Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Geez. Above Superman... The implications of that are that Marvel has a whole class of Herald-level guys at least slightly more powerful than DC's. Marvel > DC...hmmm
Not everyone believes that one of these two characters beating the other means that their universe is more powerful...usually such a stance is only held by fanboys.
Originally posted by Pillow BiterPre-Flashpoint Supes and Thor were pretty evenly matched with Thor having the versatility and magic exploitation advantage and Superman having a slight strength and vast speed advantage.
If someone feels the magic weakness is at play, then maybe Thor beating Superman would just be a case of a match up. When I heard him say Thor was 'above' Superman, I just naturally thought he meant more powerful, stronger, etc. My bad.
My 2 cents anyway.
Some truth to that in the typical portrayal, though I think Superman's strength edge was a bit more noticeable. And he has a similar durability edge. Speed and exotic powers are about equally likely to be used in a decisive manner. Superman's magic weakness is definitely an X factor.
Problem is Superman's extra gear. Every hero has one, but not to the extent he does. Some writers have tried to explain it in different ways--holding back more, mental blocks, sucking in more solar energy when he gets angry, etc. But ultimately it just is. And it is a very difficult thing to factor into a battle board handicap of a fight, granted.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
The real problem is that while DC will say she is on par with say Captain Marvel, she is also the one who constantly gets said to be less powerful than Superman. Meanwhile, Marvel often gets shown as his equal.
But fun fact: Wonder Woman (or at least pre-Nu52) has a better track record against Superman than CM does. CM's never won a strait fight, he's either done a suckerpunch, got a draw, or lost. WW both pulled a Tiara win in the end in Sacrifice, and submitted Doomsdayified Superman with her lasso.
Wonder Woman is consistently shown to be his peer, and Superman pegs her as the next top hero if something happens to him. Batman's said that if she went evil, he's the only hero for the job of stopping her, notably said with Martian Manhunter in the room.
Furthermore, many people feel the Marvel Heralds (Thor, Surfer, Gladiator, etc.) are Superman's equal. So how can a character who is consistently shown to be less powerful than Superman be equal to Herald-level characters who posters feel are equal to Superman.
There's equal in general tier, and there's precisely equal. Wonder Woman and Superman are both equals in the same general tier sense, as is Gladiator and Martian Manhunter and Beta Ray Bill and such. Wonder Woman isn't precisely equal, but she's general tier, and outmatches several character who are also in the same general tier.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
Pre-Flashpoint Supes and Thor were pretty evenly matched with Thor having the versatility and magic exploitation advantage and Superman having a slight strength and vast speed advantage.My 2 cents anyway.
I agree with this. I would give Thor the slight advantage via hitting power due to Mjlonir and I would give Superman the advantage hitting wise without Mjlonir.
The speed advatage Superman has makes Thor and Superman an even match. Put Thor and Superman on the same level speed wise and he wins the majority, high majority against any Herald.
Originally posted by Q99
But fun fact: Wonder Woman (or at least pre-Nu52) has a better track record against Superman than CM does. CM's never won a strait fight, he's either done a suckerpunch, got a draw, or lost. WW both pulled a Tiara win in the end in Sacrifice, and submitted Doomsdayified Superman with her lasso.
Diana won in Sacrifice, though even Rucka admitted that his opinion on Superman vs. Wonder Woman (that he was more powerful, but she had a slight edge in a 1v1) was in the decided minority. I don't agree with your depiction of the DoomSuperman fight at all, though. She was shown to be much less powerful in that fight, needed help and a distraction to win, and Superman wasn't thinking clearly. And Superman has many, many showings where it is flat out stated Diana is #2 to him.
Meanwhile, Superman and Marvel were often referred to as equals., and Superman was almost never directly stated to be more powerful than Marvel. Superman may have edged out some fights, but there is a long tradition of them being on par, whereas Diana was traditionally shown as a step behind him. In many stories, from Kingdom Come to Distant Fires, when a writer wanted a true Superman foil, they would choose Marvel and often write Diana as beneath both of them.
Now I feel that by the end of the old DCU, this idea that Superman and Marvel were and must always be physical equals slowly became less accepted. It was no longer dogma. But still the idea persists that Black Adam and Marvel have seemed more powerful than Diana when compared to Superman.
Now I think Diana is as powerful as Black Adam and Shazam. But I can see where the divergent opinion came from.
Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this. I would give Thor the slight advantage via hitting power due to Mjlonir and I would give Superman the advantage hitting wise without Mjlonir.The speed advatage Superman has makes Thor and Superman an even match. Put Thor and Superman on the same level speed wise and he wins the majority, high majority against any Herald.
I think you are overstating how important speed typically is in heavyweight fights.
I agree that her boost from dropping the bracers has not seemed huge.
That said, she has consistently been shown as very powerful in the New 52, and touted as one of the two most powerful beings on the planet. She doesn't really have any bad showings in the New 52 that I know of. So she doesn't need much of a boost from her baseline. It seems pretty solid right now.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I agree that her boost from dropping the bracers has not seemed huge.That said, she has consistently been shown as very powerful in the New 52, and touted as one of the two most powerful beings on the planet. She doesn't really have any bad showings in the New 52 that I know of. So she doesn't need much of a boost from her baseline. It seems pretty solid right now.
She barely did better, maybe even worse depending on who you ask, then Orion fighting as a brick. The loss of protection from removing her bracers (Although they wouldn't really stand up that much to Mjolnir based on how they broke) isn't worth it in this fight.
Well, do you want me to think of bad showings or something? Besides, she hasn't actually done anything really of note either as far as I can tell. Standard superhero fare stuff, but a few issues of God of Thunder are more impressive then her whole Nu-52 existence at this point.
