I know that I am most likely going to get flooded with theories or be called a blind follower but I don't care. It has to be said.
Science never has and never will contradict God or the Bible.
Thus proving that he can not be proven to be un-real but at the same time can not be proven as real. It is honestly a march of blind faith. Hope might be a better description.
correction, science has and always WILL contradict the bible and the biblical version of god.
science never has nor ever will{probably} contradict the existance of "a" POSSIBLE GOD{NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE}, who does not suffer from the contradictions{worldly and self contradictions} of the god of the bible or the god of most other major relegions.
sigh, its late and i really do not wanna go into this right now. contradictions between god's attributes themselves.
omipotence/omnipotence: nothing can be all powerful, as all powerful implies ability to do anything. which means being able to create some1 more powerful than yourself. but the very possibility of a being more powerful than urself means you arent ALL powerful. while being unable to create such a being also means you are lacking and not ALL powerful
omnipotence/omniscience: if you know all things, than you know what you yourself are going to do in the future for a certainty. but if that is true, then you lack the power to change it, which means you are not omnipotent. if you can infact change it , then u are not omniscient as you didnt know perfectly what you were gona do.
omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolance: if god knows all, and has the power to change all and also loves everything perfectly, then he would never let his creation suffer and there wudnt exist hate in this world. for god who loves his creation wold never design the worls in a way as to make it suffer. but infact, this world is defined by suffering. he definately wold not create hell.
omnipotence/omniscience/free will: if god knows the future, then he knows exactly who will do what in the future. which means, reguardless of us trying, we can never escape our fate. which means we have no free will , contrary to the bible. it also means that we are not responsible for our actions and shudnt be punished for what we do. also, if god knew every outcome of creation before he created us, then he DESIGNED us to do exactly what we are doing, which means he INTENDED for everything good and BAD in this world to happen. not only is this against free will and punishment, but also against god being all loving.
god's decision to create the world if he is omnipotent: if god is omnipotent, then why did he have to create ANYTHING{angels, this universe, heaven , hell etc} outside his own perfetc existance? only two motivations exist for any action, desire or necessity. god, who posesses all things and is perfect in himself can not feal desire, because he alreasy has everything and anything that exists. also, god has everything, which means he can not NEED anything, which means no necessity. if he truly was omnipotent then why did he create the world? or anything outside his own existance?
also, these are the very BASIC things. there are lots more, more easier practical contradictions and logical fallacies in the bible. as well as incorrect history, illogical rules, illogical beleifs, and unfulfilled prophecies etc etc etc.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
sigh, its late and i really do not wanna go into this right now. contradictions between god's attributes themselves.omipotence/omnipotence: nothing can be all powerful, as all powerful implies ability to do anything. which means being able to create some1 more powerful than yourself. but the very possibility of a being more powerful than urself means you arent ALL powerful. while being unable to create such a being also means you are lacking and not ALL powerful
omnipotence/omniscience: if you know all things, than you know what you yourself are going to do in the future for a certainty. but if that is true, then you lack the power to change it, which means you are not omnipotent. if you can infact change it , then u are not omniscient as you didnt know perfectly what you were gona do.
omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolance: if god knows all, and has the power to change all and also loves everything perfectly, then he would never let his creation suffer and there wudnt exist hate in this world. for god who loves his creation wold never design the worls in a way as to make it suffer. but infact, this world is defined by suffering. he definately wold not create hell.
omnipotence/omniscience/free will: if god knows the future, then he knows exactly who will do what in the future. which means, reguardless of us trying, we can never escape our fate. which means we have no free will , contrary to the bible. it also means that we are not responsible for our actions and shudnt be punished for what we do. also, if god knew every outcome of creation before he created us, then he DESIGNED us to do exactly what we are doing, which means he INTENDED for everything good and BAD in this world to happen. not only is this against free will and punishment, but also against god being all loving.
god's decision to create the world if he is omnipotent: if god is omnipotent, then why did he have to create ANYTHING{angels, this universe, heaven , hell etc} outside his own perfetc existance? only two motivations exist for any action, desire or necessity. god, who posesses all things and is perfect in himself can not feal desire, because he alreasy has everything and anything that exists. also, god has everything, which means he can not NEED anything, which means no necessity. if he truly was omnipotent then why did he create the world? or anything outside his own existance?
also, these are the very BASIC things. there are lots more, more easier practical contradictions and logical fallacies in the bible. as well as incorrect history, illogical rules, illogical beleifs, and unfulfilled prophecies etc etc etc.
1. If God is all powerful then why would he need to obey the laws of HUMAN logic. No one can even begin to comprehend God so how can you truly judge an infallable being with flawed logic.
2. God knows all and what he does. God is infallable which means anything he does is good because that is all he wishes to do. No future is set in stone and one being that knows all that will happen has the ability to change it all will.
3. He allows us to suffer because we broke one very simple rule. Honeslty the forbidden fruit was not the bad thing. It was the breaking of trust. Just like when a child does something it's mother tells it not to it gets punished.
4. God does know what we are going to do no matter what we do but we have an unlimited range of what we can do. God knows what will happen no matter what you choose to do. A simple illustration would be, He knows what you will do if you choose door A and He also knows if you choose door B.
5. God did not desire nor require our existance. He made us as a testament to his power. It's almost like an experiement just He knows what the outcome will be in the end. God created us so that we could give praise to Him. It's almost like an expiriment of who is smarter.
I can give much better answers than these but I'll have to drive home and get my notes.
. If God is all powerful then why would he need to obey the laws of HUMAN logic. No one can even begin to comprehend God so how can you truly judge an infallable being with flawed logic.
it is not HUMAN logic. it is logic that the universe reveals in its working. if a=b and b=c then a=c. emperical laws as such are not dreamt up by humans. and how do you know that no1 can begin to comprehend god? give me evidence for it or you have no argument. and you also fail because god has given rather defined insturctions on what is right and what is wrong, and what HE would like you to do, that means that he HAS limited himself by DEFINING himself and as such is not completely beyond human conprehension. omnipotent=/= trancendant. i didnt say that god was trancendant, nor does the bible. and it isnt FLAWED logic.
also, you have not answered by point. omnipotence is self contradictory.
2. God knows all and what he does. God is infallable which means anything he does is good because that is all he wishes to do. No future is set in stone and one being that knows all that will happen has the ability to change it all will.
no, you first have to prove that god is infalliable. you are using circular logic. there is enormous evidence to suggest that he is infact falliable. and you havent adressed the point, if god in omniscient, and knows what he is going to do, {and knows it PERFECTLY, hence the OMNIscience} then the future IS set in stone and he does not have the power to change it, hence negating his omipotence.
3. He allows us to suffer because we broke one very simple rule. Honeslty the forbidden fruit was not the bad thing. It was the breaking of trust. Just like when a child does something it's mother tells it not to it gets punished.
false. YOU did not break any rule at birth or before it. it was adam and EVE who broke it and its completely stupid and illogical to say that you are responsible for their sin. you didnt exist then, they had different minds/conciousness from you, and they did not ask YOU before they broke god's trust.
and you are straying off topic and have not answered my point. if god is omnipotent and omnicsient, while also omnibenevolant, then there would be no suffering in a wolrd of his making. yet that is not true.
4. God does know what we are going to do no matter what we do but we have an unlimited range of what we can do. God knows what will happen no matter what you choose to do. A simple illustration would be, He knows what you will do if you choose door A and He also knows if you choose door B.
untrue. god not only knows what lies behind each door but he also knws WHICH door we will choose WITHOUT FAIL. that is what omniscience means, ability to see ALL, including the actual decision that you will make. you have also not replied to the point about god INTENDING us to do all that we do as he was omniscient when he actually created the wolrd
5. God did not desire nor require our existance. He made us as a testament to his power. It's almost like an experiement just He knows what the outcome will be in the end. God created us so that we could give praise to Him. It's almost like an expiriment of who is smarter.
erm, why would he WANT to show off his power??? why would he WANT our praise? you are implying that he either DESIRES, or NEEDS to show off his power{hence us being a TESTAMENT to it}, neither of which can be attributed to a perfect omnipotent entity. you are also implying that he desires/needs our praise, which again takes away his perfection and omnipotence.
I can give much better answers than these but I'll have to drive home and get my notes.
i doubt it{nuthing against u}. i have not once heard a satisfactory answer to such question in the confines of god's attributed traits.
please, your flattering me. really, i can be a complete idiot at times 😛, also, i do think i was a bit more aggressive than was necessary. {lack of self control}. what i said cud have been said in a nicer way now that i think about it.{specially since the opposition is a fellow anime/cwboy bebop lover like myself}. anyway, i wanted to say that it wasnt intentional swimming bird 🙂 . peace.
Come on, if this is science we are speaking you can't prove pretty much anything. Mathematics get to do logical proofs, physics repeat the same thing time over time until they are sure the event doesn't change. Ask a mathematician, thats not an actual proof, there is always a shadow of doubt as the method works from limits of perception itself.
You cannot physically proof whether God exists or not, your best shot is to imply by maths that he cannot be there, otherwise you will have not a hard proof for anything.
I think that the important part of the argument is that, while you cannot quite place God by its nature, you can place science by its method, and by the things we know about science we have enough to suspect the nature of God can't be proven. Its not possible to argue if God exist, but its possible to place if you can prove its existence or not.
Originally posted by leonheartmmI would just like to point out you make a lot of your case based on evidence in which you claim to know what an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient being would do.
it is not HUMAN logic. it is logic that the universe reveals in its working. if a=b and b=c then a=c. emperical laws as such are not dreamt up by humans. and how do you know that no1 can begin to comprehend god? give me evidence for it or you have no argument. and you also fail because god has given rather defined insturctions on what is right and what is wrong, and what HE would like you to do, that means that he HAS limited himself by DEFINING himself and as such is not completely beyond human conprehension. omnipotent=/= trancendant. i didnt say that god was trancendant, nor does the bible. and it isnt FLAWED logic.
also, you have not answered by point. omnipotence is self contradictory.no, you first have to prove that god is infalliable. you are using circular logic. there is enormous evidence to suggest that he is infact falliable. and you havent adressed the point, if god in omniscient, and knows what he is going to do, {and knows it PERFECTLY, hence the OMNIscience} then the future IS set in stone and he does not have the power to change it, hence negating his omipotence.
false. YOU did not break any rule at birth or before it. it was adam and EVE who broke it and its completely stupid and illogical to say that you are responsible for their sin. you didnt exist then, they had different minds/conciousness from you, and they did not ask YOU before they broke god's trust.
and you are straying off topic and have not answered my point. if god is omnipotent and omnicsient, while also omnibenevolant, then there would be no suffering in a wolrd of his making. yet that is not true.untrue. god not only knows what lies behind each door but he also knws WHICH door we will choose WITHOUT FAIL. that is what omniscience means, ability to see ALL, including the actual decision that you will make. you have also not replied to the point about god INTENDING us to do all that we do as he was omniscient when he actually created the wolrd
erm, why would he WANT to show off his power??? why would he WANT our praise? you are implying that he either DESIRES, or NEEDS to show off his power{hence us being a TESTAMENT to it}, neither of which can be attributed to a perfect omnipotent entity. you are also implying that he desires/needs our praise, which again takes away his perfection and omnipotence.
i doubt it{nuthing against u}. i have not once heard a satisfactory answer to such question in the confines of god's attributed traits.
I would just like to ask what evidence do you have backing your claims that you know what an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient person would do?
Originally posted by Newjak
I would just like to point out you make a lot of your case based on evidence in which you claim to know what an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient being would do.I would just like to ask what evidence do you have backing your claims that you know what an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient person would do?
No one can know anything about what an Omnipotent, and Omniscient person would do, not even religious leaders.