin.

Anyone seriously using genre names like "funeral doom metal" have no longer got any sense, because they clearly miss the point on why you name a genre.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yet, you go and try to prove to others why they're stupid. Be honest, you're not dealing. If you were, some of our debates wouldn't have existed.

No, you have intolerance to the fact that I can dismantle your genre tag arguments. You cannot do the same for mine. I reduce you to having no more reason to reply than pride.

I accept that you call music whatever you want, I accept everyone will, but I also dislike that. I dislike a lot of things I'd never try to stop, but I will still say they are silly.

YOU need to deal with THAT. If you weren't so melodramatic and childishly defensive of metal, our debates would not occur. If you hadn't made the stupid "joke" claim, we wouldn't, if you hadn't replied to me about the "stealing" claim with such teary-eyed offended nature, we wouldn't.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Guess what: That's miscommunication. You misunderstood my meaning, because my tone of voice could not be applied and my mood could not be portrayed. My context could have been taken however you wanted, regardless of my intention.

It's misrepresentation, not miscommunicaton.

-AC

😐

Good, good.

Now try a post.

-AC

So you beg and whine for proof of how it's stealing, I give it, you claim it's a stretch, I prove it's a definition.

So...what? Now it's retarded? It's factually true also.

I suggest you get to grips with that.

Additionally, it was about stealing credit for concepts, ideas, methods. Not stealing the actual concepts themselves. Keep up. Either way, what's gonna happen now? You're not going to accept that I was correct, are you?

That's not proof. It's your word. I have never heard anything along the lines of any genre of music stealing from another EVER. And suddenly you personify sound like it's the most solid evidence of "theme theft" ever. I've never seen anything about metal stealing credit for concepts, either. Never seen anyone boast about metal being the first genre to use harsh vocals, or sing about vikings, or anything, really. Metal was unfluenced and shaped with many factors. If you're mad at the fans for bragging about these things, you're preaching to the wrong crowd. I don't that and haven't met anyone who has.

I do, actually. I just don't buy you saying that the comment you made wasn't serious, because if it was you wouldn't have challenged someone to prove you wrong, you'd have said "I'm joking.". When he denied your claim, you challenged him. When I denied it with proof, you were "joking.".

What you don't realize is that I WAS joking. I've never held metal above any other genre, before. Why on Earth would I start then? Ask yourself that. Is that in character for me? Or are you still convinced I'm still some elitist kvlt kid from Norway that only listens to metal? You're being biased and thinking only what you'd like to think.

Do you not see how bad you are weaselling?

See: above post.

If someone asks me what genre a band are, or what genre an artist is, I simply say "Listen for yourself.". If you or anyone else is the kind of person that will label it upon hearing, I do not need to indulge in stupid labelling. I can do the band justice of saying "Just listen to the music.", and then my part is done. You can do them the injustice of, in many cases, pigeon-holing them.

Yes, you could say that. And I say that, too at times. But that doesn't make it practical. For instance, if you wanted to look up a certain genre in a music database, you wouldn't get anywhere if everything was described as "listen for yourself."

You're missing the point. I'm not denying that it may get the point across, I'm saying it's not necessarily worthy of its own genre. As I explained to you; The Dillinger Escape Plan, Candiria, these are bands that employ a lot of jazz. Primarily they are metal, and should be called such. They aren't jazz bands because they play jazzy PARTS, just like "folk metal" bands are not folk musicians because they throw parts in. Whatever the music is primarily is what it should be referred to as, that's the truer statement.

So, really it's about preference. You prefer to use ambiguous umbrella terms, while I like to be a little detailed. However the majority doesn't really seem to be as passionate about it as you. Like I said, deal. I'm not going to stop using well-known terms for describing music, just because it makes you uncomfortable.

I'm not picking fights, stop being a drama queen. Deal with the fact that the reasons you give for many of your tags take fewer shots than a church-attending virgin before they are toppled like the silly arguments they are. They are paper thin.

Anyone seriously using genre names like "funeral doom metal" have no longer got any sense, because they clearly miss the point on why you name a genre.

And yet, it still manages to get the point across and no one seems to mind. I guess you'll have to put up with lunacy and anarchy ruling supereme.

No, you have intolerance to the fact that I can dismantle your genre tag arguments. You cannot do the same for mine. I reduce you to having no more reason to reply than pride.

I accept that you call music whatever you want, I accept everyone will, but I also dislike that. I dislike a lot of things I'd never try to stop, but I will still say they are silly.

YOU need to deal with THAT. If you weren't so melodramatic and childishly defensive of metal, our debates would not occur. If you hadn't made the stupid "joke" claim, we wouldn't, if you hadn't replied to me about the "stealing" claim with such teary-eyed offended nature, we wouldn't.

You dismantled by genre tag arguments? Nay, good sir, for I believe they are still going on. It appears it's simply preference. You think it's stupid, I think it's stupid, but in many cases practical. You can't really prove any of them otherwise.
And my "teary-eyed offended nature" was nothing more than curiousity regarding your choice of words. What, you want me to simply label you as a douchebag without figuring out your reasoning?
The thing is, I don't think like you. I don't try to take shit about other peoples' music. When I see people doing it, I like to try to figure out what hostility they have toward it. It's not just metal. I've done the same thing with pop punk, hip hop... This kind of conversation is nothing new to me.

It's misrepresentation, not miscommunicaton.

The miscommuncation caused a misrepresentation of what I was saying.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
That's not proof. It's your word. I have never heard anything along the lines of any genre of music stealing from another EVER. And suddenly you personify sound like it's the most solid evidence of "theme theft" ever. I've never seen anything about metal stealing credit for concepts, either. Never seen anyone boast about metal being the first genre to use harsh vocals, or sing about vikings, or anything, really. Metal was unfluenced and shaped with many factors. If you're mad at the fans for bragging about these things, you're preaching to the wrong crowd. I don't that and haven't met anyone who has.

I knew it. I actually sensed the inability to admit when you have been proven flat out wrong.

Either way, stealing credit that doesn't belong to you is stealing, and I have seen metal take credit that's not its own. As I'm sure many have. If you haven't you're either lying or you're not as into the metal scene as you claim. It happens ESPECIALLY on metal forums.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What you don't realize is that I WAS joking. I've never held metal above any other genre, before. Why on Earth would I start then? Ask yourself that. Is that in character for me? Or are you still convinced I'm still some elitist kvlt kid from Norway that only listens to metal? You're being biased and thinking only what you'd like to think.

Ultimately I take your word for it. It stinks like a rotting fish, though.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
See: above post.

I still see you weaselling, but out of the my word vs your word debate, I have to take your word over your own word. No matter how obvious I believe the contrary is.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yes, you could say that. And I say that, too at times. But that doesn't make it practical. For instance, if you wanted to look up a certain genre in a music database, you wouldn't get anywhere if everything was described as "listen for yourself."

Yes, and why do you think that is? Do you think that having so many genre tags is ENCOURAGING people to just listen to music for what it is? If anything it's limiting people's tastes. I suggested Opeth to a friend, they said "What are they?", I said "Metal". They said "What kind?", now if I had said anything to do with their death metal influence, he would never have listened, cos perception comes first. I just said "Listen.", he did, he loved it. He said "I'd never have tried if you'd described them as death metal.". Do you see my point?

I suppose it's like illegal downloading. I do not deny its positive sides, but I think the negative are far more overwhelming.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So, really it's about preference. You prefer to use ambiguous umbrella terms, while I like to be a little detailed. However the majority doesn't really seem to be as passionate about it as you. Like I said, deal. I'm not going to stop using well-known terms for describing music, just because it makes you uncomfortable.

Do you like saying "deal" because I do? I say it when I suggest you to deal with something. Nothing I've said suggests I want to stop or erase what you and others do, I've explicitly said I accept its existence. So saying "deal" is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And yet, it still manages to get the point across and no one seems to mind. I guess you'll have to put up with lunacy and anarchy ruling supereme.

What's the point of "funeral doom metal" as a tag? If you said that to your average joe, they'd have no f*cking clue what you're on about. You'd have to explain why "funeral" is there, that'd probably turn them away, then doom. As if metal doesn't have enough of a stigma as it is.

So in that case, you are doing what you claim I am. Being way too specific to people who would know these things.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You dismantled by genre tag arguments? Nay, good sir, for I believe they are still going on.

Yeah, for the same reason Bush is still fighting in Iraq.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
It appears it's simply preference. You think it's stupid, I think it's stupid, but in many cases practical. You can't really prove any of them otherwise.

I have, many times. Here:

"What's the point of 'funeral doom metal' as a tag? If you said that to your average joe, they'd have no f*cking clue what you're on about. You'd have to explain why 'funeral' is there, that'd probably turn them away, then 'doom'. As if metal doesn't have enough of a stigma as it is.

So in that case, you are doing what you claim I am. Being way too specific to people who would know these things.".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And my "teary-eyed offended nature" was nothing more than curiousity regarding your choice of words. What, you want me to simply label you as a douchebag without figuring out your reasoning?

Do anything besides taking it as if someone's just told you your grandmother died. It's entirely needless.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
The thing is, I don't think like you. I don't try to take shit about other peoples' music. When I see people doing it, I like to try to figure out what hostility they have toward it. It's not just metal. I've done the same thing with pop punk, hip hop... This kind of conversation is nothing new to me.

I don't have hostility toward metal. If you believe that, you've never read my posts.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
The miscommuncation caused a misrepresentation of what I was saying.

No, you misrepresented yourself, intentionally.

-AC

I knew it. I actually sensed the inability to admit when you have been proven flat out wrong.

Either way, stealing credit that doesn't belong to you is stealing, and I have seen metal take credit that's not its own. As I'm sure many have. If you haven't you're either lying or you're not as into the metal scene as you claim. It happens ESPECIALLY on metal forums.

What, just because I'm not a raging elitist, I'm not into metal or lying? No, I haven't seen any band take credit for something that was not theirs and nor have I seen any discussions about it from fans. If I had, I too would have told them that they were misinformed. It would be great to see an example, still, because if you're so sure that this is rampant in the metal community, you must have at least one example of it happening.

Ultimately I take your word for it. It stinks like a rotting fish, though.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm being entirely honest. I think you really do enjoy debating with people for the sake of it. It boosts your ego. You don't care if I was joking or not, you just want to believe that I was hand hoped that I put up a good fight. Too bad, I had no intention on defending something I said in good spirits.

I still see you weaselling, but out of the my word vs your word debate, I have to take your word over your own word. No matter how obvious I believe the contrary is.

Yes, even though I usually put up a debate with you and discourage musical elitism, that remark was totally in character for me. Yep, just Bardiel13 blabbering on about how metal is superior, like usual. Spare me.

Yes, and why do you think that is? Do you think that having so many genre tags is ENCOURAGING people to just listen to music for what it is? If anything it's limiting people's tastes. I suggested Opeth to a friend, they said "What are they?", I said "Metal". They said "What kind?", now if I had said anything to do with their death metal influence, he would never have listened, cos perception comes first. I just said "Listen.", he did, he loved it. He said "I'd never have tried if you'd described them as death metal.". Do you see my point?

I suppose it's like illegal downloading. I do not deny its positive sides, but I think the negative are far more overwhelming.

So how would you describe it to your friend if you were both talking over the internet and he couldn't simply "just listen"?

Do you like saying "deal" because I do? I say it when I suggest you to deal with something. Nothing I've said suggests I want to stop or erase what you and others do, I've explicitly said I accept its existence. So saying "deal" is irrelevant.

Actually, you keep insisting that you're dealing with the existance of subgenres, yet that does not seem to be the case. I could say we think alike, but that would not make it true, no matter how many times I repeated it.

What's the point of "funeral doom metal" as a tag? If you said that to your average joe, they'd have no f*cking clue what you're on about. You'd have to explain why "funeral" is there, that'd probably turn them away, then doom. As if metal doesn't have enough of a stigma as it is.

So in that case, you are doing what you claim I am. Being way too specific to people who would know these things.

Actually, I've described doom metal to people many times before. Most of them are intrigued and say something like "Wow, that must be heavy." But I assure them, "Actually, the name is kind of misleading. Doom metal is actually a lot like 70's rock, but heavier. Depending on what it's mixed with, harsh vocals are actually uncommon." If someone has a closed mind and turns away from a genre of music based on name, their loss.

Yeah, for the same reason Bush is still fighting in Iraq.

I thought the war was over insurgency or oil, maybe both. I never thought Bush was having a debate about metal genres, too! Wow, you've opened my eyes to the political world.

I have, many times. Here:

"What's the point of 'funeral doom metal' as a tag? If you said that to your average joe, they'd have no f*cking clue what you're on about. You'd have to explain why 'funeral' is there, that'd probably turn them away, then 'doom'. As if metal doesn't have enough of a stigma as it is.

So in that case, you are doing what you claim I am. Being way too specific to people who would know these things.".

To be honest, I haven't much experience with funeral doom metal, so it could be frivilous and stupid like so many are. But from the one song I have heard that's been labeled funeral doom, it really sets the mood. Calling it funeral doom metal, actually sounds plausable.

Do anything besides taking it as if someone's just told you your grandmother died. It's entirely needless.

I didn't take it like that. You like to imagine me sniffling, voice cracking "Hey, man... That's mean!" When, really I'm curious, "What's your beef, pal?" Like I said, you're biased and you like to see me in whatever context makes you feel like you're winning.

I don't have hostility toward metal. If you believe that, you've never read my posts.

I didn't say you did. But many others do for other genres. I like to pick at their brains and see why they are offended so by simple sound. You accused metal of "stealing" from other genres. This concept was new to me, so naturally, I was curious.

No, you misrepresented yourself, intentionally.

And why would I do that? So I could secretly get away with sneaking in my closeted metal elitism and claim I was joking if someone caught me? 🙄

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What, just because I'm not a raging elitist, I'm not into metal or lying? No, I haven't seen any band take credit for something that was not theirs and nor have I seen any discussions about it from fans. If I had, I too would have told them that they were misinformed. It would be great to see an example, still, because if you're so sure that this is rampant in the metal community, you must have at least one example of it happening.

Wait, you actually don't believe that people believe metal to be the best genre ever, most inventive or imaginative?

Just clarify that for me, first. You do not believe, nor have you ever seen, anybody rate metal that high, or as very original? You, in none of your stints on metal forums, have seen the kind of rabid fandom that occurs?

You are aware of ICP, aware of obscure interviews they've been in...but you haven't experience metal being overrated and over-credited?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm being entirely honest. I think you really do enjoy debating with people for the sake of it. It boosts your ego. You don't care if I was joking or not, you just want to believe that I was hand hoped that I put up a good fight. Too bad, I had no intention on defending something I said in good spirits.

If I'm taking your word for it then I'm clearly not doing all the stuff you just said. I'm not the one who admits he replies out of pride, cos that's just a stupid thing to do. I never reply for the sake of it, you do.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yes, even though I usually put up a debate with you and discourage musical elitism, that remark was totally in character for me. Yep, just Bardiel13 blabbering on about how metal is superior, like usual. Spare me.

I'm not actually an elitist, I just don't accept certain things. If anything, I'm anti-YOUR kind of elitism. I don't accept stupidity, there's a difference.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So how would you describe it to your friend if you were both talking over the internet and he couldn't simply "just listen"?

Metal. End of discussion.

If he asked what kind, I'd simply say they have many influences and it's hard to nail down, you're better off just listening if you can.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Actually, you keep insisting that you're dealing with the existance of subgenres, yet that does not seem to be the case. I could say we think alike, but that would not make it true, no matter how many times I repeated it.

I don't care how it seems, you're using it out of context.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Actually, I've described doom metal to people many times before. Most of them are intrigued and say something like "Wow, that must be heavy." But I assure them, "Actually, the name is kind of misleading. Doom metal is actually a lot like 70's rock, but heavier. Depending on what it's mixed with, harsh vocals are actually uncommon." If someone has a closed mind and turns away from a genre of music based on name, their loss.

I'm not talking about recommending it to people already into music, they tend to be more open minded than random folks LOOKING to get new music.

Exactly, their loss, when just recommending the music has more chance of them just liking it, if you are into spoodfeeding people that is.

Also, that doesn't negate my point. You said "funeral doom metal" was a practical label. It's not is it? If it takes more effort to describe and would most likely result in someone not even trying, then what you are suggesting is precisely what you claim I'm doing.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I thought the war was over insurgency or oil, maybe both. I never thought Bush was having a debate about metal genres, too! Wow, you've opened my eyes to the political world.

I should have known you'd not get it.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
To be honest, I haven't much experience with funeral doom metal, so it could be frivilous and stupid like so many are. But from the one song I have heard that's been labeled funeral doom, it really sets the mood. Calling it funeral doom metal, actually sounds plausable.

What mood? "I feel like I'm at a funeral, listening to doom metal."? Do you realise how utterly dumb that is? That is the worst pigeonholing ever. "This band make music that sounds like doom metal, but for funerals.". Half the bands kids label don't even consider themselves what they are being labelled, that's the funny thing.

My point is, when you go too far, it stops working in the favour of your argument.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't take it like that. You like to imagine me sniffling, voice cracking "Hey, man... That's mean!" When, really I'm curious, "What's your beef, pal?" Like I said, you're biased and you like to see me in whatever context makes you feel like you're winning.

Which would be precisely why I accept your word on what you meant. I often don't need to see myself winning against you, it happens anyway because you have such poor arguments, don't flatter yourself.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't say you did. But many others do for other genres. I like to pick at their brains and see why they are offended so by simple sound. You accused metal of "stealing" from other genres. This concept was new to me, so naturally, I was curious.

You have an innate defense of metal, proven by the continual nonsense of: "I was being enthusiastic by saying metal was the most creative and imaginative, I didn't mean it.". Followed by "Simply saying 'I love metal!' wouldn't say why.", but neither did your "jokey" over-enthusiasm.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And why would I do that? So I could secretly get away with sneaking in my closeted metal elitism and claim I was joking if someone caught me? 🙄

Saying something the complete opposite of what you mean in a public forum, the challenging someone to prove you wrong for whatever reason, is not misrepresentation first and foremost?

Funny.

-AC

Wait, you actually don't believe that people believe metal to be the best genre ever, most inventive or imaginative?

Just clarify that for me, first. You do not believe, nor have you ever seen, anybody rate metal that high, or as very original? You, in none of your stints on metal forums, have seen the kind of rabid fandom that occurs?

You are aware of ICP, aware of obscure interviews they've been in...but you haven't experience metal being overrated and over-credited?

Oh, I'm aware. I just think you're exaggerating. Something which you like to knock me for. Appearantly, it's rampant enough that you have to ***** about it. In full honesty, I am yet to meet a person who overcredits metal and truely believes it. I've never seen a man on fire, but I am aware people can be immolated.

If I'm taking your word for it then I'm clearly not doing all the stuff you just said. I'm not the one who admits he replies out of pride, cos that's just a stupid thing to do. I never reply for the sake of it, you do.

So, there we have it. I have pride. Oh no, that means everything I've said means nothing! It really is a deadly sin!! What's your point, bub?

I'm not actually an elitist, I just don't accept certain things. If anything, I'm anti-YOUR kind of elitism. I don't accept stupidity, there's a difference.

So, tell me. What's my kind of elitism?

Metal. End of discussion.

If he asked what kind, I'd simply say they have many influences and it's hard to nail down, you're better off just listening if you can.

So you like to be vague. More power to you. Some people do not. What's to argue?

I don't care how it seems, you're using it out of context.

Am I? Because I am yet to see someone mention a less-than-basic genre without you stepping in.

I'm not talking about recommending it to people already into music, they tend to be more open minded than random folks LOOKING to get new music.

Exactly, their loss, when just recommending the music has more chance of them just liking it, if you are into spoodfeeding people that is.

Also, that doesn't negate my point. You said "funeral doom metal" was a practical label. It's not is it? If it takes more effort to describe and would most likely result in someone not even trying, then what you are suggesting is precisely what you claim I'm doing.

And yet no one else seems to care as much as you. Why is that?

I should have known you'd not get it.

Yeah, aren't I a peach?

What mood? "I feel like I'm at a funeral, listening to doom metal."? Do you realise how utterly dumb that is? That is the worst pigeonholing ever. "This band make music that sounds like doom metal, but for funerals.". Half the bands kids label don't even consider themselves what they are being labelled, that's the funny thing.

My point is, when you go too far, it stops working in the favour of your argument.

Hey, it's not like I'm gonna fight tooth and nail for Funeral Doom Metal to stll be considered a genre. I just think it's stupid for you to get so worked up about it. No, funeral doom metal has nothing to do with funerals, unless the band writes songs about it. But, it reminded me of the mood of funerals. You can call it doom metal and I'll still call it doom metal, but it somone refers to it as funeral doom metal, I'm not going to jump all over them for it.

Which would be precisely why I accept your word on what you meant. I often don't need to see myself winning against you, it happens anyway because you have such poor arguments, don't flatter yourself.

Best take your own advice, pal. I'm not trying to flatter myself. It's you who's holding your opinion above others. You say "Ha! Fool! I'm totally winning this! Your kung fu is weeeaaakkk!*" When in reality, it's just two morons arguing over a musical genre.

*Not a direct quote from Alpha Centauri.

You have an innate defense of metal, proven by the continual nonsense of: "I was being enthusiastic by saying metal was the most creative and imaginative, I didn't mean it.". Followed by "Simply saying 'I love metal!' wouldn't say why.", but neither did your "jokey" over-enthusiasm.

I didn't say it was the most creative and imaginative. I said I liked the varying ascpect of it. Now, let me ask you this: Was it in character for me to really mean metal was the most anything? You like me to show proof and back up, right? Show me proof that it's more plausible that I would be spouting elitist psychobabel than simply being enthausiastic, based on my recent posts. Have I ever done anything of the sort? Have I ever said "Metal is superior! Prove to me it's not!" and really meant it? You simply wish you could shoot down elitists, because they're easy prey for beating people in debates. You like to look for them and you thought you found one, when I made that post. And even though I told you over and over that I wasn't being serious when I said it, you having YOUR pride couldn't back down and say "Sorry, dude, I thought you were serious." You convinced yourself that I was trying to weasel out of my claim, since someone caught on to my elitism.

Saying something the complete opposite of what you mean in a public forum, the challenging someone to prove you wrong for whatever reason, is not misrepresentation first and foremost?

Funny.

I didn't say it wasn't misrepresentation. It was both, because you took what I said in a way that I didn't intend. My point was miscommunicated. And I didn't man the opposite. I wasn't saying it wasn't diverse at all, by being sarcastic. I was simply saying "I like how the different genres vary."

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Oh, I'm aware. I just think you're exaggerating. Something which you like to knock me for. Appearantly, it's rampant enough that you have to ***** about it. In full honesty, I am yet to meet a person who overcredits metal and truely believes it. I've never seen a man on fire, but I am aware people can be immolated.

Then if you're aware why are you denying it? If you aren't yet to meet the people doing it, doesn't actually mean they don't exist, they do. If you know it's possible and that it happens, then what was the point of your previous claim? You've never seen it happen, ok, great, so? I've never seen a wild boar kill a man, I know it can/does happen.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So, there we have it. I have pride. Oh no, that means everything I've said means nothing! It really is a deadly sin!! What's your point, bub?

My point is, as I've said many times (You aren't very quick, are you?), replying purely out of pride them blaming me for you "having" to reply, despite having nothing to say, is stupid. You HAVE said that regardless, you feel obligated to reply when I do.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So, tell me. What's my kind of elitism?

Metal elitism.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So you like to be vague. More power to you. Some people do not. What's to argue?

You're calling it vague, that's not what it is. It's just a general, yet honest suggestion. You wish to step over the line and go toward "Yes, this is exactly what it means and sounds like.", I prefer to let the listener decide what they think it is. Genre taggers will tag regardless, I never have and never will.

YOU are over-specific.

What's to argue? Exactly, what problem do you have? All I'm doing is pointing out why I believe what you do is stupid, not saying "STOP IT!".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Am I? Because I am yet to see someone mention a less-than-basic genre without you stepping in.

Discussion forum, it suggests nothing more than I have views I like to express and there are views I like to hear. Many use genre tags for a different reason, it's curiousity. I had the same discussion with Deathblow before.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And yet no one else seems to care as much as you. Why is that?

You are interpreting it as care. I don't walk around the street debating with people, this is a music discussion forum and this is a thread where we are debating genres and genre tags. What's the problem?

The extreme hypocricy is that it's people like you who really do care too much. I don't care enough to call something "funeral doom metal", that plus it being stupid.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yeah, aren't I a peach?

A lemon. Sour, bitter etc.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Hey, it's not like I'm gonna fight tooth and nail for Funeral Doom Metal to stll be considered a genre. I just think it's stupid for you to get so worked up about it.

And I think it's stupid for you to assume I'm getting worked up about it, also hypocritical considering you're a major advocate of "It's not easy to communicate through text!".

It's a discussion here, in this thread. Nothing personal to ME.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
No, funeral doom metal has nothing to do with funerals, unless the band writes songs about it. But, it reminded me of the mood of funerals.

Which is what I said...

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You can call it doom metal and I'll still call it doom metal, but it somone refers to it as funeral doom metal, I'm not going to jump all over them for it.

I'm not trying to stop people doing so, but it's called freedom of speech.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Best take your own advice, pal. I'm not trying to flatter myself. It's you who's holding your opinion above others. You say "Ha! Fool! I'm totally winning this! Your kung fu is weeeaaakkk!*" When in reality, it's just two morons arguing over a musical genre.

If you feel you're a moron, go for it. I'm not, but thanks.

I didn't spend my time, money and love on music, learning and researching so I can say "Hey, we're all equal.". That's not the point of having a brain. There are many who know more, but there are many who know less, it's the way of the world.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't say it was the most creative and imaginative. I said I liked the varying ascpect of it.

I'll go grab the quote afte I post this.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Now, let me ask you this: Was it in character for me to really mean metal was the most anything? You like me to show proof and back up, right? Show me proof that it's more plausible that I would be spouting elitist psychobabel than simply being enthausiastic, based on my recent posts.

Based on your recent posts? So, we're supposed to take your word for it that you were joking...and therefore assume it's obvious you were? That's rather silly. Your initial quote and reply to whoever it was did not suggest jocular conversation, especially given your attitude toward metal on this forum.

You are viewed as a silly metal elitist, I believe Nellinator even said so. So yes, I'd say it would be in character. That said, I have to take your word you were joking.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Have I ever done anything of the sort? Have I ever said "Metal is superior! Prove to me it's not!" and really meant it? You simply wish you could shoot down elitists, because they're easy prey for beating people in debates. You like to look for them and you thought you found one, when I made that post. And even though I told you over and over that I wasn't being serious when I said it, you having [b]YOUR pride couldn't back down and say "Sorry, dude, I thought you were serious." You convinced yourself that I was trying to weasel out of my claim, since someone caught on to my elitism.[/b]

How many times have I said I have taken your word for it? If you wish me to say "I don't find ANYTHING fishy about it.", I won't cos that's not what I believe. If you were joking, you were joking. I accept your word over your post, I just find it dodgy. It's not "pride", it's overwhelming context. Though my point is proven here as you simply cannot resist finding ANY reason to reply to me.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't say it wasn't misrepresentation. It was both, because you took what I said in a way that I didn't intend.

That doesn't qualify as miscommunication.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
My point was miscommunicated. And I didn't man the opposite. I wasn't saying it wasn't diverse at all, by being sarcastic. I was simply saying "I like how the different genres vary."

I'll grab the quotes.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Possibly, the greatest, most diverse form of music I can think of.

Followed by someone saying they disagree and you challenging them to prove it.

Not until I said something did you come out and say it was over-enthusiasm, THEN humour.

Like I said, I'm taking your word for it, but to say "LOOK! THAT'S CLEARLY A JOKE!" is silly.

-AC