Captain America versus Lady Shiva

Originally posted by Draco69
When? When a master martial artist gets training usually they spent YEARS and YEARS getting training.

We usually see the typical "Ryu walking scene" where said MA travels around the world learning under many different teachers and coming back home finally after a decade with a beard or a new hairdo.

Cap?

He didn't get this treatment. Nor did he simply have the time.

so it may be more like-

Received training. By who? How long? There WAS a war going on. I mean, I don't think the guy had the time to travel to China to train under stick.

How long did WWII last? About 6 years. And that's not including when America got involved. Which makes his training time even less.

Cap got the serum AFTER Pearl Harbor. And he didn't have any MA training up to that point. So from 1941 to roughly 1945, he had training and he fought in WWII.

I guess Wildcat must be a master MA too!

So let's look at the facts:

Cap had time to master EVERY form of combat in less than four years?

WHILE leading the Invaders in WWII?

WHILE fighting a war?

😐

That's nice. It's not really different from any other superhero career though...

😐

Minus the frozen part...

No, I'm saying he had about four years to train during WWII...on top of fighting the said war and leading the Invaders.

Not alot of time to devote to MAs....

Actually he's pushing 40...or 60 if you count the Lazarus Pit occasion.

Batman's actually around 60 years old in reality.

He's devoted about 20 years to training.

Certainly not belivable. But a hell of a lot better than four years during a flippin World War...

We also use logic. Shiva's been doing MAs since BIRTH.

😬

yes, there was a war going on, but Captain america was the SOLE recipient of the super soldier project. he wasn't on the front line with the grunts, he was reserved for special missions. I don't think it;s much of a stretch to assume the US government/Shield/whatever trained the only super soldier they had extensively during the 6 or so years they had him.

SO I'm looking at it as any time Cap WASNT deployed in the field on a special mission, they were training his ass off.

Then he's frozen.

It's been established that around a decade or so has passed since Fantastic 4 #1...this is around the time Rogers was brought back out of stasis and joined the avengers.

So that's another ten years of training with the best that the avengers and sheild can provide, WITH his advanced stamina and reflexes, thats a bare minimum of 16 years of comic time cap has been doing nothing but fighting and training. That's EASILY on par with as much training batman has, and Cap can train longer and harder without his body giving out, thanks to the serum.

Someone else mentioned chronological reboots via korvac, but I don't know anything about those.

Batman is not 40-60 years old. he's in his early to mid 30s. How old do you think Dick Grayson is? he's been around almost since the beginning of batman's crime fighting career and he's only in his mid to late 20s.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If
Shiva > Batman
and
Shang Chi = Shiva
then
Shang Chi > Batman
Now
Wolverine > Shang Chi
and
Wolverine = Captain America (more or less)
so...
Captain America > Shang Chi
and
Captian America > Dragon/Shiva/Turner
😎

Wolverine = Captain America = Elektra (more or less)

so...

Wolverine/Elektra > Dragon/Shiva/Turner

I imagine your protestations about Batman could likewise be applied to Wolverine. 131

I just wanted to point out; I've heard the "Captain America didn't have TIME to get that skilled!" argument thrown around so often....

It's a comic book. It's supposed to be unrealistic. If a kid can get super powers from a cancerous spider bite, Captain America can have mastered every martial art on the planet with little to no training. Seriously.

Not to mention the fact that Cap has been shown to learn martial arts at an INSANE rate. He learned an entire alien martial art after watching it being performed once, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Let's face it what you really want to say is:

Wolverine = Captain America = Elektra (more or less)

so...

Wolverine/Shiva > Dragon/Shiva/Turner

I imagine your protestations about Batman could likewise be applied to Wolverine. 131

I only used Wolverine in the equation in the first place because people seem to have a problem with a member of Shang Chi's own Rouge gallery saying that Captain America was more skilled then Chi... or at least there is some dispute as to if he was serious or not.

But yeah. 🙂

... except for the Wolverine/Shiva part

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If

Shiva > Batman

and

Shang Chi = Shiva

then

Shang Chi > Batman

Now

Wolverine > Shang Chi

and

Wolverine = Captain America (more or less)

so...

Captain America > Shang Chi

and

Captian America > Dragon/Shiva/Turner

A) Shang Chi>Captain America

B) The above equation makes no sense at all since Turner nor Dragon were indicted into the equation into the very end.

It's like saying:

A>B

B>C

Therefore

A>Z, L, and M

Even though I never added Z, L and M in the first place.

It don't make no sense...

😎

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
But seriously though, I know a lot of people feel compelled to throw Batman a bone and say he is as skilled or more skilled the Captain America... but why? There is nothing to suggest that Batman is on the same level as Captain America. Captain America is number one in marvel, many MAS have said as much... where as Batman is lucky to make the top five in DC. Why are these people better then Captain America, a guy who has been said to be the best and who has been said to have mastered every known fighting style? Why? It makes no sense. The only reason being that people are desperately trying to grasp on to the notion that Batman = Captain America... which is base on nothing.

According Zaran, right?

Zaran must be a cosmic overseer with omnipotent knowledge am I right?

😐

Most people would agree that Batman is more skilled than Captain America in MA.

You're the ONLY person I've met that made the audacious claim that Captain America is the BEST MA in Marvel and even more suggest that Captain America is better than Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger all together.

It's just not true.

It's really no more different from the Hulk fanboyism rampant on these forums...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... except for the Wolverine/Shiva part

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I only used Wolverine in the equation in the first place because people seem to have a problem with a member of Shang Chi's own Rouge gallery saying that Captain America was more skilled then Chi... or at least there is some dispute as to if he was serious or not.

Originally posted by Soljer
I just wanted to point out; I've heard the "Captain America didn't have TIME to get that skilled!" argument thrown around so often....

It's a comic book. It's supposed to be unrealistic. If a kid can get super powers from a cancerous spider bite, Captain America can have mastered every martial art on the planet with little to no training. Seriously.

Not to mention the fact that Cap has been shown to learn martial arts at an INSANE rate. He learned an entire alien martial art after watching it being performed once, if I recall correctly.

So did Batman. He learned the Thangarian martial arts after watching Hawkwoman spar with Shiak.

Though let's use some common freaking sense here people.

Captain America had relatively at the most a decade of training.

And you people are saying that he's better than people who've trained their whole lives with absolutely no interupptions AND became more versed via global travels?

That's just bull.

It's like saying a person who took an online course in Greek History has more knowledge than a person who has a Phd in Greek History from Harvard, a Masters from Oxford, spent his entire life learning Greek History from professional tutors, and timetraveled to Ancient Greece on several occasions.

😐

Chi isn't superior to Captain America. Batroc would know.

Not to mention the fact that Iron Fist, Chi's equal in skill, was straight up TOLD by Captain America "You're good, son, but I'm better."

Originally posted by Draco69

And you people are saying that he's better than people who've trained their whole lives with absolutely no interupptions AND became more versed via global travels?

Yes. 😐

As is Batman. HE had no time to master well over a hundred martial arts, but we accept the fact that he did. It's the same thing. I admit, to a greater extent with Captain America, but the same thing none the less. You are trying to apply 'common sense' because martial skill is something that DOES exist in the real world...

But it doesn't work that way. You have to keep the comic book perspective. Captain America is one of the best fighters on the planet, and he IS in the tier of Wayne/Shiva/Cass/Dragon. Now, I'm not saying he's BETTER than them. But in the same class? Absolutely.

[
Batman is not 40-60 years old. he's in his early to mid 30s. How old do you think Dick Grayson is? he's been around almost since the beginning of batman's crime fighting career and he's only in his mid to late 20s. [/B][/QUOTE]

Batman's actually about 38-39 years old. thats near 40. imagine that. he's almost near his mid life crisis...I wonder what DC will come up with for that!!!! 😘

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes. 😐

As is Batman. HE had no time to master well over a hundred martial arts, but we accept the fact that he did. It's the same thing. I admit, to a greater extent with Captain America, but the same thing none the less. You are trying to apply 'common sense' because martial skill is something that DOES exist in the real world...

But it doesn't work that way. You have to keep the comic book perspective. Captain America is one of the best fighters on the planet, and he IS in the tier of Wayne/Shiva/Cass/Dragon. Now, I'm not saying he's BETTER than them. But in the same class? Absolutely.

I can use hearsay too!

:EEK:

Originally posted by Superherovandal
[
Batman is not 40-60 years old. he's in his early to mid 30s. How old do you think Dick Grayson is? he's been around almost since the beginning of batman's crime fighting career and he's only in his mid to late 20s.

Batman's actually about 38-39 years old. thats near 40. imagine that. he's almost near his mid life crisis...I wonder what DC will come up with for that!!!! 😘 [/B][/QUOTE]

Well...he's already got the car, and it's not like he's interested in the ladies....

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes. 😐

As is Batman. HE had no time to master well over a hundred martial arts, but we accept the fact that he did. It's the same thing. I admit, to a greater extent with Captain America, but the same thing none the less. You are trying to apply 'common sense' because martial skill is something that DOES exist in the real world...

Which doesn't show who he trained with. Or when he trained. Or how he trained.

Who were his teachers? Where did he train?

I'm all for comicbook perspective...as long as there's a decent explanation for it.

Batman has one. A poor one. But a explanation none the less.

I'm not gonna accept that Cap mastered every form of martial arts during WWII in a bunker camp in less than three years any more than Sentry's 1 million exploding sun crap....

Originally posted by Soljer
But it doesn't work that way. You have to keep the comic book perspective. Captain America is one of the best fighters on the planet, and he IS in the tier of Wayne/Shiva/Cass/Dragon. Now, I'm not saying he's BETTER than them. But in the same class? Absolutely.

Not really. He's close. Until I see Cap pull out nerve strikes that can stop a man's blood flow to his brain or use mystical kung-fu to heal himself...

Originally posted by Draco69
A) Shang Chi>Captain America

🙄

Nope.

Originally posted by Draco69
B) The above equation makes no sense at all since Turner nor Dragon were indicted into the equation into the very end.

It don't make no sense...

I removed part of the equation when complications arose about Turner being slightly less skilled then Shiva and Dragon and forgot to edit the other instance where they were mentioned.

But since it seems to have confused you so

Shiva=Dragon=Turner

😎

Originally posted by Draco69
B)According Zaran, right?

Zaran must be a cosmic overseer with omnipotent knowledge am I right?

😐

If only one person is qualified to comment on the level of Shang Chi's skill (and we ignore Fu Manchu) don't you think Zaran might be a good choice? If I bring up Nightwing commenting on Connor and Shiva's fight and insinuating that not only Shiva is a better fighter then Batman but Connor is also, will you cry wolf?

I think Zaran is pretty qualified to on Shang Chi matters that this is a non-issue.

Originally posted by Draco69
Most people would agree that Batman is more skilled than Captain America in MA.

You're the ONLY person I've met that made the audacious claim that Captain America is the BEST MA in Marvel and even more suggest that Captain America is better than Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger all together.

It's just not true.

It's really no more different from the Hulk fanboyism rampant on these forums...

When have the majority of people ever been right?

Captain America is the best street level martial artist. What evidence is their to the contrary? He has been said to have mastered every martial art. He has been said to be better then Shang Chi. I'm pretty sure he has even been out right called the best. Even if you don't like what has been present, at least their is something to what I'm saying other then "Nuh-uh, Shang Chi is better."

Originally posted by Superherovandal
[
Batman is not 40-60 years old. he's in his early to mid 30s. How old do you think Dick Grayson is? he's been around almost since the beginning of batman's crime fighting career and he's only in his mid to late 20s.

Batman's actually about 38-39 years old. thats near 40. imagine that. he's almost near his mid life crisis...I wonder what DC will come up with for that!!!! 😘 [/B][/QUOTE]

Batman is 60 years old. He was dipped into the Lazarus Pit several times.

He was old enough to remember Alan Scott as Green Lantern fight Icicle BEFORE WWII.

Batman started his Batman career when he was 20. Dick started out as Robin when he was ten or eleven.

Doing the math, and to count that Dick is about 25....

Originally posted by Draco69
[B]So did Batman. He learned the Thangarian martial arts after watching Hawkwoman spar with Shiak.

Though let's use some common freaking sense here people.

Captain America had relatively at the most a decade of training.

He has at least 15 years. trained from 1940-1945, and again from when he was revived to present, which is another decade. Keep in mind that ALL of Captain's training was done by the best that the U.S. could possibly provide from day ONE. If any john doe is trained for a decade and a half by masters of his discipline, whether it be physics, sports, chess, or whatever, he's going to be pretty damn good.

And you people are saying that he's better than people who've trained their whole lives with absolutely no interupptions AND became more versed via global travels?

People who are at their absolute oldest in their mid 30s? definitely. Batman didn't begin training until his mid to late teens. how good do you suppose he is again?

I don't know where you're getting "more well versed in global travels" since the leader of the avengers, sole super soldier for the US government and operative of S.H.I.E.L.D. would arguably have some pretty extensive resources and just MIGHT be fairly well traveled.

Originally posted by Draco69
I can use hearsay too!

:EEK:

That was Zaran II... or was it III? Never mind, he was noob and wasn't qualified to make that assessment. Or at least that's my story. 😎

I think that was a brain fart on the part of Jeph Loeb. No way that he's 60. You wanna know why? well the fact is he met Dick in his Year Two comic series. So he was about 26. So Dick would be about 11 or 12. so hes' about 25. so that would be approximately 13 years. So that would make him 39 or maybe 40

I love how People keep saying "He's said to be the best" or " he knows it all"

The same has been said about everything in comics 😐

Heresay doesn't mean shit.But if suddenly it does then,Jonns better than Supes,Robins a better MA than Nightwing,Batman could never beat Red Hood,Morlun hits harder than Hulk,Sentry can destroy a solar system and stalemate Big G,Odin should have been the most powerful being in the Multi-verse and Hulk can supasse eternity in stremgth.

Statem,ents can be a usefeul guidline,but if you use them as evidence,your a retard.