Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Here's a question:[b]What character relates the most with Davy? Will or Jack?
[/B]
Or Norrington? 😉
Ok, seriously it's getting harder for me to try to remain neutral with these questions, but I'll do my best. I whole heartedly admit that I have a Jack bias.
The most obvious would be that Will's story most closely mirrors Davy Jones.
He's a man enamored with his fiancee. He works under the assumption that Elizabeth loves him until he sees something that shakes his faith in her. By the time that he realizes that the kiss may have had nothing to do with love, it's too late. His rash assumptions have led him on a path of betrayal that may in fact do more harm to his relationship with Elizabeth than good. (Similar to Jones ripping out his heart and sticking it into the chest). You could argue that Will's decision to betray the crew, Jack and Elizabeth on some level eerily parallels Jones decision to rip out his heart, only Will's decision rips out what makes him a great man, his unflapable humanity.
However, I refuse to discount that Jack's story also parallels Davy Jones. For starters, like Jones, Jack started life as a 'Great Sea Captain'. While Jack is 'the worst pirate you've ever heard of', he's a good Captain in that he's a good man. (Think of Barbossa's description of what it was that lost him the Pearl in the first film). Like Jones, Jack insists that his first and only love is the sea. The writers have a quote somewhere stating that it is not beyond the bounds of Jack's character for him to fall in love with a woman who shares the same qualities as the sea...Sounding familiar?
In terms of where the story of AWE goes, it sounds as though Jack's decision to betray the pirates to Beckett is a choice that is similar to Jones decision to lock his heart away in a chest. It's a sacrifice of any goodness he seems to posess. Elizabeth will be furious with him when she sees that the good man he might have been has seemingly disappeared; similar to Calypso's fury.
Here is where I get a little more biased. I would argue that Elizabeth's betrayal at the end of DMC, which if you look at it from the perspective of her twisting his vulnerablity in such a way that it is truly cruel. The writers are very clear in describing Jones as a man who is "devestated" by love.
Though Will is a much more reserved character, when I read the scripts, his behavior lacks that air of desolation and devestation. It's motivated him in a different direction, but it hasn't stolen his strength. Where as Jack seems to be in a more fragile state. There's desperation in Jack's end of the story because he's on the losing team. Elizabeth is still essentially engaged to Will, seems from his perspective to want nothing but Will.
Now, I know Surreal is going to tear the mickey out of this theory, because she'll argue that Will's decisions do have a sense of desperation to them. That in DMC, it seems that all Elizabeth wanted was Jack and that it seems at least from Will's perspective that Elizabeth loves Jack. However, I will counter that with the portion of the AWE script in which it is resolved that the kiss between Jack and Elizabeth had to do with murder and not necessarily love. So Will knows now, that her decision was based on the wellfare of others per say, which resolves that edge of desperation to their story. All that is left to be resolved between them is essentially regaining the trust lost between them, and owing one another a big fat apology.
WEll I just saw that comedy movie, Blades Of Glory, and good news everyone, for the first time the AWE trailer came out in the movie theaters. I don't know what other movies carry AWE, but man it sure looks good on the cinema, and clean to compare to my T.V. Well I thought I just let everyone know...We will see more of that Trailer in the movies, I can tell you this I won't get tired of it...
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Savvy, I think LovelyOne had mentioned that T&T said on the KTTC board once that she jilted him. Not sure where I heard that. I guess I shouldn't accept it as canon.
If that's the case then Will's story is definitely meant to parallel Jones'. Not exactly original but I can see how the story would pan out if that were the case. But that doesn't exactly line up with what we know about how Will becomes Captain etc etc...Gah, I seriously want to throw up a flag of truce with the film and surrender.
Not only that, but where did this business about Jack rescuing Elizabeth from a pirate's brand come from? Is that a bunch of hogwash, or is there truth to it?
Actually, one of the weird things about the question on who is more like Jones is extremely tough, because all three of Elizabeth's romantic interests are similar to Jones in some way.
The person who is most like Jones is actually Norrington. And he does have a sort of desperation to him that neither Jack nor Will seems to possess. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers somehow managed to make James captain of the Dutchman. I know it's wishful thinking, and that they probably had all three men follow Jones' story so that it left you to guess on who might become the captain, but even in the leaked scripts it seems to hint that James becomes more like Jones, and also, the 36-page one makes me think that he is considering stabbing the heart at one point. I'd have to see how it's played out on screen first.
My theory for the "kick-ass" ending is that somehow the curse is lifted from Will, and James takes his place. It's a lame guess, but it'd free up both Will and Elizabeth to appear in another installment of the films if it is so desired, and it makes for a nicer ending then ick, the immortal couple thing, which really sounds a bit lame to me.
BUT, TnT know what they're doing. Right? Right...
I think I have to disagree--- i dont think norrington is the most desperate, as lovers go at any rate. He gives Elizabeth up fairly easily and walks away with a smile on his face--- not a happy smile, but at any rate, aside from throwing himself into his work, he seems to deal with it okay.
the line, "there was a time i would have given anything for you to look like that while thinking of me..." always seems to hint to me that James has, in some way, found peace with the situation and doesn't love Elizabeth the same way he once did. "there was a time", and that time is now over. He realizes she is not the same girl he fell in love with, and he has changed dramatically also. Know what I mean? I think he realizes it wouldn't have worked between them. thats my opinion anyways.
I think the third film will actually see James regain respect for Elizabeth at some point. He seems very sarcastic and derogatory towards her in film 2. I think he's going to get to see her noble side again, which will be nice.
All that to say, Will is the one who is most like Jones in my mind. Jack is happy go lucky and not given to melancholy like Will is.
"Not only that, but where did this business about Jack rescuing Elizabeth from a pirate's brand come from? Is that a bunch of hogwash, or is there truth to it?"-----savvysparrow.
I have no idea. I'm pretty sure that's just a rumor that's going around. I don't pay attention to "spoilers" too much but I think other people said that was a bunch of BS.
Hmm, who is the most desperate man? Desperate for what? They all are after the chest for different reasons and fight equally hard for it. Will wants it so he can keep the promise to his dad and T&T do say Will is the best swordsman of all the characters. He's able to fight hard for it. Norrington kicks sand in Will's face for crying out loud! He's all set to take that chest and turn it over to Beckett. Jack? Jack's been after it the longest and just as Norrie and Will have teamed up and debate who will kill him first, he NEGOTIATES and turns them against each other! Genius!
I do see the desperation in Norrington, but not so much when it comes to love. He's desperate to regain some purpose in his life, to be able to be useful again. He hates being on the "wrong" side where he's taking orders from Captain Jack. He's still bitter about Liz dumping him, but I don't see the "I miss her, I still want her" in him.
I hate to be the typical J/E shipper here, but I would think Will is most prone to desperation. Jack doesn't limit himself enough to be desperate most of the time. Will sets limits for himself. He's going to play by the rules for as long as he can, he's going to be a gentleman as long as he can. He'll be a pirate for a while, but that's not who he is. He's smart and quick most of the time, too, but he won't do certain things and sometimes that ends up backfiring on him and making his life worse, which has to be frustrating.
Jack on the other hand, usually does not limit himself. He'll begin the game breaking all the rules and is used to coming out on top. He's desperate to live, but as soon as Will and Liz come back into his life, he's got a plan all set in motion.
For love, remember the last time we saw all of them, Will thought he lost Liz and Jack thought he's coming close to winning her. It doesn't matter how Liz feels right now because one already feels he's lost her. This parallels the Jones/Tia story the most to me.
Originally posted by katelovespirate
I think I have to disagree--- i dont think norrington is the most desperate, as lovers go at any rate. He gives Elizabeth up fairly easily and walks away with a smile on his face--- not a happy smile, but at any rate, aside from throwing himself into his work, he seems to deal with it okay.the line, "there was a time i would have given anything for you to look like that while thinking of me..." always seems to hint to me that James has, in some way, found peace with the situation and doesn't love Elizabeth the same way he once did. "there was a time", and that time is now over. He realizes she is not the same girl he fell in love with, and he has changed dramatically also. Know what I mean? I think he realizes it wouldn't have worked between them. thats my opinion anyways.
I think the third film will actually see James regain respect for Elizabeth at some point. He seems very sarcastic and derogatory towards her in film 2. I think he's going to get to see her noble side again, which will be nice.
All that to say, Will is the one who is most like Jones in my mind. Jack is happy go lucky and not given to melancholy like Will is.
I'm going to quibble with you Kate about Norrington. It's not that I think he's going to mirror Jones story since we kind of already know his fate in AWE. However, I do believe he still in love with her. It's not with the same dog-like devoted quality that we saw in COTBP but it's still there. The fact that he's even needling Elizabeth in DMC shows a little of that romantic bitterness in my opinion. It's sort of like he has to prove to he's over her by pointing out her faults. Also, though he blames Jack for being the person to destroy his life, it's really Elizabeth's decisions from the first film that have brought him to the pathetic state we see in Tortgua. He's too noble to hold Elizabeth accountable, so he transfers his anger to Jack.
When we see Elizabeth running to Will's arms, we also see that Norrington is still quite heartbroken over her choice, even though it's only for a brief moment. Also, he would not have allowed Jack to distract him in getting the key if he were not in fact still heartbroken over Elizabeth's choice.
I don't know, we could probably go around in a circle on this business forever if we didn't know something of Norrington's fate already.
Anyway, moving right along. Ummmm, what were we discussing?
Who is the most desperate/most desperate for what/mirrors the Davy/Tia story.
I do like they show Norrington's reaction to when Liz runs up to Will. I think somewhere Jack does note that and that's why he can so easily turn Norrington against Will. But it just doesn't look like heartbreak to me. You can be bitter about a love gone wrong without still loving that person. It's not like he really thought Liz ever loved him in the first place. I think he knew inside she said yes to him to save Will, but was hoping she would come to love him. That looks like it's all over to me.
Well, the key here is that not one of the stories mirrors the story of DJ and Calypso. We can break it down a bit like this...
James and Elizabeth: This is the most one-sided relationship. James adored Elizabeth and thought she was perfect. Like Jones, he fell in love with a woman who probably reminded him of the sea. She left him before they were married to be with another man. Her choice drove Norrington to become obsessed with catching Jack Sparrow, and it cost him his ship, his crew, his pride and his job. When we first see Norrington, he is at absolute rock-bottom and nearly suicidal.
Will and Elizabeth: This is the most balanced relationship out of the three, at least so far. Will was all set to marry Elizabeth, but circumstances have forced them to be seperated. By the end of the film, he has seen Elizabeth kiss another man. This will lead him to make poor choices in the third film that could cost him his friends and Elizabeth.
Jack and Elizabeth: It's still a bit one-sided, I think, at least at this point. Jack is attracted to Elizabeth, probably because she does remind him of the sea. He seems to really care about her, possibly loves her, but she's engaged and seems to still love Will. Jack still flirts with her, and gets her to respond, only to have her betray him to his death. Elizabeth's actions will be a partial cause for Jack to decide to "kill" the good man inside him and to make poor choices that could cost him the lives of the few people he seems to care for.
So...who's story mirrors Davy Jones and Calypso's the most? 😄
As another little side-note, I believe firmly that whoever ends up being captain (yeah, I know, Will), is going to make the break with DJ's story by choosing to make good and noble choices, instead of making bad and selfish choices. The point of AWE seems to be all about redemption, so Will is going to redeem the job of being captain of the Dutchman, and redeem himself in the process. 😄
Does that make sense?
Ok lets talk about something we know the nine pirates lord according to a leacked script and KTTC... So here they are:
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirate Lord of the Caribbean
Captain Barbossa, Pirate Lord of the Caspian Sea
Captain Sao Feng, Pirate Lord of the South China Sea
Captain Villanueva, Pirate Lord of the Adriatic Sea
Sri Sumbhajee Angria, Pirate Lord of the Indian Ocean
Mistress Ching, Pirate Lord of the Pacific Ocean
Capitain Chevalle, Pirate Lord of the Mediterranean Sea
Ammand the Corsair, pirate lord of the Black Sea
Gentleman Jocard, Pirate Lord of the Atlantic Ocean
So the question is we see Beckett with one of the pieces of eight, rumors are going around that the might stole it or he was one of the Pirates lords and that is how he know the story of CAlypso, Davy Jones, the compass, and the heart. What do you guys think about Beckett, we don't know his whole history, but the question is who is Lord Culter Beckett, and was he or not a Pirate???
Originally posted by Surreal_44
Well, the key here is that not one of the stories mirrors the story of DJ and Calypso. We can break it down a bit like this...James and Elizabeth: This is the most one-sided relationship. James adored Elizabeth and thought she was perfect. Like Jones, he fell in love with a woman who probably reminded him of the sea. She left him before they were married to be with another man. Her choice drove Norrington to become obsessed with catching Jack Sparrow, and it cost him his ship, his crew, his pride and his job. When we first see Norrington, he is at absolute rock-bottom and nearly suicidal.
Will and Elizabeth: This is the most balanced relationship out of the three, at least so far. Will was all set to marry Elizabeth, but circumstances have forced them to be seperated. By the end of the film, he has seen Elizabeth kiss another man. This will lead him to make poor choices in the third film that could cost him his friends and Elizabeth.
Jack and Elizabeth: It's still a bit one-sided, I think, at least at this point. Jack is attracted to Elizabeth, probably because she does remind him of the sea. He seems to really care about her, possibly loves her, but she's engaged and seems to still love Will. Jack still flirts with her, and gets her to respond, only to have her betray him to his death. Elizabeth's actions will be a partial cause for Jack to decide to "kill" the good man inside him and to make poor choices that could cost him the lives of the few people he seems to care for.
So...who's story mirrors Davy Jones and Calypso's the most? 😄
As another little side-note, I believe firmly that whoever ends up being captain (yeah, I know, Will), is going to make the break with DJ's story by choosing to make good and noble choices, instead of making bad and selfish choices. The point of AWE seems to be all about redemption, so Will is going to redeem the job of being captain of the Dutchman, and redeem himself in the process. 😄
Does that make sense?
After reading this...maybe you are right Surreal...maybe Norrie, Jack and Will should just get them each a strumpet and sail off into the horizon...oh yes, Gibbs too 😄
Leave old Lizzie to wallow in her grief on that island all alone and miserable....she deserves it after playing with these mens' hearts' the way she has....I guess one could look at it that way...
But in actuality I still like Elizabeth..she is strong, brave and very fiesty...but you know what...Jack doesn't force her to flirt with him...and he can't help himself...because he wants her, he tried to stay away from her, and he did a good job until she shows up on his ship in Tortuga...and very unmarried...maybe he thinks of this as the opportune moment to see if she could ever reciprocate his feelings..Jack has a right to happiness to with the woman he may indeed love...
Originally posted by Surreal_44
Well, the key here is that not one of the stories mirrors the story of DJ and Calypso. We can break it down a bit like this...James and Elizabeth: This is the most one-sided relationship. James adored Elizabeth and thought she was perfect. Like Jones, he fell in love with a woman who probably reminded him of the sea. She left him before they were married to be with another man. Her choice drove Norrington to become obsessed with catching Jack Sparrow, and it cost him his ship, his crew, his pride and his job. When we first see Norrington, he is at absolute rock-bottom and nearly suicidal.
Will and Elizabeth: This is the most balanced relationship out of the three, at least so far. Will was all set to marry Elizabeth, but circumstances have forced them to be seperated. By the end of the film, he has seen Elizabeth kiss another man. This will lead him to make poor choices in the third film that could cost him his friends and Elizabeth.
Jack and Elizabeth: It's still a bit one-sided, I think, at least at this point. Jack is attracted to Elizabeth, probably because she does remind him of the sea. He seems to really care about her, possibly loves her, but she's engaged and seems to still love Will. Jack still flirts with her, and gets her to respond, only to have her betray him to his death. Elizabeth's actions will be a partial cause for Jack to decide to "kill" the good man inside him and to make poor choices that could cost him the lives of the few people he seems to care for.
So...who's story mirrors Davy Jones and Calypso's the most? 😄
As another little side-note, I believe firmly that whoever ends up being captain (yeah, I know, Will), is going to make the break with DJ's story by choosing to make good and noble choices, instead of making bad and selfish choices. The point of AWE seems to be all about redemption, so Will is going to redeem the job of being captain of the Dutchman, and redeem himself in the process. 😄
Does that make sense?
Perfect sense actually. Well done, I agree with your analysis whole heartedly. 🙂
Oh Lovethemtigers you are right.Jack deserves to be happy.
On the other han d the things had been said about Davy Jones suits him:'He was a great sailor,.A man of the sea.Got vexed by a woman.H e fell inlove with a woman that's like the sea (Jack said to Elizabeth in Tortuga:I'm deeply flattered son,but my first and only love is the sea.)
I hope he won't be like Davy Jones.I can't imagine him being so desperate to be like that.Maybe Will,Jack and Norrington has to keep in mind how they react to their heartbreaks,because of Elizabeth.,because it's important.Davy chose to cut out his heart and be a bitter,evil guy,instead of saving souls,thus to do the right thing.But our three guys have to show,that they can remain or became good men.
Originally posted by Pirategirl85
Ok lets talk about something we know the nine pirates lord according to a leacked script and KTTC... So here they are:Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirate Lord of the Caribbean
Captain Barbossa, Pirate Lord of the Caspian Sea
Captain Sao Feng, Pirate Lord of the South China Sea
Captain Villanueva, Pirate Lord of the Adriatic Sea
Sri Sumbhajee Angria, Pirate Lord of the Indian Ocean
Mistress Ching, Pirate Lord of the Pacific Ocean
Capitain Chevalle, Pirate Lord of the Mediterranean Sea
Ammand the Corsair, pirate lord of the Black Sea
Gentleman Jocard, Pirate Lord of the Atlantic OceanSo the question is we see Beckett with one of the pieces of eight, rumors are going around that the might stole it or he was one of the Pirates lords and that is how he know the story of CAlypso, Davy Jones, the compass, and the heart. What do you guys think about Beckett, we don't know his whole history, but the question is who is Lord Culter Beckett, and was he or not a Pirate???
I'm not going to say it's not possible; anything is possible in this series.
But I'm doubtful that he was ever a pirate lord. For starters, what, if he were a pirate in the first place would possibly motivate him to switch sides?
Second, Governor Swann is well acquianted with Lord Beckett. Which implies that they had a history, or at least knowledge of each other when Elizabeth and Swann were living in England. In England around the time that Pirates is set, you couldn't buy your title with money yet. The rise of the middle classes isn't until much later in the industrial revolution. Which implies to me that he's old money, and that he inherrited the East India Trading Company from a relative or a hostile take over. Also, his dealings with Jack occur in the past, which suggests to me that Beckett has been working for the Trading Company for a long time.
If he has a piece of eight, he probably took it from someone forcefully. Remeber he needs the pieces of eight to release Calypso so he's going to do whatever it takes.
And last but certainly not least, he's doing his research. If he knows about Davy, Calypso and everything else, it's because he's a smart villain, and knows that in order to defeat the Pirates he needs an air tight plan. Also, his behavior implies he has a rather large vendetta against Jack Sparrow, which insinuates to me a hint of obsession. He wants to see Jack dead.
Also, I would imagine that at one time, Davy Jones would have been a member of the Pirate Council. Perhaps the coin is Davy's, and since Beckett has control of the chest, he has the leeverage to comand Jones to do whatever he wants.
Hey everyone, I see you guys have been analyzing alot. I'm a little down today 🙁
But on with theories 😄
Not only that, but where did this business about Jack rescuing Elizabeth from a pirate's brand come from? Is that a bunch of hogwash, or is there truth to it?--savvysparrow
There were rumos about it. But I think it could be true. Because there is a scene from the trailer where Jack is standing behind the door and you can hear a gunshot NOTE: The scene where Liz is all dressed up before the scene with Jack behind a door are completely different scenes. Just wanted to make that clear.
Jack supposely rescues Lizzy from getting branded and he shoots the "P". He then places it in one of his brades/beads things. There is a pic of it too. Just according to rumors.
So since my Spring Break has officially started as of today, I'd thought I'd mark it with a viewing of DMC.
I thought that this was an interesting quote from Bootstrap Bill.
"I'm sorry for the part I played in the mutiny against you. I stood up for you, everything went wrong after that..."
I think that the fates of father and son parallel each other. Bootstrap's decision to stand up for Jack after the mutiny, and Will's decision to help Jack escape the gallows mirror each other in that they have unforeseen consequences and rewards.
I can name a few off the top of my head, but I'm going to see what you all think first.
Happy hunting!
My spring break started also 😄
That is a really, REALLY good point, savvysparrow. Excellet. You get a cookie.
This may sound a bit crazy, but PirateDiva and I would talk about the cannibal scene where Jack says "Save me" to Will. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have never seen Jack calling for help like that.
I think It's foreshadowing in what will happen in AWE. That it's possible that Will will save Jack. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this part. I want to keep this in mind though, just in case. As silly as it sounds.