Captain America versus Lady Shiva

Originally posted by Space M ummy
He has at least 15 years. trained from 1940-1945, and again from when he was revived to present, which is another decade. Keep in mind that ALL of Captain's training was done by the best that the U.S. could possibly provide from day ONE. If any john doe is trained for a decade and a half by masters of his discipline, whether it be physics, sports, chess, or whatever, he's going to be pretty damn good.

People who are at their absolute oldest in their mid 30s? definitely. Batman didn't begin training until his mid to late teens. how good do you suppose he is again?

I don't know where you're getting "more well versed in global travels" since the leader of the avengers, sole super soldier for the US government and operative of S.H.I.E.L.D. would arguably have some pretty extensive resources and just MIGHT be fairly well traveled.

Unless there has been a retcon, Shiva didn't become a serious martial artist until after her sister was killed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
🙄

Nope.

I removed part of the equation when complications arose about Turner being slightly less skilled then Shiva and Dragon and forgot to edit the other instance where they were mentioned.

But since it seems to have confused you so

Shiva=Dragon=Turner

😎

If only one person is qualified to comment on the level of Shang Chi's skill (and we ignore Fu Manchu) don't you think Zaran might be a good choice? If I bring up Nightwing commenting on Connor and Shiva's fight and insinuating that not only Shiva is a better fighter then Batman but Connor is also, will you cry wolf?

I think Zaran is pretty qualified to on Shang Chi matters that this is a non-issue.

When have the majority of people ever been right?

Captain America is the best street level martial artist. What evidence is their to the contrary? He has been said to have mastered every martial art. He has been said to be better then Shang Chi. I'm pretty sure he has even been out right called the best. Even if you don't like what has been present, at least their is something to what I'm saying other then "Nuh-uh, Shang Chi is better."

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I love how People keep saying "He's said to be the best" or " he knows it all"

The same has been said about everything in comics 😐

Heresay doesn't mean shit.But if suddenly it does then,Jonns better than Supes,Robins a better MA than Nightwing,Batman could never beat Red Hood,Morlun hits harder than Hulk,Sentry can destroy a solar system and stalemate Big G,Odin should have been the most powerful being in the Multi-verse and Hulk can supasse eternity in stremgth.

Statem,ents can be a usefeul guidline,but if you use them as evidence,your a retard.

And Supes Blue? The most powerful in the omniverse.

She still fought more than Steve did. He was too busy being a sickly little boy and asking the US govt for super-steroids in order to be their poster-boy. Also after Shiva was trained by Dragon she'd go around from dojo to dojo and temple to temple learning their fighting style and then killing the head-sensei on her own HTH when she was done.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Unless there has been a retcon, Shiva didn't become a serious martial artist until after her sister was killed.

She and her sister sparred every day and were considered Top-tier Martial Artists by David Cain already,that was a holding back Shiva......Then she got serious.

Shiva would take it. Take a look at what Moon Dragon did to Capt A.

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman > all those guys. 🙂
Your whole theory that he isn't falls through when the truth remains that he's stalemated or defeated all of those DC characters, oftentimes while not going all out at all.

Only because he has never had a real fight with any of the top three. He stalemate Dragon because Dragon didn't want to fight Batman... he was barely bothering with him. Hell, in Richard Dragons last run he went as far as calling Batman "a talented amateur". Batman has never beat Shiva in a fair fight, he has won with the help of Robin cold cocking her and her being under the influence of mind control. He has stated that he has never beat her and it has been said and implied many times that he is less skilled then Shiva, so we know what DC's stance on the matter is.

All that is ignoring that unlike Shiva or Dragon, Batman relies on more then just martial skill when he is in a fight. In terms on pure combat skill, he does compare to them.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Firstly between 1940-45 he'd be kinda busy fighting Nazi's. He wouldn't have time to learn martial arts. Then he'd come back very tired or even injured. So how would he be studying. and also I doubt that they'd be able to bring martial arts experts to the front or go back home when Nazi's would be firing on them. Also considering for many years Shiva spent her life studying with martial arts masters and then killing them in one on one HtH combat when she learned everything she needed from them I'd say that she'd be way more fight-experienced and better martial arts wise.

you're under the impression that cap was a frontline grunt. he wasn't.
from marvel.com:

After the assassination of Dr. Erskine. Roger was re-imagined as a superhero who served both as a counter-intelligence agent and a propaganda symbol to counter Nazi Germany's head of terrorist operations, the Red Skull.

plenty of time for training during WWII, unless you think the US government just put him out there to counter the red skull with no training whatsoever.

Also consider that unlike Batman/Bruce wayne, Cap has no cover identity to maintain. no time spent maintaining wayne enterprises, or keeping up the playboy facade. No time spent pretending to be a photographer like Parker, or a reporter like Kent. His job is the be Captain America 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, from the second he took the super soldier formula.

as for "tired" Captain america's body produces no fatigue poisons, and doesn't tire. He could theoretically train from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed at max output all day every day with no side effects. unlike batman and shiva, who can't, as they're only human. Rogers can theoretically make much MORE of the time he has than either of those two.

CAPT'S MIND IS NOT ENCHANCED AT ALL

Exept that the comicbooks tells us it is.
Here's a scan.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/CAtransformation.png

Originally posted by Martian_mind
She and her sister sparred every day and were considered Top-tier Martial Artists by David Cain already,that was a holding back Shiva......Then she got serious.

No she wasn't, that's why Cain killed her sister. To motivate her and drive her to perfection, her sister was holding her back.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Only because he has never had a real fight with any of the top three. He stalemate Dragon because Dragon didn't want to fight Batman... he was barely bothering with him. Hell, in Richard Dragons last run he went as far as calling Batman "a talented amateur". Batman has never beat Shiva in a fair fight, he has won with the help of Robin cold cocking her and her being under the influence of mind control. He has stated that he has never beat her and it has been said and implied many times that he is less skilled then Shiva, so we know what DC's stance on the matter is.

All that is ignoring that unlike Shiva or Dragon, Batman relies on more then just martial skill when he is in a fight. In terms on pure combat skill, he does compare to them.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No she wasn't, that's why Cain killed her sister. To motivate her and drive her to perfection, her sister was holding her back.

Exactly....she was going easy on her sister like i said,and even then she held out against the league of shadows,So she had way more training then Cap has ever had.

Originally posted by Juntai
Dragon can say all he once, and you make up all the excuses you want, but what I said still holds true. None of those characters have defeated Batman in any circumstance.

They've never beat Batman because they've never had an actual fight with him in a fair one on one fight.

Shiva is primarily a Batman foe, the whole premise behind her is that she is a better fighter the Batman.... but that isn't enough for you?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They've never beat Batman because they've never had an actual fight with him. Shiva is primarily a Batman foe, the whole premise behind her is that she is a better fighter the Batman.... but that isn't enough for you?

The original Premise behind wolverine was that he was a mutated woverine with claws on his gloves.Intentions change over the years,and just like wolverine has been shown to not be that,Shiva hasn't shown to be a better Ma than Batman.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
The original Premise behind wolverine was that he was a mutated woverine with claws on his gloves.Intentions change over the years,and just like wolverine has been shown to not be that,Shiva hasn't shown to be a better Ma than Batman.

What you mean to say is "Shiva has never beaten Batman" not "She has shown she is a better MA." It's pretty clear the stance DC has taken on this matter, they just haven't had shown Shiva owning Batman on panel yet... they probably thought all the subtle hints and blunt statements attesting to the fact that Shiva is better the Batman were enough. Clearly they were wrong.

Captain America can sense incoming attacks via air currents. Even from opponents as skilled as T'Challa.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coc004195wg.jpg

The Hand has stated that Captain America knows their martial arts:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruxm268pg024zr.jpg

He dislocates a thug's shoulder with a mere touch:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p108la.jpg

He has made Spidey's legs go numb with a single nerve strike.
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53419qu5.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53420er2.jpg

Pressure to the External Carotid Artery:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica329042ko.jpg

Another one-nerve-strike-KO:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capamericav134320rougher9cm.jpg

Puts down a superhuman werewolf with a nerve strike:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica164179ax.jpg

Daredevil calls Captain America one of the world's greatest combatants. Daredevil would know, yeah?
http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p168lo.jpg

Here, Logan talks about the Skills that Taskmaster has copied. He saves the best for last, "Even the likes of Captain America himself!"
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page116fq.jpg

The captions read about how Captain America cracks Mr. Hyde's ribs via skill, and then knocks him the **** out.
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica152215qs.jpg

He knocks the shit out of superhuman Boxers like Bantam while remarking about how decades of fighting have honed his skill second to none.

His pressure points have registered on the Hulk on multiple occasions.

Also, I believe this scan sums it up perfectly http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3034161pe.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What you mean to say is "Shiva has never beaten Batman" not "She has shown she is a better MA." It's pretty clear the stance DC has taken on this matter, they just haven't had shown Shiva owning Batman on panel yet... they probably thought all the subtle hints and blunt statements attesting to the fact that Shiva is better the Batman were enough. Clearly they were wrong.

Again with Statements....you need to realise they don't mean shit,and tell me,have you seen their fights beforee?Shiva has never had the advntage in any confrontation between them.Hell Batman once casually tore away a pair of nunchuks from her.

So again,it's feats and showings we care about here,not dodgy statements or subtle hints.I thought the amount of time you've been here would be enough for you to understand that.

Originally posted by Soljer
Captain America can sense incoming attacks via air currents. Even from opponents as skilled as T'Challa.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coc004195wg.jpg

The Hand has stated that Captain America knows their martial arts:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruxm268pg024zr.jpg

He dislocates a thug's shoulder with a mere touch:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p108la.jpg

He has made Spidey's legs go numb with a single nerve strike.
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53419qu5.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53420er2.jpg

Pressure to the External Carotid Artery:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica329042ko.jpg

Another one-nerve-strike-KO:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capamericav134320rougher9cm.jpg

Puts down a superhuman werewolf with a nerve strike:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica164179ax.jpg

Daredevil calls Captain America one of the world's greatest combatants. Daredevil would know, yeah?
http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p168lo.jpg

Here, Logan talks about the Skills that Taskmaster has copied. He saves the best for last, "Even the likes of Captain America himself!"
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page116fq.jpg

The captions read about how Captain America cracks Mr. Hyde's ribs via skill, and then knocks him the **** out.
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica152215qs.jpg

He knocks the shit out of superhuman Boxers like Bantam while remarking about how decades of fighting have honed his skill second to none.

His pressure points have registered on the Hulk on multiple occasions.

Also, I believe this scan sums it up [b]perfectly http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3034161pe.jpg [/B]

....So you show a bunch of nerve strikes that Batman,Dragon and Shiva have all been shown as capable of doing as though it shows his superiority?Riiight

You show a holding back-out of practice DD saying Caps one of the worlds greatest combatants......we all know that,but that is because of his enhancements and skills,had he said Martial artist or most skilled that scan might have meant something.

Mr Hyde is pathetic,you and i both know that.

That last scan.....So he mentions Captain America last....thats because out of all those men he respects Cap the most,if we're going by statements,then technically Cap wouldn't be any better than Wolverine at all.Also whoever that guy is treats one of Caps best finshing moves like nothing.....

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Again with Statements....you need to realise they don't mean shit,and tell me,have you seen their fights beforee?Shiva has never had the advntage in any confrontation between them.Hell Batman once casually tore away a pair of nunchuks from her.

So again,it's feats and showings we care about here,not dodgy statements or subtle hints.I thought the amount of time you've been here would be enough for you to understand that.

Lets use ABC logic then. Bronze Tiger has thrashed Batman and Shiva and Dragon are better then Turner. Even when Batman took "every precaution" he still would have lost to Turner had the fight not been interupted... and I think Turner even had the advatage in a third fight before the JLA broke it up. Aside from the fact that Shiva hasn't beaten Batman, there is nothing to sugest that he is as skilled as she is. Can I make an arguement for Punisher being as skilled as Shang Chi, because Shang has never fought him? No, no I can't.