Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Wow, talk about twisting GL's words to fit your argument.
He said that "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor". This means that Anakin was no longer as strong as the Emperor, when he was injured and burned.
Now if you can't understand the meaning of this simple comment properly, then it is not my fault.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Also, to put a little more icing on the cake, if Anakin was as strong as Sidious, then why would Yoda allow OB1 to fight Anakin if he just said, "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not."
Well if you take the novelisation into consideration, it's made clear that Yoda and Obi-Wan were heavily overrating Sidious at this point, to the point where they actually believed that the both of them, together, wouldn't even have a chance against him. It's made clear in the film that Yoda was, in fact, a match for him.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If he isn't strong enough to fight Sidious then he isn't strong enough to fight Anakin, based on your YOUR biased illogical assertion.
Well there is the fact that Obi-Wan was Anakin's master, so training him for all those years would naturally grant him advantages if he were to fight Anakin: he would know his weaknesses and such. There's also the fact that while Obi-Wan was disciplined and calm spirited, Anakin was pretty much the opposite, meaning he would be the only one of the pair to experience the drawbacks from the the bond between them, and the love shared.
Originally posted by kamikz
You open your ****ing eyes, you just take the quote to literal....
Woah, calm down man, I don't think I've ever seen you angry before. 😆
Lucas has said before that the only ones strong enough to stand against the Emperor is Mace and Yoda, not Anakin. (ROTS documentary) So there you have it...
Didn't he also say that Anakin could also compete with him, once he had turned to the darkside?
Use your brain, why do you even bother debating this? You KNOW that Anakin is nowhere near Sidious in the force, and they are pretty near eachother in sabers, it makes no sense to say that they are equal, and since other people don't agree with the way you think of this quote, it leaves your argument pretty much destroyed.
1. We know this? I don't know this. DarthSith and SW Legend clearly don't know this either. Where's the proof that Sidious is, in fact, stronger than a darksided RotS Anakin?
2. Saberwise, I have to say I disagree. Anakin would destroy Sidious in lightsaber combat; he's much faster, much stronger, he had the skill to overpower Dooku, he was able to fend off Cin Drallig with his lightsaber while simultaneously choking a padawan... Sidious was terribly slow, terribly unskilled, completely lacked technique, struggled against Yoda... He only did good against people that sucked.
Lucas says, "which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become". That quote, does NOT speak for ROTS Anakin's power level, it speaks for "what he could have become". Read it carefully, all it ever involvs is about how "Sidious wanted someone more powerful than him", then it is followed by "Obi-Wan screwed that up, now he is not as powerful as Sidious". It IS about potential, it is not about ROTS Anakin's power level. The "as strong as" is fitting perfectly in that, he is saying that instead of someone that would be more powerful than him, he isn't even equal to him. You are saying that since he says, "from then on, he is not as strong as the Emperor" it must mean that Anakin by ROTS is as strong as him. This is wrong, for THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION is about what Anakin COULD HAVE BECOME, nothing is about what Anakin was in ROTS. The as strong as is simply to show that he is not even above the Emperor anymore, as he should have been, which was the Emperor's request.
Again, I have to disagree. Anakin has something like ten times the potential that Sidious has. If it was referring to potential, the quote would have read 'stronger', not 'as strong as'.
If you are still going to take it so damn literally, then we might just go ahead and say that Maul, Dooku and Vader are all equal, because Lucas put them together such....
Not really, because Lucas didn't do so much as directly state such a thing (like he did with the other quote), but simply put them all under the same category as people who weren't as strong as The Emporer. You can't really compare a direct statement to a wild inference, that's just silly.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
We know what this means
Originally posted by Lightsnake
what're you talking about? He was already hit by Kun. Defensive techniques won't do a THING when you're hit while distracted
And Kun was attacking FROM BEHIND when Kyp was
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bull. It didn't 'take' that...Kun was lured into a trap by the padawans and already done for when Luke and vodo appeared.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Beaten by Padawans, hail the Dark Lord
Originally posted by Lightsnake
G-canon does prove it.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry. Lucas's reviewed words, the words of the Old Republic's original creator and Matt Stover have all said Yoda is the strongest Jedi as of ROTS, in print or in writing. And they have cited Lucas as their source
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stop being dumb. 'In history' with author clarification doesn't mean 'in a thousand years
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No it's not. It's only ambiguous when you want it to be.
Btw, 'modern times' doesn't discount 'all time.'
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Discounting anything post ROTS, he's number 1
Originally posted by allfg
Woah, calm down man, I don't think I've ever seen you angry before. 😆Didn't he also say that Anakin could also compete with him, once he had turned to the darkside?
1. We know this? I don't know this. DarthSith and SW Legend clearly don't know this either. Where's the proof that Sidious is, in fact, stronger than a darksided RotS Anakin?
2. Saberwise, I have to say I disagree. Anakin would destroy Sidious in lightsaber combat; he's much faster, much stronger, he had the skill to overpower Dooku, he was able to fend off Cin Drallig with his lightsaber while simultaneously choking a padawan... Sidious was terribly slow, terribly unskilled, completely lacked technique, struggled against Yoda... He only did good against people that sucked.
Again, I have to disagree. Anakin has something like ten times the potential that Sidious has. If it was referring to potential, the quote would have read 'strong[b]er
', not 'as strong as'.Not really, because Lucas didn't do so much as directly state such a thing (like he did with the other quote), but simply put them all under the same category as people who weren't as strong as The Emporer. You can't really compare a direct statement to a wild inference, that's just silly. [/B]
Lol, sorry! I'm dealing with alot of shit in school at the moment, and had been in furious debates earlier, sorry to DS!
No, GL said that Anakin could have competed with Sidious if he had survived without the accidents, meaning if he got his potential...
Where's the proof Sidious is stronger in the force? Well for one, he can lift several pods in the air at once, and toss them around with ease, Anakin hasn't shown anything on par.
Sidious was way above Dooku, who wtfpwned Obi-Wan with a "flick of his wrist", while Anakin could only stalemate him.
Sidious has offensive powers, way more so than Anakin.
Sidious has extremely huge knowledge of the dark side, and has studied "all the aspects of the force".
Anakin making a statue fall does not even compare, that's the only feat even worth to mention....
Sidious being slow? Is that why he is referred as "the shadow" in the ROTS novelisation because he is so damn fast? He has the experience advantage against Anakin, the speed advantage (yes, he is sickly fast), he has knowledge of (possibly mastered) all the 7 forms, and is much more calm than Anakin is and could easily make Anakin make mistakes. I am afraid you are just going by the actors performance in the movies (which is the worst fighting scene in the whole Star Wars saga IMO, choreographed that is). If we would go by that, Darth Maul would be a better fighter than Sidious and Mace, not true....
Lucas has stated Anakin at full potential is twice Sidious, so it should be twice his potential. And the whole quote speaks about Anakin's potential, all about what Anakin would've become, what happened to him etc. It is really hard to explain when people are not able to see it your way, which makes this very frustrating.
But we see it different ways, and I really got to do math now. (God, math sucks). So you don't need to reply, we just say that we agree to disagree. (Unless you agree with this post that is)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then why discuss this?
Still your mighty Luke was helpless against his attack.
He was not destroyed until Luke and Vodo joined them and combined their efforts. In other words: it took lot more then a single individual to defeat him, which shows that he was very powerful.
Consisting of two Grand Sons of The Chosen One and further aided by Luke's spirit and Vodo's spirit. All hail the Dark Lord now.
Provide me evidence of this?
And when did I denied this?
Again, conflicts between canon sources is what is causing confusion. You take a line from one canon source to support your claim and I take a line from an another canon source to support mine. So we both are right and wrong at the same time in this case.
The term "Modern Times" points towards the modern age of Star Wars and not the Old Age.
I already know this.
You open your ****ing eyes, you just take the quote to literal....
Lucas has said before that the only ones strong enough to stand against the Emperor is Mace and Yoda, not Anakin. (ROTS documentary) So there you have it...
Use your brain, why do you even bother debating this? You KNOW that Anakin is nowhere near Sidious in the force, and they are pretty near eachother in sabers, it makes no sense to say that they are equal, and since other people don't agree with the way you think of this quote, it leaves your argument pretty much destroyed.
So here we have it, either we take your side, where you take one single quote from Lucas, saying it says they are equal though everything points against it, or we take my side, where it says that Lucas already has DEFINITIVE quotes that he is not as strong as Sidious
That quote, does NOT speak for ROTS Anakin's power level, it speaks for "what he could have become". Read it carefully, all it ever involvs is about how "Sidious wanted someone more powerful than him", then it is followed by "Obi-Wan screwed that up, now he is not as powerful as Sidious".
If you are still going to take it so damn literally, then we might just go ahead and say that Maul, Dooku and Vader are all equal, because Lucas put them together such....
Also, to put a little more icing on the cake, if Anakin was as strong as Sidious, then why would Yoda allow OB1 to fight Anakin if he just said, "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not." If he isn't strong enough to fight Sidious then he isn't strong enough to fight Anakin, based on your YOUR biased illogical assertion.
"He was never again as strong as the Emperor."
again: once more
never: at no time
"He was at no time once more as strong as the Emperor"
Meaning as one time he was one as strong as the Emperor. Otherwise the word the word "again" wouldn't have been there and it would read "He was never as strong as the Emperor." the again serves a purpose. If he didn't mean it then he wouldn't have said it.
Lol, sorry! I'm dealing with alot of shit in school at the moment, and had been in furious debates earlier, sorry to DS!
LOl, I was just kidding, it was cool.
No, GL said that Anakin could have competed with Sidious if he had survived without the accidents, meaning if he got his potential...
Ok, well I'll take you're word for it, though I could have sworn that it was said that Anakin could also compete.
Where's the proof Sidious is stronger in the force? Well for one, he can lift several pods in the air at once, and toss them around with ease, Anakin hasn't shown anything on par.
I don't know about that.. In the RotS novelisation, he was able to break the head off of some giant statue (about 100 feet tall) and hurl it at an equally giant door, breaking through it. And Sidious wasn't even able to overpower a prepared Yoda, who's proven in the movies to not be anywhere near as impressive as his EU self, and nothing too special, and way overrated.
Sidious was way above Dooku
Proof for the 'way'?
who wtfpwned Obi-Wan with a "flick of his wrist"
What people don't seem to get about what Dooku did is that it speaks far more for his dueling skills than it does for his strength with the force. He had to put Obi-Wan on the defencive with his superior swordfighting skills, force him to concentrate and focus in blocking Dooku's attacks, and then execute a force attack midway through a parry. Obi-Wan couldn't possibly put up a force defence under those circumstances, he would have been far too focused in blocking Dooku's attacks. What Dooku did, in respect to the force, was basically on par with taking out non force sensitives with the force; really not that impressive, and in no way speaks for his superiority over Obi-Wan in that regard (though a case could certainly be made). Makes sense?
And Obi-Wan certainly proves himself when he force pushed Grievous about 50 feet in the air.
while Anakin could only stalemate him.
Anakin was completely unfocused and out of control in that entire duel, he would hardly be performing at his best. And Obi-Wan knew him inside out, he would know his weaknesses, and would have that advantage.
Sidious has offensive powers, way more so than Anakin.
So what? Anakin can most likely defend against anything Sidious throws at him, and since when does having more offensive force powers make such a huge difference? Anakin can apply TK offensively, and he also knows force lightning (source? The canon RotS game).
Sidious has extremely huge knowledge of the dark side, and has studied "all the aspects of the force".
That quote is actually in reference to his DE self, and knowledge is overrated; it in no way compares to actual strength with the force, and really, as long as you know a few defencive force techniques, a few offensive techniques, and maybe a few practical ones, why would more techniques really make any difference whatsoever? Sure, variety is nice, but it doesn't necessarily make too much a difference.,
Anakin making a statue fall does not even compare, that's the only feat even worth to mention....
That's your opinion, however I view the feat as being > than anything Sidious did.
Sidious being slow? Is that why he is referred as "the shadow" in the ROTS novelisation because he is so damn fast?
Contradicts the movie.
He has the experience advantage against Anakin
He was out of practise for 13 years...
he has knowledge of (possibly mastered) all the 7 forms
Proof? His technique was very shoddy in the movie.
and is much more calm than Anakin is and could easily make Anakin make mistakes.
I'll give it to you that he's more calm, but I doubt that he'd be able to force Anakin into a mistake. Anakin's not a moron. A high combination of skill and sycologikal dominance would be required.
I am afraid you are just going by the actors performance in the movies (which is the worst fighting scene in the whole Star Wars saga IMO, choreographed that is). If we would go by that, Darth Maul would be a better fighter than Sidious and Mace, not true....
The skills of the movie characters is 100% dependant on their actors' performances, so you'll have to accept that. And in response to your last statement, why must that be wrong?
Lucas has stated Anakin at full potential is twice Sidious, so it should be twice his potential.
I read 10 times, are you sure you got your source right?
And the whole quote speaks about Anakin's potential, all about what Anakin would've become, what happened to him etc. It is really hard to explain when people are not able to see it your way, which makes this very frustrating.
No I get that, however that doesn't automatically put every single statement in that same context when it clearly isn't.
But we see it different ways, and I really got to do math now. (God, math sucks). So you don't need to reply, we just say that we agree to disagree. (Unless you agree with this post that is)
LOL, whoops, I had already posted a reply by the time I read this, so I'll just post it anyway.
Nebaris, you constantly keep trying to downplay Yoda and Sidious why do you keep typing the same crap over and over your argument gets destroyed every time.
Lucas word edited the ROTS Novel, meaning he completely agrees with everything put, meaning Sidious is a shadow and Yoda is the most powerful Jedi to that point. No matter how much you want it not to be true and you want Bane to hold the title of "bestest evar" it wont happen.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxxThis just in Tom, Darth Bane has been voted Bestestest Sith Eva by a panel of all-Sith judges. Lead Judge Marka "Pwnage" Ragnos has finally agreed with rival judge Sidious that Bane's power far surpasses all the Sith's power in history, COMBINED.
Nebaris, you constantly keep trying to downplay Yoda and Sidious why do you keep typing the same crap over and over your argument gets destroyed every time.Lucas word edited the ROTS Novel, meaning he completely agrees with everything put, meaning Sidious is a shadow and Yoda is the most powerful Jedi to that point. No matter how much you want it not to be true and you want Bane to hold the title of "bestest evar" it wont happen.
In other news, Hell recently froze over in that nation's coldest day since Bush won the Florida vote in 2000.
By your logic, he completely agrees with Kit Fisto being beheaded, even though he was slashed across the chest. I'm sorry, but simply being line edited by Lucas doesn't grant a source immunity from being retconned by a higher form of canon. This is the case here, deal with it. Palpatine is shown moving at incredibly slow speeds, in the movies aka the highest form of canon aka you lose.
Sorry Nebaris, the novel represents Lucas's intentions, however I agree if it does blatantly contradict the movie as Mace's arrest scene does then yes its not canon, however, there is a large cutaway from the Yoda/Palaptine duel, where in fact Yoda disarms Sidious, the fighting in the script is called extremely fast, the book calls Sidious a shadow meaning Sidious is a extremely fast to the point of being a shadow. You lose.
Right, so he started the duel off slow, and then, mystically during the part of the duel we don't actually get to see, he moves so quickly that he's compared to a shadow, and then, he goes back to being slow again towards the end of the duel? LOL! Don't be silly, it's a direct contradiction, and the movies > the novel, the script, and you. Deal with it.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because you're making it into an argument
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Are you being an idiot intentionally? He was helpless because he was SURPRISED AND HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE HE WAS BUSY WITH ANOTHER OPPONENT.
And Kyp's power was also greatly enhanced by Kun's spirit. So Kun was already at a clear advantage against Luke.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke and Vodo did...anything? When? Kun was described as helpless before they even showed up
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow. He's beaten by infants and Padawans.
There was no aid by Luke or Vodo until Exar was done for
And Luke helped his nephew and niece by communicating with them. And Vodo's presense was enough to shock Kun so much that he lost all hope. So Luke's and Vodo's spirits played their roles in some manner.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novelization
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why are you even contesting it?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Find me any direct canon source.
And for the record? I'm using the more recent stuff. From higher canon. And funny how all the canon seems to agree with Yoda and Palp being the most powerful up to ROTS as Jedi and Sith go...
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And 'in history' and 'ever' are not exclusive of that. Which canon also mentions.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Then you're arguing why?
Your talking like Sidious was moving ridiculously slow during the Yoda duel. Even in the part we see (the part where there confined to the senate pods) Sidious was still moving fast, MUCH faster then his Mace duel.
And considering the fact the book doesn't call him a shadow at the start
of the duel, we see only a SMALL piece of the lightsaber portion that pans out to a over head view, then the fact that we miss what the script calls Yodas most furious and fast assault, then the we have Sidious being called a shadow, I'd say its VERY plausible and likely did happen since
A. Blurs would not be entertaining to fans
B. Lucas agrees with this interpretation.
C. Lucas agrees that Sidious was capable of indeed moving that fast.
D. Leeland Chee says cutaways and POV's can be supplemented with the Novel and other sources that don't contradict the movie.
So sorry Nebaris your wrong (as usual) and really whats the point of this discussion? Sidious was still the most powerful Sith ever before that point. His speed is rather irrelevant.
Now if were on the topic of who'd win in a straight lightsaber duel between Anakin and Sidious its Anakin.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDNo. But I have a basic grasp of English
[B]No! I did not. I posted what I understood about that statement and you don't need to tell me that what does that statement means because you are not Lucas.
The way you portray Luke, he should win in any case. He could have sensed Kun's spirit but he could not and thus he was not extra-ordinary.
And Kyp's power was also greatly enhanced by Kun's spirit. So Kun was already at a clear advantage against Luke.
Luke's spirit was communicating/helping his nephew and niece so his spirit played some role. And arrival of Vodo's spirit proved to be a major shock for Kun and thus he lost all hope.
Kun was a spirit by that time and even then he performed remarkable feats. If he would have been ressurrected then those Padawans would have stood no chance.
And Luke helped his nephew and niece by communicating with them. And Vodo's presense was enough to shock Kun so much that he lost all hope. So Luke's and Vodo's spirits played their roles in some manner
Did ROTS Novelization stated that Yoda was far more powerful then Kun? And if yes then provide me link and quote.
I used SW Databank as my source. And no one doubted that Yoda was master of Light and Sidious was master of Dark. Sidious was however termed as the highest practitioner of Sith ways in "Modern Times". But ROTS Novelization uses term "history", so their is a contradiction here.
Contradiction with information of SW Databank is evident. Not my fault.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. But I have a basic grasp of English
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not sensing a spirit isn't extraordinary? Ecemplary Jedi masters can't sense spirits, eitheer. What sort of dumb logic is this? "He can't sense a spirit when he's engaging his apprentice so he sucks!"
Newsflash, btw: Luke already knew about the dark presence at that point. He drove it away in his dream, so Kun went to Gantoris. You make it sound as if Kun appearing behind a distracted Luke lessens him
And Kun was in firm control of that fight in which Luke was facing Kyp. He over-powered Kyp so that Kyp could match Luke in combat and then he himself attacked Luke and it was game over. Did you get the bigger picture here?
Point is that Kun posed a huge threat to Luke, even as a spirit.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He wasn't possessed, now was he?
"That wasn't precisely Kyp who did that. He was possessed by the spirit of a long-dead Sith Lord named Exar Kun."
Do you have any more argument left now?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo arrived when Kun was doomed already. When Luke and Vodo appeared, the students had Kun trapped and done for
Originally posted by Lightsnake
May the Dark Lord triumph over untrained kids
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo and Luke's appearances happened after Kun was trapped
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. However, it states Yoda to be the strongest Jedi. and other material states Palpatine to be the strongest Sith.
do the math
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, there isn't. And more than one source terms Palp the best in history. now, the ROTS novelization is personally approved word for word by Lucas himself. and if Palp's the best ever, then he's obviously going to the best recently as well.
There's no contradiction. Just an omission
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Omission is not contradiction
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am also not bad in English.
So I just discovered a weakness in the most powerful Jedi. Hmm! Nice!And Kun was in firm control of that fight in which Luke was facing Kyp. He over-powered Kyp so that Kyp could match Luke in combat and then he himself attacked Luke and it was game over. Did you get the bigger picture here?
Point is that Kun posed a huge threat to Luke, even as a spirit.
Then why did Luke said this to Cal Omas:"That wasn't precisely Kyp who did that. He was possessed by the spirit of a long-dead Sith Lord named Exar Kun."
Do you have any more argument left now?
Kun was out-numbered by 15 individuals and thus any spirit in his place would be in great disadvantage. You should note that it was 15 vs 1 situation.
Un-trained? They were being trained by Luke.
I know and it was 15 on 1 situation.
Two sources use different terms and it changes the meaning of the entire sentence. This is contradiction.
Omission? It is contradiction.