Originally posted by The Corewhat about Mos Def? he sings in his songs. same with P.O.S., Tonedeff, Pharoahe Monch, Cee-Lo etc...
50 Cent. The Game. RUN DMC. Treach. Ghostface. KRS-ONE. You name it. They aren't hitting high notes or showing off like some opera tenor. They're rhyming words as if they were speaking. Putting emphasis on a slang term or name isn't the same as singing, which is my defying rapping being the same as singing.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
B) Yes, so stop calling it rap. It's rapping, like singING.
Some people might not think so off the bat, but if you add effects on it like delay and flanger...well, then maybe it's more like an instrument. And if you have it going through a vocoder, well, even more so, right?
I'm saying the voice is an instrument, so rap-PING (coming from someone's voice) has as much musicality as any other instrument...that's what I'm saying.
...and just read some of the last posts, and it seems people are doing what I'm saying is going into "iffy" areas.
My example of the Beastie Boys' "So Watcha Want" is perfect in showing how there's that in between of hitting notes (basically singing), and just reading out lyrics. But the song wouldn't be as effective if they just read out words...there's a tone or pitch they're hitting to get the sound they want musically.
As far as 50, he's totally all over the place with his intonation, pitch...he's very musical. He even sings a lot as well. But he can also just be very dry and flat on purpose when he delivers some of his lyrics, which is cool.
Originally posted by The Core
50 Cent. The Game. RUN DMC. Treach. Ghostface. KRS-ONE. You name it. They aren't hitting high notes or showing off like some opera tenor. They're rhyming words as if they were speaking. Putting emphasis on a slang term or name isn't the same as singing, which is my defying rapping being the same as singing.
I'm not saying it's the same as singing. I'm saying they are both acts. I was more picking at the way he's using the actual word, not what it means.
To say there aren't notes is one thing, to say rapping is monotone is just ridiculous.
-AC
Originally posted by The CoreYes they are "seperate ways to execute vocals musically"...they're both very musical, very creative, and have a lot of musicality to them. And an opera singer can't do what a rapper does as good as they do, and vice-versa.
Show me some sheet music for these "rappers", and then maybe I'll consider them singers.Until then, they are two totally seperate ways to execute vocals musically.
And the fact that when you hear "So Watcha Want" live and they're hitting more or less the same notes, tones, whatever, and it sounds like the original recording...implies they're being musical about it. They could make sheet music if they really wanted to I guess, because there's a certain way the song goes.
Kinda like there's a certain way the vocals in Ministry's "Jesus Built My Hotrod" go. I doubt there's sheet music for that either...but it's basically a guy going "meh-meh-me me meh-meh-meh-meh". Still musical though, and certain notes are being hit. It's still singing...as is screaming in screamo (pardon the term), or wailing in african tribal music.
What isn't really musical is...talking.
And then poetry lies a bit closer to being musical...but as I said before, it's more about the rhyme and cadence of what's already on the page, and less about delivering it by hitting certain notes, tones and pitches...which is definitely what a lot of rap-PING is.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying it's the same as singing. I'm saying they are both acts. I was more picking at the way he's using the actual word, not what it means.To say there aren't notes is one thing, to say rapping is monotone is just ridiculous.
-AC
There's a lot in a common (or mainstream) rapper's delivery that's monotone. I just think it's silly to compare rappers to singers. They're on two totally different levels. Just because Fitty shows a little inflection doesn't mean he's able to hold notes, nail stanzas, and all that jazz.
..and I've heard Mos Def's "Travelin' Man", so I know where Hh is comin' from, but it's not like it's the body of the work.
Fifty can in fact hold notes though. He does it...I doubt he can do it very well, or even for very long, and I'm not saying he's Sinatra or anything. What he does though overall in his vocals has as much musicality to it as what Michael Buble does.
Buble would fail miserably if he tried to do what Fifty does, as would Fifty fail miserably if he tried to do what Buble does. But people look at Buble's singing and say, "oh that's real music", because they think it has more musicality to it. I don't get that.
I've explained what I think musicality can be...it's pretty open. And when we're talking about rapping, Biggie is the best example I can think of as having incredible musicality in his vocals alone...more than a lot of other non-hip-hop genre singers do.
Originally posted by The Core
There's a lot in a common (or mainstream) rapper's delivery that's monotone. I just think it's silly to compare rappers to singers. They're on two totally different levels. Just because Fitty shows a little inflection doesn't mean he's able to hold notes, nail stanzas, and all that jazz...and I've heard Mos Def's "Travelin' Man", so I know where Hh is comin' from, but it's not like it's the body of the work.
Who's comparing rappers to singers? I'm simply saying that rappers are people and their vocal technique is called rapping. Like singers have a vocal technique called singing.
Nobody truly is monotonous.
-AC
Originally posted by The Core
Show me some sheet music for these "rappers", and then maybe I'll consider them singers.Until then, they are two totally seperate ways to execute vocals musically.
they all sing and rap in their music
singing and rapping are different yes, but they themselves are not so polarized that they define whole genres by a 1 or the other concept. Hence why some artitst prefer to use both as opposed to just rapping, using your logic is Beck a rapper or a singer?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Who's comparing rappers to singers?
EPIII. I was never implying you were.
Originally posted by Tengusinging and rapping are different yes, but they themselves are not so polarized that they define whole genres by a 1 or the other concept. Hence why some artitst prefer to use both as opposed to just rapping, using your logic is Beck a rapper or a singer?
They're not singers by trade, and I said before, using my Mos Def reference, it's not the body of their work.
Cowboy Troy is a country singer, and he raps his lyrics. He's just an artist, but I'm not about to extend that courtesy to everyone just because they change up their signature style on a whim.
Then whats the body of Beck's work or Bone thugz n Harmony?
under what authority or merit can you judge a muscians trade? if beck sings, and wants to be indentified as a rapper, despite the majority of his content being of a mix betwen rapping and singing, then he himself is what he chooses. your polarizing 2 forms of expressions that CAN be used insde of one genre. It isnt just one or the other.
aside from busdriver, nwa, dre, kanye, and biggie, i really couldn't care less.
calling hip-hop rap isn't nearly the same thing as calling rock "sing". for one, hip hop is a term of certain respect. i'd feel funny about calling the freaking yin-yang twins hip-hop. for two, if you refer to 50 as "rap", generally people will know what you're saying. if you call green day "sing", people will have no ****ing idea what you're on about.
I think he was just making a point.
Obviously he knows people wouldn't know what he's talking about if he said "sing" to describe a genre.
Becasue it's better to use the word "rap" to describe the act of doing it (as a verb...or noun), he's showing how ridiculous it is if you took another verb you use to describe something you do (like "sing"😉 and make it a common noun as well to define a genre.
...maybe you get that.
But I also know what you yourself mean about "hip hop" being a term of respect...and referring to music by punk MCs who just wanna be "rap stars", as "rap".
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think he was just making a point. I almost made the same observation, until I realized he had already done it.He's just making a direct comparison between the way the word can be misused both practically and gramatically, and how it's being misused as a common noun to describe a genre.
Obviously he knows people wouldn't know what he's talking about if he said "sing" to describe a genre.
Becasue it's better to use the word "rap" to describe the act of doing it (as a verb...or noun), he's showing how ridiculous it is if you took another verb you use to describe something you do (like "sing"😉 and make it a common noun as well to define a genre.
i know. this explanation is quite unnecessary. i was also "making a point". being: nobody ****ing cares.
Originally posted by manorastroman
aside from busdriver, nwa, dre, kanye, and biggie, i really couldn't care less.calling hip-hop rap isn't nearly the same thing as calling rock "sing". for one, hip hop is a term of certain respect. i'd feel funny about calling the freaking yin-yang twins hip-hop. for two, if you refer to 50 as "rap", generally people will know what you're saying. if you call green day "sing", people will have no ****ing idea what you're on about.
People would also call Cannibal Ox "rap". It's hip hop. Bastardised hip hop or not, it's hip hop. Britney Spears is pop, Michael Jackson is pop. Bastardised, commercialised bs she may be, she's still a pop artist.
You not liking The Yin-Yang Twins being hip hop just shows your insecurity. They are hip hop, but that doesn't mean by calling them that, you are failing to distinguish them in your own mind. You're simply thinking of other people, I don't. I couldn't give a crap whether people know what I'm on about or not, because I know. In any case, smart people who know their stuff usually can grasp it.
Calling a genre based after the most prominent act involved (Rap/Rapping) is precisely like calling rock, which features real singer, sing/singing.
-AC
Originally posted by Tengu
Then whats the body of Beck's work or Bone thugz n Harmony?
under what authority or merit can you judge a muscians trade? if beck sings, and wants to be indentified as a rapper, despite the majority of his content being of a mix betwen rapping and singing, then he himself is what he chooses. your polarizing 2 forms of expressions that CAN be used insde of one genre. It isnt just one or the other.
Bone are rappers, plain and simple. "Crossroads" doesn't make them singers. Beck cannot be defined, and shouldn't even if he's got a rap style delivery, he's still an "alternative" artist. He can call himself whatever he wants, but like "Hip Hop", and the misuse of that term, we'll throw whatever we want on him and call it a day.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You not liking The Yin-Yang Twins being hip hop just shows your insecurity. They are hip hop, but that doesn't mean by calling them that, you are failing to distinguish them in your own mind. You're simply thinking of other people, I don't. I couldn't give a crap whether people know what I'm on about or not, because I know. In any case, smart people who know their stuff usually can grasp it.
..in a nutshell, the exact reason why I don't like publically referring to all rappers as "Hip Hop". It's like calling Limp Bizkit "metal".