Putting it all together...spoilers

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Mmm..Brownies 🙂

Will isn't evil. And I doubt he will become evil. Who are the real heroes in this movie anyways? If everyone betrays eachother lol.

That is actually a GREAT question Chiki. I promise Surreal that we'll continue with the W/E version of the end once you come back and play catch up. Meanwhile, in the interest of keeping things going, I'd like for our little band of scallywags to discuss that question.

Who are the true heroes of not only AWE, but the series as a whole?

But you can't just answer with, well I think that Ragetti is the hero of the series because his wooden eye never fails to get a laugh.

You have to support it with evidence from the scripts, the movies, and or quotes from the writers.

Discuss!

i think jack is a hero, not just because he is hot or beacuse he is gorgeous or because he looks great as a pirate, wait what was i talking about again? oh yea, he has been a hereo every since the beginning....he sails the ocean to help will save elizabeth, even tho he does it to get the black pearl, but he still goes all the way in helping him. will goes off and saves the woman he loves with the help of a pirate, at the time he hates pirates and still stands to have a pirates help. <- reaseon why will is a hereo. 2nd movie jack wants the heart of davy jones but he also helps will and elzabeth out. will goes after liz and liz goes after will. i mean when liz is in jail and will is talking to her, not only is that love but it shows that he will doing everything he can to save her. those are some reasons why they are hereos.

Originally posted by lady_captinjack
i think jack is a hero, not just because he is hot or beacuse he is gorgeous or because he looks great as a pirate, wait what was i talking about again? oh yea, he has been a hereo every since the beginning....he sails the ocean to help will save elizabeth, even tho he does it to get the black pearl, but he still goes all the way in helping him. will goes off and saves the woman he loves with the help of a pirate, at the time he hates pirates and still stands to have a pirates help. <- reaseon why will is a hereo. 2nd movie jack wants the heart of davy jones but he also helps will and elzabeth out. will goes after liz and liz goes after will. i mean when liz is in jail and will is talking to her, not only is that love but it shows that he will doing everything he can to save her. those are some reasons why they are hereos.

So let me see if I've understood you correctly. You're saying that you believe that all three members of the trio are heroes in their own way? I agree in that they've all done heroic acts and have taken acts to distinguish themselves, but let's narrow the question shall we.

If we were to narrow the list down to say between Will and Jack, whose actions are the most heroic? How does the series define heroism and what do those actions look like? In other words, who is the true hero of the series?

to tell you the truth i think its whoever you want to be a hereo...both have their own qualities that make them hereos

Who do you think though? And why? That's what I'm trying to ask I suppose. I just want your opinion. There's no right or wrong answer with the discussion. This is about dialogue and sharing ideas. 🙂

Ok! Let's play.

Who are the real heroes in this trilogy, if everyone betrays eachother?

Who is suppose to be the hero? Will is not our main character, and usually our main character is the hero which is Jack. But Jack is not a hero. He is labeled as a anti hero. Or is he?

Here is the defiition of a hero:

1) In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2) A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.

3) The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

Is true that Will risked his life to save Elizabeth and the crew, but sadly, he does it without thinking. Jack gets bothered by that because he does "something stupid" just to be a hero at Liz eyes. Jack has saved Elizabeth many times. In the first scene, it wasn't a risk since he knows how to swim and there is no danger in rescuing Liz. So that won't classify him as a risk. He was more of a rescuer than a hero.

Will betrayed Jack in hitting him with a paddle to get Liz. Is betraying someone who hasn't lied to you to save someone will make you a hero?
Jack was being honest in retreiving Liz back while he Deals with Barbossa in getting his pearl back. Is killing two birds with one stone.

By the end of CotBP, who rescued Liz from being shot by Barbossa? Jack was the one who shot him, so Barbossa didn't get the chance to shoot Lizzie. But if it wasn't for Will, Barbossa wouldn't have died 🙂. I don't think there are any "heroes" in this movie. 😉

Lets go to DMC.

Jack has betrayed Will and he ended up at the FD. But, was that bad? Jack knows that Will's father is in the FD. Was Jack simply lying or not telling the whole truth? lol.

By the end of DMC , Jack prooved to be a good man in risking his life to go back to the pearl to help defeat the kraken and help Liz. After being chained to the mast, he accepted his fate. He never yelled or shouted. He stayed on his pearl and died sacrificing himself to Elizabeth and the crew.
^^^^^^^^^^^
2) A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.

Who will be the hero or heroes in AWE..?

WELL PUT!

Excellent Chiki, but what about the definition of the Anti-Hero? You left that one out. 🙂

The definition of an anti-hero is:

A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

And according to that fountain of incorruptable knowledge, Wikipedia an anti hero is someone who:

Can be awkward, antisocial, alienated, cowardly, cruel, greedy, obnoxious, obtuse, passive, pitiful, selfish, or just ordinary. When the anti-hero is a central character in a work of fiction the work will frequently deal with the effect their flawed character has on them and those they meet along the narrative. In other words, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society in which they live. Additionally, the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to punishment, un-heroic success, or redemption.

Sound like any one we know? While yes, I agree that Jack has his moments of heroism in all of the films, I would argue that Jack fits the definition of an anti-hero. Does that make him any less heroic? No. I would argue that his moments of unselfish heroism are that much more astounding, given the flaws of his character.

wow...everyone's theories are soo great...wish i could add something...but I am not in analytical mode right now...just wanting it to end with jack and elizabeth...but not knowing how..but liking the scenario that Surreal set forth...

and Surreal I got to hand it to you girl...despite the fact that you are not a j/e shipper...it's amazing how you could write those scenarios in answers to your questions.....I admire you for that..cuz no matter how hard I try I cannot come up with a plausible ending that has lizzie choosing will..and jack being happy with himself......cuz Jack's character development has proven that he does need people in his life..and that people are more important than the material things in life....

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Excellent Chiki, but what about the definition of the Anti-Hero? You left that one out. 🙂

The definition of an anti-hero is:

A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

And according to that fountain of incorruptable knowledge, Wikipedia an anti hero is someone who:

Can be awkward, antisocial, alienated, cowardly, cruel, greedy, obnoxious, obtuse, passive, pitiful, selfish, or just ordinary. When the anti-hero is a central character in a work of fiction the work will frequently deal with the effect their flawed character has on them and those they meet along the narrative. In other words, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society in which they live. Additionally, the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to punishment, un-heroic success, or redemption.

Sound like any one we know? While yes, I agree that Jack has his moments of heroism in all of the films, I would argue that Jack fits the definition of an anti-hero. Does that make him any less heroic? No. I would argue that his moments of unselfish heroism are that much more astounding, given the flaws of his character.

*smacks forehead*

I knew I was missing something. Thanks, savvy darlin'. 🙂

Ok, next question. *rubs hands together*

Chaining Jack to the mast to leave him to die....

1) Does that make her a murderer or a "hero" in sacrificing Jack for the crew and Will.

My opinion. A murderer is killing someone unlawfully. I believe that Liz is a murderer. I know, I'm being harsh but here's why.

To do a sacrifice, it cannot be in vain. Jack eventually turned out to be a good man, as she would always say and she inclusively had faith in him in being a good man.

Was she really doing something good in sacrificing Jack to prevent the kraken to go after them? Or was her "sacrifice" was more to get rid of her temptation. Kiss and not tell.

Jack has proved to be a good man. You can kills someone out of justice like maybe Beckette or Mercier, etc. But to kill a good man? I call that murder.

Anyways, that's my thought.

Savvy, anyone, what you think?

Who will be the hero of AWE?

I know you're probably not going to want to hear it, but I suspect that Will is the hero of AWE. That's not to say that Jack won't do things that are heroic or self-sacrificing. In the story you could argue that Will's path lies with the great heroes. His touch of destiny is that he is heroic, self-sacrificing, brave and a terrific soprano. That doesn't mean that he won't have characteristics that fit the definition of an anti-hero. Some of his choices in AWE from what we've seen are selfishly motivated.

What you could easily say is that Will and Jack learn from one another albeit begrudgingly. Will learns from Jack that sometimes in order to get what you want from life, it takes an act of selfishness. That risking life an limb when you could "pay someone else to fight for you" is the better route to go. If you negociate rather than fight, sometimes you live longer.
Meanwhile, though Jack would loathe to admit it, I would imagine that his more heroic qualities are inspired by observing Will's actions and sacrifices. I suspect the end of the climatic battle scene in AWE is probably a result of these observations.

In short, I believe that Will makes a sacrifice in AWE that will essentially cement his place in the hero books, and I suspect that it will be on Jack's behalf. Call it a hunch, but it has to do with the way that DMC ended.

well...from the spoilers I've read on here.....it's hard to say who will be the hero...Will just doesn't look heroic in that pic of him on the Dutchman..he looks mean and nasty...and angry....

and from what I've heard about the spoilers...doesn't sound like Will makes the choice to be heroic...Jack does it for him....if those rumors are to be believed...

If the rumors of Jack making Will to stab the heart to live and become immortal while he was badly injured is true...

Then Jack is technically sacrificing his goal in becoming immortal and to never die to save Will 😄 lol

"ya i think it is jack...from what ive heard its supposed to be the good side of jack when he is in pugatory...but i dont know...maybe im wrong..."----pirate179

Got a picture of this? I just don't know where everyone's talking about right off the bat.

Getting back to the heroes debate, I think the whole question is a little strange. Yes, all the "heroes" have messed up big, what with all the trust issues, back stabbings, and misunderstandings going on. But then isn't what we're really saying there is that a hero has to be perfect to be a hero? Take Liz for example. She did a naughty, naughty little thing and does fit the definition of a murderer, pure and simple. But what if in her mind that was the right thing to do? Technically speaking, escaping jail was the wrong thing to do, but she did that to go after Will, and a big part of that kiss was to save Will, so in a way, she's sacrificing her relationship with Jack (however you perceive their relationship to be) for Will, and self-sacrifice is a pretty heroic act. I think it all comes down to a person's motives.

Got a picture of this? I just don't know where everyone's talking about right off the bat.---willo

let me look...

Don't forget to read the question I posted. Scroll up. I want to know on you all's thought about Lizzie..

is there anyway to get a screecap of a part of the trailer cuz i found the part willo, but i just dont have a still of it

Wait, are you talking about the crusty-man? I've seen that if you are. I thought you were talking about another part.

Chiki, I think as far as obstacles to overcome goes for heroes, this will be Will's movie as far as physical obstacles (Beckett, Davy) and Jack and Liz's as far as psychological obstacles go. Don't take that to extremes, though. All three will have their psych and phys. moments.