Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Ok, next question. *rubs hands together*Chaining Jack to the mast to leave him to die....
[b]1) Does that make her a murderer or a "hero" in sacrificing Jack for the crew and Will.
My opinion. A murderer is killing someone unlawfully. I believe that Liz is a murderer. I know, I'm being harsh but here's why.
To do a sacrifice, it cannot be in vain. Jack eventually turned out to be a good man, as she would always say and she inclusively had faith in him in being a good man.
Was she really doing something good in sacrificing Jack to prevent the kraken to go after them? Or was her "sacrifice" was more to get rid of her temptation. Kiss and not tell.
Jack has proved to be a good man. You can kills someone out of justice like maybe Beckette or Mercier, etc. But to kill a good man? I call that murder.
Anyways, that's my thought.
Savvy, anyone, what you think? [/B]
Well...I've said this somewhere before...but I think it makes her a murderer. She saw Jack rowing away in the longboat and yet the Kracken was still attacking the Pearl, it didn't go after jack in the longboat. jack could have easily made it to land, but he returns himself and the longboat to the the Pearl to rescue the others.
Remember Will says "We can make it to land as it takes down the Pearl."
Liz know they can make it, because she already saw that Jack could have made it.
So just why does she do what she does to Jack. I don't think she did it just to save Will and the Crew.
I just don't know what she was thinking. If she did it to remove the temptation...then that brings up the question someone touched on earlier...Why would she go back to rescue Jack and bring back up that temptation...
Once, she gets to Tia's cabin and she has had time for what she did to sink in, she now realizes the consequences of her actions. She acted on a selfish impulse..the impulse to be bad and the impulse to see what Jack tasted like "one day you won't be able to resist".
The sorrow and the grief is realizing the consequences of her impulsive actions...she wants to right a wrong....
didn't t and t say somewhere..that she realizes in Tia's cabin that she could have in fact killed the very man she may indeed love....???
Yeah, lovethemtigers, I think I brought that up. It just doesn't make sense either way.
1. Liz did it because she wants Jack and removed a temptation.
Problems:
- makes her a total b*tch and I don't think she is
- makes her really, really weak, which she is not
- it would make no sense for her to be that resolute about removing a temptation and then stop at nothing to get said temptation back just to prove to herself she is above the temptation
Fixes:
- Liz may really be a weak b*tch
- Liz is really, really screwed up and not worth either Will, Jack, or Norrington's time.
2. Liz did it to save Will and the crew
Problems:
- She saw Jack get away from the kraken so she would instantly know the kraken was after the ship, while everyone else has no idea
- Why lean in for a second kiss, stopping herself when it was just about too late?
- Again, why go back for the guy that the kraken is after if he endangers Will, herself, and her friends?
Fixes:
- Liz figured Jack getting away from the kraken in the longboat was just catching a lucky break and the kraken/Davy would figure things out and never stop chasing them (This is what I think she thought)
- If you believe she was thinking what I just mentioned, it makes all the sense in the world for her to lean in for a second kiss because she didn't really want to leave him there but so no other way out.
the line that has always got me was when she says "this is the only way, don't you see..."...to me it's her way of telling him "Jack, you are a temptation, but I'm engaged to Will, if you are around then I will have to break Will's heart and we don't want to do that, so this is the only way...don't you see..."...but of course it probably just means.."the only way for us to escape is for you to stay here and face the Kracken and accpet your destiny...and let us all escape..cuz it's after you, not us..."
So what do you think the motivations are? I'm going with my Option 2 since it makes more sense to me and it would be very logical to assume that Jack only caught a lucky break and the kraken is indeed after him. The lines make more sense that way, too.
"It's after you, not the ship." - self-explanatory.
"It's not us." ---------- "It's not after us. You should let us (Will) get away."
"This is the only way don't you see?" ----- "Stop smiling!"
(leans in) "Thank you, sir, may I have another?
"I'm not sorry." ------- I am sorry, but this is the only way.
If you go with my Option 1, her lines don't make as much sense.
"It's after you not the ship." ----- I know differently and I'm going to voice it to you to increase my guilt.
"It's not us."------ Oh, it's SOOOO us, I'm just being stupid.
"This is the only way, don't you see?" ------- Stop smiling!
(leans in) ------ Everything I said was bullshit.
"I'm not sorry." ------ For the record, I think you're hot, but it's time to die.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
So what do you think the motivations are? I'm going with my Option 2 since it makes more sense to me and it would be very logical to assume that Jack only caught a lucky break and the kraken is indeed after him. The lines make more sense that way, too."It's after you, not the ship." - self-explanatory.
"It's not us." ---------- "It's not after us. You should let us (Will) get away.""This is the only way don't you see?" ----- "Stop smiling!"
(leans in) "Thank you, sir, may I have another?
"I'm not sorry." ------- I am sorry, but this is the only way.
If you go with my Option 1, her lines don't make as much sense.
"It's after you not the ship." ----- I know differently and I'm going to voice it to you to increase my guilt.
"It's not us."------ Oh, it's SOOOO us, I'm just being stupid.
"This is the only way, don't you see?" ------- Stop smiling!
(leans in) ------ Everything I said was bullshit.
"I'm not sorry." ------ For the record, I think you're hot, but it's time to die.
😆
You know..now that I see Willo writing Elizabeth not being weak...makes me think.
Elizabeth is not weak physically...she fights, she's smart, and knows how to handle not one, but two swords.
But with Jack..is as if he makes her weak and uneasy at the same time. Liz makes makes Jack weak and strong at the same time.
Does that make any sense at all?
It does...they can't think straight when they are around each other...they want to flirt with each other...they are strong...but when around each other they sort of give in to their weaknesses....but Jack is never stronger looking then when he fires that rifle and she is clinging to his leg...I sooo love that part....
To clarify:
When I was posting the hero question, I meant for us to resolve the question by examining it from the classic definition of hero: i.e. what the dictionary defines as heroic. As for myself, I have my own definition of what is heroic and what isn't.
That applies to Elizabeth's actions at the end of DMC as well. I would put her somewhere in between murderer and hero. In a way, she looked at the situation and chose the greater good from a certain perspective. Jack had been running away from the consequences of his actions, and as a result, good men did and may have perished. She chose to be judge and executioner to save the lives of many, rather than one.
If in fact, she was in love with him, and sent him to die anyway, that would make her actions all the more heroic. She was sacrificing her personal happiness to keep others alive.
What's important to realize is that the script of DMC insinuates that Jack meant to stay behind anyway. It says something to the effect of that he appears to take the guns, as though guarding their retreat (a scene which didn't make it into the movie). If she knew he intended to remain behind and chained him to the mast anyway, then her actions are much less favorable and noble. She chained him to save lives yes, but the motives were tainted by selfish-motivation.
It's not so much the act of sending Jack to his death; he was the cause of his own misery on that one. But it was the MANNER in which she sent him to his death. She used him, toyed with his emotions and then cast him aside from this point of view. Granted, it was a clever way to get him to be chained to the mast, but she used his vulnerability in such a way that from this vantage looks in no way honorable.
It's possible that Jack's action of returning to the Pearl had nothing to do with Elizabeth but more with him accepting responsibility for his previous actions. In that case, her actions would have been superfluous anyway and she'd at least made a dying man happy. I don't know, maybe that makes her heroic.
Ok, ok....no squeeing over J/E, please. 😛 We already know all the er...proof you have of J/E, and I'd like to keep the focus of this particular thread more on thoughtful questions and piecing together spoilers for AWE.
I have to go to bed, but I'm gonna think on everything that you guys have written and try to post something intelligent in the morning. 😄
What's important to realize is that the script of DMC insinuates that Jack meant to stay behind anyway. It says something to the effect of that he appears to take the guns, as though guarding their retreat (a scene which didn't make it into the movie). If she knew he intended to remain behind and chained him to the mast anyway, then her actions are much less favorable and noble. She chained him to save lives yes, but the motives were tainted by selfish-motivation.
It's not so much the act of sending Jack to his death; he was the cause of his own misery on that one. But it was the MANNER in which she sent him to his death. She used him, toyed with his emotions and then cast him aside from this point of view. Granted, it was a clever way to get him to be chained to the mast, but she used his vulnerability in such a way that from this vantage looks in no way honorable.
It's possible that Jack's action of returning to the Pearl had nothing to do with Elizabeth but more with him accepting responsibility for his previous actions. In that case, her actions would have been superfluous anyway and she'd at least made a dying man happy. I don't know, maybe that makes her heroic.
He looked at his compass. So most likely he came back because he knows that Elizabeth is there and wanted to face responsibilty. And to save his crew, of course.
Im not sure about the heroic part of Liz...the kraken was after the pearl. If it was after Jack then the kraken could have taken Jack on the long boat. So I really think she just cahined Jack up just in case he changes his mind in not staying in the pearl to save everyone.
I think she made herself look "bad" to make Jack the hero. Um..I think that makes sense.
True, she did have to be the bad guy on this one. She essentially held Jack accountable even though he had returned to the ship to be accountable, if that makes any sense. Maybe that's why the writers had the scene in which he slips his hand from the cuff; to show that her actions and concerns that Jack would escape were justifiable.
The more I look at this, the more I dislike Elizabeth's actions. Really, it seems like no matter what she does essentially she doesn't deserve any of the men in her life.
Ha, ok, ok, I'll let it go. Let's look at the Will/Elizabeth questions. How would we construct an ending in such a way that Will and Elizabeth end up together, without making it so that Jack is essentially roadkill on the way to E/W bliss?
