Putting it all together...spoilers

Newbie here, just spent all morning at work catching up.

And I must say, there is no chance, and I mean NO CHANCE that Jack will end us with Liz. Granted, the films have shown evidence that she's been having doubts over her feelings towards Jack, but she loves Will. She was going to marry Will, even after meeting Jack. I just can't see Jack and Liz together. Jack is too much of a free spirit to want to be tied down. The whole thing with Gibbs and Jack (with the strumpets) could simply be a parting of the ways for Capt. and First Mate. Jack then looks back because he is off on another adventure.

And the whole "Will Becomes The New Capt. of the FD" angle. Honestly, could anyone see it happening before these scripts came out. He could have stolen the FD while the crew were off attacking another ship. With Davy behind Becket, there could be a case for overthrowing the leaderless crew and taking the Dutchman. Doesn't mean that he's the new Capt. indefinably.

And on those scripts. Have they been authenticated? There could be 101 reasons for that script being leaked, so I personally wouldn't use it as a bible for who the film is going to go.

Although I did enjoy the possible plot lines, I do think you're all reading too much into some things. And Jack will not end up with Liz. Period.

Well, I agree J/E probably won't end up together.

I do think Will becomes captain of the Dutchman.

The scripts are early drafts of the film, so they are "true" in the sense that they were indeed written by TnT, but there have been numerous rewrites, plus the actors sometimes add in lines on their own, not to mention editting.

So no, the scripts aren't a "bible", but they are a good guide on what is most likely going to happen in the film.

Chiki Mina, you have a theory about the sword? Please share. 😄

Originally posted by Kenny16
Newbie here, just spent all morning at work catching up.

And I must say, there is no chance, and I mean NO CHANCE that Jack will end us with Liz. Granted, the films have shown evidence that she's been having doubts over her feelings towards Jack, but she loves Will. She was going to marry Will, even after meeting Jack. I just can't see Jack and Liz together. Jack is too much of a free spirit to want to be tied down. The whole thing with Gibbs and Jack (with the strumpets) could simply be a parting of the ways for Capt. and First Mate. Jack then looks back because he is off on another adventure.

And the whole "Will Becomes The New Capt. of the FD" angle. Honestly, could anyone see it happening before these scripts came out. He could have stolen the FD while the crew were off attacking another ship. With Davy behind Becket, there could be a case for overthrowing the leaderless crew and taking the Dutchman. Doesn't mean that he's the new Capt. indefinably.

And on those scripts. Have they been authenticated? There could be 101 reasons for that script being leaked, so I personally wouldn't use it as a bible for who the film is going to go.

Although I did enjoy the possible plot lines, I do think you're all reading too much into some things. And Jack will not end up with Liz. Period.

Whatever you say, mate...we haven't been studying this film since last July for nothing....and you know what...it's all but written in stone that Will becomes the new Captain of the Flying Dutchman...and ....sure Jack is a free spirit...but so is Elizabeth...and the scripts...well, what I saw in the trailer corresponds exactly witht eh 36 pager that leaked...so those scripts are absolutely on.....

Originally posted by Kenny16
Newbie here, just spent all morning at work catching up.

And I must say, there is no chance, and I mean NO CHANCE that Jack will end us with Liz. Granted, the films have shown evidence that she's been having doubts over her feelings towards Jack, but she loves Will. She was going to marry Will, even after meeting Jack. I just can't see Jack and Liz together. Jack is too much of a free spirit to want to be tied down. The whole thing with Gibbs and Jack (with the strumpets) could simply be a parting of the ways for Capt. and First Mate. Jack then looks back because he is off on another adventure.

And the whole "Will Becomes The New Capt. of the FD" angle. Honestly, could anyone see it happening before these scripts came out. He could have stolen the FD while the crew were off attacking another ship. With Davy behind Becket, there could be a case for overthrowing the leaderless crew and taking the Dutchman. Doesn't mean that he's the new Capt. indefinably.

And on those scripts. Have they been authenticated? There could be 101 reasons for that script being leaked, so I personally wouldn't use it as a bible for who the film is going to go.

Although I did enjoy the possible plot lines, I do think you're all reading too much into some things. And Jack will not end up with Liz. Period.

welcome, Kenny. thanks for catching up. Hope you enjoyed our flights of fancy and the legwork that some of our members have put in to staying on top of spoilers and checking through what may be real and what isn't.

the 36 page script is not the final draft, but it is A draft, and relatively far along in the process. I know the purgatory scenes with Jack have continued to change, but some of the scenes are pretty much set by that point. It gives a good indication where the film is going. if you would like to read it, I'm sure someone would be happy to share.

As to Jack and Liz, we know it's a long shot, but the passion and excitement of the relationship is a blast to discuss and fawn over. So please let us have our fun. We're not saying its absolutely going to happen (or at least, I'm not) but it's still the hottest ship in the Caribbean, and well worth discussing and enjoying.

anyhow, welcome, and I look forward to a continued discussion!

Originally posted by katelovespirate
welcome, Kenny. thanks for catching up. Hope you enjoyed our flights of fancy and the legwork that some of our members have put in to staying on top of spoilers and checking through what may be real and what isn't.

the 36 page script is not the final draft, but it is A draft, and relatively far along in the process. I know the purgatory scenes with Jack have continued to change, but some of the scenes are pretty much set by that point. It gives a good indication where the film is going. if you would like to read it, I'm sure someone would be happy to share.

As to Jack and Liz, we know it's a long shot, but the passion and excitement of the relationship is a blast to discuss and fawn over. So please let us have our fun. We're not saying its absolutely going to happen (or at least, I'm not) but it's still the hottest ship in the Caribbean, and well worth discussing and enjoying.

anyhow, welcome, and I look forward to a continued discussion!

True, huge amount of credit where credit is due, the amount of work to bring these spoilers is fantastic, you guys are top notch on that front.

I just still can't get over how TnT see Will being the new Capt. of the FD as a viable character arch. Will it go back to collecting and delivering lost souls? Will Will become immortal or would the FD become just another ship?

That issue with the Norrington's Sword is a fantastic spot though. Utterly stumped on that one.

I wouldn't worry about Will too much, Kenny. Welcome, btw. The writers know Will is an integral part of the series, that his character has "hero" written all over him. He's not going to turn evil, I don't think. I also don't think he'll be the captain of the Dutchman permanently. I think it would only be a temporary fix to a problem. For all we know, all the heroes may ambush the FD's crew, say they're taking over and take control of it for a time.

Will doesn't have just "Hero" written all over him, but does anyone else see the resemblance to Errol Flynn? ( I know it's off topic, but it's been bugging me).

Yes. It is intentional on the writers' part. They wanted his character slightly remniscient (sp?) of Errol Flynn. A lot of the stunts Will does are takeoffs from previous pirate films.

I wasn't trying to downplay Will's character. He has a dark side, of course, but he's not going to go evil. He knows what it's like to be treated unjustly and throughout the whole series, he's trying to make things right, or at least how he thinks they should be. That's why he conflicts so much with the pirate lifestyle. It's not always about doing what's just and fair and that gets to him. He's very big into honor.

Of course. And I think those nods to previous "old school" swashbuckling films will mean Will gets the girl. In all honest, Capt. Jack started out as a bad guy that would make you warm to him, so why should someone like that get the girl?

My money is on Will to marry Liz, with Jack doing what he does best, setting off on a new adventure.

Kenny, I agree that I think Will and Elizabeth will marry... but I still ship Sparrabeth. Conflict of interests on my part I guess. 😉

Will's "knife in mouth" bit from DMC was extremely Errol Flynn... 🙂 oh the good old days of pirate films.

I don't think Jack was ever a bad guy, and I never saw him as one. He isn't SAFE, of course he's dangerous and he's creatively resourceful, but for me, it wasn't ever a matter of warming to him. He comes sailing in on a sinking ship... its just brilliant.

Like someone said earlier about Tia, the visual first impression of Jack is bad news, until he steps onto the dock off his sinking ship in COTBP. He's a pirate, therefore he should be a bad guy (albeit with a huge following and some good qualities).

I suppose it's like degrees of good and bad. One side there is Will, the other is Beckett & Davy. Everyone just fits in between.

Originally posted by Kenny16
Like someone said earlier about Tia, the visual first impression of Jack is bad news, until he steps onto the dock off his sinking ship in COTBP. He's a pirate, therefore he should be a bad guy (albeit with a huge following and some good qualities).

I suppose it's like degrees of good and bad. One side there is Will, the other is Beckett & Davy. Everyone just fits in between.

some good qualities? Hmmm... are you a Jack hater? 😉

Originally posted by katelovespirate
some good qualities? Hmmm... are you a Jack hater? 😉

No, I'm not a "Jack-Hater". But Jack is not a shiny golden god. He's a bloody pirate!! Taking great pride in plundering and stealing. How many times, over the two films, has Jack done something without personal gain? Once, that I count.

Ah, but is he a bad guy if you root for his cause? I think when people went into a movie titled "Pirates of the Caribbean," they were all set to root for the pirates. Everyone loves pirates, most have played them as kids, read books and seen movies about them and now we have this epic about them. People didn't have to warm up to Jack, imo. They already knew they were going to like him.

So it just begs the question the series asks, "what does it mean to be good and what does it mean to be bad? Can you be good if you do bad things, can you be bad if you do good things?" Subtle clues are inserted into the movies that Jack is a little too good to be a pirate, that his honesty and his reluctancy to kill people gets him in trouble.

I don't want to argue with you Kenny.....but Jack is not a bad guy..he's not a bloody Pirate....tell me, over the past two films...have you seen jack do anything to show that he plunders and steals...for his own personal gain....I can't think of one....see that's the problem with Jack..he has an honest streak....he is a good man....and if you watch the commentaries of Ted and Terry from COTBP...they all but tell you that...any interview you watch...that's the point...at first Jack comes across as a "bloody" Pirate...but deep down...he's not.....he and Will are "movie" pirates.....Jack's never murdered someone just to murder them....never mind...we can't go through all of this again...to each his own I guess....

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Ah, but is he a bad guy if you root for his cause? I think when people went into a movie titled "Pirates of the Caribbean," they were all set to root for the pirates. Everyone loves pirates, most have played them as kids, read books and seen movies about them and now we have this epic about them. People didn't have to warm up to Jack, imo. They already knew they were going to like him.

So it just begs the question the series asks, "what does it mean to be good and what does it mean to be bad? Can you be good if you do bad things, can you be bad if you do good things?" Subtle clues are inserted into the movies that Jack is a little too good to be a pirate, that his honesty and his reluctancy to kill people gets him in trouble.

Hang on, if that was true, then why didn't people root for Barbosa in COTBP and Davy in DMC? People rooted for Jack because, he was Jack. And Jack might not want to kill everyone, but he is still dishonest, a lier, cheater, thief.... etc. Or are they just the victimless crimes?

And saying "everyone loves pirates..." is not exactly true. Everyone loves the Capt. Pugwash pirates, everyone loves Long John Silver. But who loves Capt. Hook?

And asking "What does it mean to be good?" Will is the pinnacle off good in the POTC films. He IS the moral weight of them.

See...if you really really look at the films and at the Jack character....Jack tries to come across as a bad guy...to hide his honest streak...because it's his honest side that always gets him in trouble...with society and the Pirates.....but Jack is very smart and clever....in fact, according to T and T...he is sooo smart...that he is ten steps ahead of everyone else....but for all of his good intentions...sometimes his plans backfire on him......

Here's my take on the situation.

these films bend the rules of traditional morality, making it completely acceptable and even desirable for Elizabeth to test the boundaries of her relationship with Will, for Jack to win out over Norrington in film 1, etc. It's a hippie film--- "evil" has been redefined as big business and men in suits and wigs. Barbossa will be a good guy (in some strange sense) in film 3... though I suspect the core reason people rooted for Jack over Barbossa in film 1 wasn't because Barbossa wasn't well liked (as a character, he kicks ass) but because Jack was hott AND the underdog.

And the pirates don't pretend to be what they're not--- they know they're "really bad eggs"... but have you ever seen Jack plunder, rape, or murder any innocent bloke? Nope. He's the romantic view of pirates, while Barbossa is closer to reality. Jack is your typical clever Disney Rogue... and Kenny, we'll just let you in on a little secret... girls love rogues and nice guys do finish last most of the time. 😉 is that totally rude to say? my experience, anyways.

"Hang on, if that was true, then why didn't people root for Barbosa in COTBP and Davy in DMC? People rooted for Jack because, he was Jack. And Jack might not want to kill everyone, but he is still dishonest, a lier, cheater, thief.... etc. Or are they just the victimless crimes?

And saying "everyone loves pirates..." is not exactly true. Everyone loves the Capt. Pugwash pirates, everyone loves Long John Silver. But who loves Capt. Hook?

And asking "What does it mean to be good?" Will is the pinnacle off good in the POTC films. He IS the moral weight of them."----Kenny

Ah, a debater. Welcome aboard, but here there be monsters. (cracks knuckles, takes a deep breath before tackling all these good points one at a time)

To answer the second question first, people do love Captain Hook. They don't want to screw him like most girls want to screw Jack, but people go see Peter Pan all the time and LOVE Captain Hook. He's a great villain and many actors consider it a gift to play him.
People didn't root for Barbossa and Davy because they're written as the villains. If you haven't noticed, the title "Pirates of the Caribbean" has gone through a subtle change in who it describes. In the first film, Will and Liz were the outsiders to that worls and the pirates were strangers coming into town. Think of it as "us" vs. "them." As the series progresses, Will and Liz get immersed into this world pretty much to the point of no return so now they are included as pirates of the Caribbean. The pirates are no longer just Barbossa and these ragtag criminals. Will, Liz, along with Jack are the pirates now.

The entire series asks if a person can do bad things but still be good. Consider the "pirate and a good man" conversation Jack and Will have or even the "curiosity" scene between Jack and Liz. They're all about what it means to be good. I bet if you look hard enough, there are times when Will is morally wrong or askew and someone else is right. It doesn't happen often, but it does. One could say Norrington is the most moral if they argue it right.

Erm, to interject a point, the Captain Hook in the recent live action Peter Pan was completely gorgeous and totally swoon-worthy, IMO. the fact that he was essentially seducing Wendy was a bit weird though. 😉

and if we reduce the characters to a blanket "good" or "bad" statement, the only good guy we've got is Will. Literally. Though that's about to change.