Wow Kate...
That was hilarious. *giggles madly* Good thing I wasn't drinking anything at the time, because I'm rather sure I'd squirt it out my nose. 😄 By far, this is my favorite line:
Will takes up Captainage of the Flying Dutchman, renaming the ship the "Loving Englishman" because he is English and not Dutch.
Very interesting take on it, and you know what, now we need to write Politically Correct Pirates of the Caribbean.
I'm re-writing my original ideas, since I kind of just wrote it in ten minutes and I didn't think everything through first. 😛 Typical me; I post before I think.
Anyone else want to take a go at my questions? Do we have any other questions we need to toss into the mix to figure out every detail for a J/E ending, or did I cover everything fairly well?
It's been covered.
Somewhere in one of these threads, I posted the following theory:
Jack is John Christian or Christopher Smythe. (Smith or Smithe if you like)
I also believe that the King of England has sent for Jack to be returned to England and the story is, to be hanged. But for some reason and Jack being Jack, he is not hung, but sent back to Port Royal to be the new Governor. I think his grandfather has influence with the King and has been looking for Jack for along time. That's why the Letters of Marque were for Jack Sparrow specifically and only. When Jack is returned to England something quite different takes place than his hanging.
Lizzie has returned to England to be with relatives and her relations arrange her marriage to someone who is a knight of the realm.
Only on her wedding day, does she find out it is Jack.
The scene we see Lizzy looking out to sea is she is waiting for Jack to come back or she is watching him go, or she is on the beach in England dreaming of all the times she had as a pirate.
Now I think, that Barbossa may indeed get the Pearl because Jack has been sent back to England.
Will, will become the Captain of the FD, but only for a while and Tia keeps him from being immortal for very long. The curse is lifted when Tia and Davy evaporate together. I would rather think that Bootstrap becomes the Captain of the FD, since he is the only one who has not become a true crustacean and knows what the FD was originally about.
Then Will is appointed Commodore of Port Royal because of his sailing skills when Jack returns from England.
Jack will lead the life of a planter/Governor with Elizabeth beside him and
Will will stay on the high seas guarding Port Royal.
All this may be belogna. (oscar meyer of course)
It's been amazing to watch all of you try to unravel a 30-second piece of pieces of a story.
What a great crew you all are. Lov ya mates.
Originally posted by Surreal_44Actually I would change the order of the questions a little bit. It's a nitpicky thing, but this is how the story pieces together in my long winded mind. With all due respect, most of the ideas actually belong to Surreal, I'm just embellishing...
2. When does Will propose and how would it end up Elizabeth does not say yes?
They're in the heat of battle; Sparrow has taken the chest away from Davy in an effort to win the heart and distract him from comanding the Dutchman. Elizabeth watches as the fight climbs higher and higher into the mast. They're surrounded by crusty creatures of all different varieties. Elizabeth is torn in two places, her eyes on Jack and Will, watching as both men are seemingly over wrought in battle. Will, seeing that Elizabeth is intent on watching Jack begins to question where his own heart lies, sensing that perhaps like his, Elizabeth's is following a different path. Eager to settle the matter es anyone else want to take a crack at it? I know mine was fairlonce and for all, he asks her to marry him for a final time. She hesitates; feints away the question with one of her own. Her hesitation, in part due to the fact that they're in the midst of the battle, and that Jack is on the mast at the mercy of Jones, is all the answer that Will needs. Though he is sad to loose her, he feels an overwhelming sense of relief. He is free to be a man of his word and free his father without remorse at leaving Elizabeth behind.
1. Why do they kiss?
Their paths have aligned for a final hopeless battle in which they strongly believe, but know that they cannot win. As the situation grows increasingly grim, Will and Elizabeth realize that this may in fact be the last time they see each other alive. The hope of survival is bleak; this is a kiss farewell, innocent and steady, a tribute to the purity of their former love.
They know that they are biding each other farewell, but when they kiss, they each realize that they already had. The kiss confirms to Will, that while he still cares for Elizabeth that his heart and mind is with his father. His path had been chosen with passing of a knife and a promise. Elizabeth realizes that her heart lies with the man who believes he has nothing else to loose, a man who is who may in fact loose his life with one misstep on the mast.3)Will ends up stabbing the heart. How and why?
Privy at last to Elizabeth's inner feelings, Will realizes tardily that it is Jack who intends to stab the heart. As he puts more than two and two together, he surmises that Jack's feelings are stronger than he had given him credit but that he intends to throw it all away and follow in the footsteps of Davy Jones. Meanwhile, Jack has seen Will and Elizabeth's tender farewell, and has misinterpreted it to mean that they have reconnected. His distraction gives Jones the edge and he pushes Jack off the mast, not realizing that the heart is in Jack's pocket. He pretends to fall, catches a rope, and lands squarely on his feet. Jack pulls out the heart and a knife, intent on putting things to right; he's lost the only woman he's ever loved to a far better man then him--he's responsible for the disasterous fight with Beckett.
Will, sees that Jack has the heart and is prepared to do the unthinkable. He tries to get Jack in time, but before he can, he's mortally wounded. Elizabeth is horrified and lets out a scream, which gets Jack's attention. Seeing that Will is dying, Jack looks between the heart, and the man whom Elizabeth loves. Unable to bear with the thought of her unhappiness, Jack rushes over to Will and with Will's dying breath, guides him into stabbing the heart.The curse of Davy Jones is broken! Will takes command of the Dutchman, turns on Beckett, and the ETTC Armada is defeated. Will is a hero, and he has fulfilled his promise to his father; at last he's struck a balance between pirate and a good man.
4. Why does Elizabeth end up alone for a while, and what is she supposed to be watching over?
Elizabeth is understandably shaken by the events. In a small space of time, her life as she once knew it has altered. She's gained her independence and the taste of freedom her pirate heart had longed for, but at what cost? She's lost her father, two men to whom she'd been engaged; all men sacrificed themselves and their happiness on her behalf; how did she repay them? She feels herself to be a curse to all those who dare to love her. Piracy, as it turns out, is not something she can live with, not if it means that she loses those she cares for most.
She wants to allow herself to care for Jack, but is frightened. What might happen to him if she allows herself to love him? More over, after all that she's done to him, would he even love her? She attempts to engage him in a battle of wits as she had in the past, to better ascertain whether or not he was the same man she had chained to the Pearl. Instead, she finds him to be unreadable, the same callous, self absorbed pirate that he always was. Meanwhile, Jack still believes that Elizabeth's heart lies with Will on the Dutchman. He attempts to comfort her, but his attempts are met with mild scorn. "It would have never worked between us..." She reminds him in a tired and sad voice, as though Jack needed another slap across the face to tell him that her heart was with Will's. He smiles through the pain, and says "keep telling yourself that darling."
He decides to distance himself from her and Elizabeth takes this to mean that he wants no part of her.Will has asked Elizabeth to guard his heart for him somewhere safe. The only place she can think of is the island where she and Jack first connected. She asks Jack to drop her at the island. They say farewell but are not on good terms.
5. What causes Jack to decide that yes, he wants Elizabeth even though she killed him and kissed Will again?
Gibbs convinces Jack that all he needs is a little rum and some pleasurable company to set him to right in Tortuga. Jack tries to go back to his old ways, but find that he cannot. He admits if only to Giselle and Scarlett that he wants only one woman in the world but he had never told her so. He'd gone through the actions of a man in love, had died for her, but hadn't managed the words. Unable to decide whether to love her in silence or declare himself to her, he pulls out his compass.
Elizabeth walks the island alone. She's burried Will's heart and stands prepared to guard it with her life. The silence of the island is stifling. To comfort herself, she decides to sing the song that is emblazened in her brain, remembering the way she'd danced around a fire once laughing madly.
"We're really bad eggs..." She sings, though the words bring tears to her eyes.
"Drink up me hearties yo-ho". She hears a familar voice sing. Elizabeth frowns, thinking it is a memory, but turns to find Jack Sparrow standing before her his arms outstretched.And then of course, I would add Surreal's most excellent ending about Will, Jack and the child.
The end.
[/B]
You mates are hilarious. kate, calypso, savvy, and surreal.
Since I can't sleep because of my damn Insomnia again, I will ramble on so be prepare to snore.
1) What is the purpose of rescuing Jack?
Will. His purposes were to use the Black Pearl, since it's the fastest ship of the seven seas, to rescue his father.
Barbossa. He says is to make it as a good deed. I don't know the exact words on what he says but I know he means by redeeming himself.
Ragetti and Pintell. Did they both agree just to make themselves look good? Or because they didn't want to be left out? 😛 lol
Gibbs. Because they are best mates! Gibbs is Jack's right hand on mostly on everything.
Tia Dalma. Because she was looking for an excuse to get out of that swamp hole she was living in.
Marty. A little dude having a big adventure! How cool is that 😄
Mr. Cotton and Mr. Cotton's Bird. So that Jack can make that funny face from that pic that we saw looking at the bird wondering if it tastes like chicken 😄
Elizabeth. Feeling guilty in killing a man and thought of a better plot to kill him rather than be kinky in chaining Jack up 🙂
But I want something serious now.
1) Why rescue Jack?
Excellent post, Savvy, although I admit it's a bit more flowery than what I think would be going through Jack, Will, and Elizabeth's minds. 😄 But that's just me and I'm not a very good romantic. 😄 Oh, and thanks for switching the order of the questions around; that's one of the things I was planning on changing. 😛
Interesting how you had Jack want to stab the heart because he feels he's lost Elizabeth. A lot of people try to put that on Will, and I'm glad you went in a different direction with that.
Good question, Chiki. I'll take a crack at it. 😛
What is the purpose of rescuing Jack?
I think it's a slightly more complicated reason than people might first give it credit. For most of the crew members, they believe Elizabeth that Jack sacrificed himself willingly to give them all the opportunity to escape, so they feel that Jack is honorable and worthy of being saved.
Just to note here, I am not arguing that he isn't worthy to be saved (although I might be stretching it if I said he was completely honorable), I'm just putting out ideas on why they want to rescue Jack.
For Will and Elizabeth, however, the situations are quite complex, not only because of their own emotions but also because of the machinations of Tia Dalma, who wants Jack back because he has something she needs.
Will, I think, is torn. At the moment he's hurting badly, not just from the fact that Elizabeth kissed another man, but also because he feels he's lost his only opportunity to save his father. I would guess also that he doesn't feel all that comfortable with the pirates either, but he can't go back to Port Royal.
He must be feeling pretty lonely now, and then Tia swoops down on him and almost cruelly points out that it's a shame about losing the Pearl. Will's resignation and anger come through in his next statement, "It doesn't matter now. The Pearl is gone, along with her captain."
After a while Will also notices how miserable Elizabeth is. Wrapped up in his own little cocoon of pain and anger, he seems almost surprised when he looks at her, but then his face softens as he believes that Elizabeth is mourning the loss of the man she loves, and he offers, genuinely, that he would do something if he could. He is still a man of honor, and he's willing to do whatever it takes to help those he loves. If bringing Jack back would make Elizabeth happy, he'll do it.
I can't help but wonder if Tia didn't interrupt Will on purpose, to prevent Will and Elizabeth from having a serious discussion about their relationship and either heal it or have them go their seperate ways. Under her crafty words, I feel a slight vibe of desperation. She NEEDS all of these people, and I think she adds on the Pearl as extra motivation to make sure Will is on board with the rescue mission.
Also, I think she enjoys the situation between Will and Elizabeth, and I have a gut feeling that she'll continue to manipulate Will into accepting his "destiny".
I'm so long-winded today. 😛
Elizabeth's reasons for going to World's End are as complex as Will's. She is feeling the weight of guilt. Guilt for kissing another man, guilt for being attracted to him, guilt for hurting Will, and guilt for killing Jack. That's a lot of guilt, and Will's silent treatment and barely contained anger must be difficult to bear.
Not only does Elizabeth want to make things right in her own mind about what kind of person she is (she wants desperately to prove that she's a good woman), I think part of her also wants to save Jack because she wants -- no needs -- to be absolutely certain about who she loves.
I'd love to say that she wants to also help Will save his father, but in typical Elizabeth fashion, I don't think she can see anything beyond her own problems, and at that particular moment, I don't think she understands Will's desire to save his father.
The purpose of rescuing Jack? Because he's the money-maker!
Seriously, you're all onto something here and I have to hand it to the writers for giving each individual their own motive for saving Jack. I think I'll just expand a bit on chiki and surreal's analysis.
Will: I understand about making Liz happy. While I'm not jumping ship, I do think Will proves his love for her here. Who would go to the ends of the world to find the guy you think stole your girlfriend? I probably would not have. Here's my dilemma with Will. He seems so bent out of the shape about the Pearl and Jack being gone. Why? Why does it not cross his mind he could save his father on his own, or with the team assembled here in the hut? Gibbs has all the information, they know where the key is, and Jack had as much chance of regaining the chest as any of them do. I just fail to see why Will feels Jack is such an integral part of the mission of saving his dad. It can't be that hard to find another ship.
Barbossa: Yes, he may be trying to redeem himself and he is in debt to Tia, but strangely, he's the only other character that knows what it's like to die. That's going to bond him to Jack, unwillingly, but definitely. I'm sure there is a small part of him that feels some empathy to what Jack is going through. Maybe Barbossa had spent time in the Locker before Tia saved him.
Pintel and Ragetti: After sailing under the command of Jack, then Barbossa, then Jack, they probably feel a hell of a lot safer with Jack and they also seem to be trying to be good, reading the Bible and discussing good and evil and justifying their actions rather than just doing them. They probably see saving Jack as the Christian thing to do (which it is)
Gibbs: Chiki said it all here. Gibbs and Jack are like best friends. Gibbs may also know what happens in the Locker, not because he's been there, but just from all he's heard. He must have some idea how bad it is.
Marty and Cotton: Jack's their captain. You always stay loyal to the captain.
Liz: Surreal said most of it- guilt, clarification, etc. Thing is, if you believe Liz killed Jack to get rid of the temptation, it's very ironic she needs that temptation back to be able to choose. If you believe she killed him mainly to save the crew, it didn't do much good if they're going back out to go get him. So now there goes Liz's feelings that she did it for a good reason. Now, it was a stupid decision that got a man killed so she can't even comfort herself with a "it had to be done, look how better off we all are."
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVENT BEEN HERE IN AGES!!!!!! I Jus saw the traile rpotc3 tht u lot r tlkin bout lol, nd its sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo coool, neva seen anything like it lol- i have 2 see it , sorry i havent been updated on the news here nd i might be slightly behind lol- anyway, nyc 2 see every1.
To answer your question about Will, Willo, I would take a guess that it's because of what the audience knows and what Will doesn't know. 😉 We know that Beckett has the heart, but as far as anyone is concerned, James died in an attempt to give them the chance to escape (foreshadowing? 🙁 ), and Davy has the heart.
There is no way Will could possibly get the heart, then, unless he has the Pearl to catch up with the Dutchman, or unless he's lucky enough to be around for another ship wreck that the Dutchman just happens to be on.
If Will knew that Beckett had the heart, his plans probably would have been vastly different, though I think he would have gone to save Jack anyway, since that is what Elizabeth wants. And no, I don't think he's pathetic to want to make Elizabeth happy. I think it shows real character and deep noble streak in Will that he'd be willing to go such lengths for her.
My revised J/E ending will be up later. 😄
And let's add in a few questions...
1. What is Will and Elizabeth's relationship like up until the final battle?
2. What is Jack and Elizabeth's relationship like up until the final battle?
Oh, and I had a thought about Will...do you think it would be possible for him to eventually find a woman who loved him and would help him to break the curse and be free from the Dutchman, or do you think he might be forced to forever sail the seas?
Really quick, I'll add to Will's motivation about needing the Pearl.
Against the wind, the Dutchman is the fatest ship in the Carribean and cannot be caught. It's a magic ship, for lack of a better way to put it. However, I think it's Jack or Gibbs who explains in DMC that with the wind the Pearl is the faster ship. It's at that moment, Will decides that he needs the Pearl to save his father.
Part of Will's motivation in rescuing Jack is to steal the Pearl to rescue his father. He could get another ship, yes, and maybe have some luck at catching the Dutchman, but who's to say that there is not a little vindictivness on Will's part. He knows the importance the Pearl plays in Jack's life. Let's not put Will's motivations at too noble. He more than likely wants to steal something that Jack has, to repay the slight of Jack's stealing Elizabeth.
Also, in the first draft of the AWE script, Will is hell bent on killing Jack for what he did. He says as much. Later drafts have him softened to betraying Jack to Sao Fen and then later to Beckett. So yes, he is going to the locker to fetch back the Pearl to go after his father. Yes, he's partially going to the Pearl because there is a part of him who will nobly follow where Elizabeth goes. But, there is also now a new harder soul of a pirate in him.
I think I'll have to disagree with you on Will wanting to steal Jack's ship to get back at him. Or at least, not at this point. I'm not basing Will's motivations on the scripts right now, because I think that the original question was meant to be about why they'd go and get Jack back while in Tia's shack.
Now, if we want to expand on Will's motivations in AWE, I would agree that after they rescue Jack and his relationship with Elizabeth is still struggling, he may decide that stealing Jack's ship would be appropriate revenge, but I'm still going to guess that Will is guided by one thought; Save his father.
Will is quite willing to betray Jack in the original 52-page script, don't forget, and then he fights Jack, wanting to kill him. I think the fact that things aren't going well with Elizabeth and his attempts to save his father don't seem to be panning out very well pushed Will over the edge so that by the time he draws a sword on Jack, he really does want to kill him, because like Norrington in DMC, Will has found that Jack makes a nice scapegoat for all his troubles. 😛
I'd almost feel bad for Jack, except he asks for trouble by using people, including the ones who have helped him and done so much for him in the past.
Woot! I heart this thread.
Good points, yes indeed 🙂
I'm having mixed feelings about Will carving his heart. Going back on what Surreal said on Tia interrupting Will in saying something to Elizabeth. Right after Will saw how Elizabeth was in her own little world thinking about Jack, Will's expression softened a bit.
Notice when Will says: "If there was anything we can do to bring him back." Elizabeth kind of jumps up and wakes up.
Does Will say that to see Elizabeth's reaction on getting Jack back? Or does he say it because he doesn't want to see Elizabeth heart broken because of the death of a man whom she may be in love with?
I don't know why, but I think is a little bit of both. But Im leaning more to the fact that Will doesn't want to see Elizabeth heart broken. And really wants her happy to see Jack again...
By saying this, Will could see her reation on the thought of bringing Jack back from the dead. And it probably made her regret of her actions on chaining him up and lead him to his ultimate demise.
But Will loves and cares about Elizabeth. He was pissed on not having the Pearl to get his father back. At the moment, his only best friend was his knife. But when he saw Elizabeth...he knows that she is not there mentaly.
Why the interruptions? First with Gibbs when Will saw a glimpse of Jack and Liz kissing. Then Tia when she interrupted Will after he said Elizabeth
Fate intervenes, anyone? But what was Will going to say to Elizabeth or ask before the interruption of miss lovely teeth. Was he going to question on her feelings for Jack? Or was he going to question about their relationship on where is it going to go.
Oh, and I had a thought about Will...do you think it would be possible for him to eventually find a woman who loved him and would help him to break the curse and be free from the Dutchman, or do you think he might be forced to forever sail the seas?---Surreal
I want to add something in Surreal's question:
Is Will going to carve his own heart?
You know what..I'm pretty sure is a no. But then, what about that scar Will has on his chest on that scene where he is in the flying dutchman? it could be possible that it's a wound from the fight.
I think this is very important. While Will is escaping from the Dutchman, his father hands him his knife. Will: " I will make sure that this blade will pierce into Davy's heart and I will set you free. I promise." Then we go to the Isla de Cruces scene and Will says: "I keep the promises I make, Jack. I intend to free my father."
To stab the heart, no doubt. It is his destiny in doing so. But to carve "him heart" because of a broken heart. I really don't think so. When he stabs the heart and becomes immortal, Im not sure of the possiblity of another woman saving him and lifting the curse. Then who will be the captain of the FD? Doesn't the ship needs it's captain? Or once the curse is lifted, there is no need of a captain and the FD?
Whoah...I'am rambling on and on and on.
isn't it a coincidence that Will has a scar where is heart is? The scar seems to be like it is bumpy but most scars are like that. Speculations says that Will and liz are sorta like Davy and calypso love life.
I think in the commentary Tnt says something that Will was being a great man or something for doing this, going to save Jack. I think he did this for one reason mainly to get the pearl from Jack to save his father, I think he was going to confront liz with her kiss with Jack
What gets me is does tia Dalma still have the hots for Jack?
I did! I'm playing catch up as we speak. Seriously, I wish I didn't have school and that essays about Pirates were graded. But I digress. I am going to think about those really GOOD questions and responses for a small bit to see if I can add anything. Pretty much y'all touched on what I would say.
I think you touched on an important question. Which is why are there these interruptions that prevent Will and Elizabeth from resolving their issues (other than it makes for more suspenseful writing).
I'm with you Chiki in that I believe Tia Dalma is manipulating Will for her own devices. She's a strong woman, equal to Jack or any other pirate in her use of cunning. I've always wondered that if she already knew the fates of those people around her, what would prevent her from manipulating those key players to get what she wants.
I'm fairly certain that if Tia Dalma hadn't interrupted, Will probably would have said something noble, like if Jack is the man you love, I'll stand behind you to go and rescue him. But, knowing that Will is in a vulnerable state where he might in fact, stab the heart and free Jones, I believe she manipulated the situation. She's exploiting the situation in the same way that she's exploiting Jack to get his piece of eight.
Does Will carve out his own heart?
I'm almost positive that he doesn't. Of all the characters who would have the motivation to do so, I believe he's the least likely suspect. Judging from the scripts and the strength of Will's character, it seems as though Norrington or Jack have more reason to tear out their heart.
He will stab the heart with the intention of freeing his father, or for some other noble reason because that is his nature. He lacks the desperation of Jones; especially after he finds out that Elizabeth's kiss with Jack has less to do with love and more to do with saving lives.
I don't think it's about the kiss that worries Will. Is her growing feelings for Jack and the way she was mourning for that man at Tia's hut.
For Will to carve out "him heart", isn't that repeating the same story of Davy? Why repeat the same heart broken story when it happened already.
I don't know how Tia will help Will. Remember that Naomi Harris, who plays Tia, says that Calypso/Tia will make a dramatic exit.
Is it possible that she dissappears along with Davy?
I agree with you, SavvySparrow.
However, to steer the conversation gently back to a W/E ending, the reason why Will and Elizabeth don't get to talk in DMC is because they would have resolved their differences and made up, making At World's End a lot less exciting to watch. 😉
jackismyboo, if the writers said that Will is being noble...then that's what he is being. I hate to say this, but the writers know more about these characters than even we do. 😛 Will has his flaws, yes, but he is not some evil bastard out to wreck Elizabeth and Jack's happy love.
Originally posted by Chiki Mina
I don't think it's about the kiss that worries Will. Is her growing feelings for Jack and the way she was mourning for that man at Tia's hut.For Will to carve out "him heart", isn't that repeating the same story of Davy? Why repeat the same heart broken story when it happened already.
I don't know how Tia will help Will. Remember that Naomi Harris, who plays Tia, says that Calypso/Tia will make a dramatic exit.
Is it possible that she dissappears along with Davy?
Apparently, I heard that Calypso is released in an interesting way, and by a character whom no one would suspect being capable of doing so. I heard that the reunion between Calypso and Davy will be touching.
I also agree that while there will be a romance story that will parallel Jones/Calypso, that the whole purpose of the Calypso/Jones debacle will be for whichever pairing it applies to, to learn from their mistakes.