Ryu Hayabusa vs Urien and Gill

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
What part of [B]multiple falls, from 100 meter peaks don't you understand? Have you played DOA 3, because in that game you can knock an opponent down several peaks in an endless fashion. Again, how does that compare, and it was not 1000 meters. You constanly exaggerate evidence supporting your argument and minimilize evidence against it, why? Please study your material science's, steel is composed of about 99% IRON. The only reason why steel is prefered over iron in construction is because it's more mallable and isn't combustible. Iron is actually as hard as steel, just not mallable. Refer to what I posted above and like I said, show me an opponent that is resistant to magma and has an iron body. It isn't canon, he never uses the damn blade, he holds it as an item. Show me otherwise, because your obviously ignoring your own evidence. So, hayabusa is going to somehow burn or Freeze Gill, despite the fact Gill can uncreate most of his elemental Ninpo?! And, how are Ki-Shots getting past Aegis Reflector, infact how is hayabusa going to avoid Meteor Shower? It isn't even used by him canonically, your own video that you posted illustrated this. Jesus, you act like he's going to speed blitz the like he's flash or something. Hayabusa is quick and agile, but he isn't that flash. He can be and has been rushed down, he just has very good defensive options. Holy ****ing shit, do you have any idea what your saying. Hayabusa never ever ****ing used that goddamn blade ever. He held the shit in his hands for one chapter. There is no such thing as "Devil Incarnate Hayabusa", that is just your conjecture and conjecture=/=evidence. [/B]

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Alright, stop bringing up DOA mechanics because I never even mentioned it. Also, I'm not exaggerating anything. I said what seemed to be thousands of feet, why? Hayabusa was looking down through clouds before he hit the ground.

I know you didn't mention, and I also never said hayabusa cannot survive falls from heights. Though he can still die from falls and DOA game mechanics is stupid (Regardless of your defending that point or not), let's just move on from that particular point.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Also, when you're looking at Rachel as she's hanging on her rope device, she was like a spec in the distance, and there's more distance added to that as they're escaping the cavern, and Hayabusa fell from at least 50 meters before he actually went through the black hole, so yeah, I'm pretty sure the fall exceeded 200 meters at least.

But, hayabusa was ascending futher high up when he saw rachael. He had to get closer in order to reach, but what does rachael hanging from a cable have to do with falling, he wasn't at the same height as her when he fought the emperor, not to mention that major alterations were made to the landscape E.G.: Huge casms appeared, the entire sky vanished, etc.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Steel is as tough; if not, more durable than iron. So yes, saying steel > iron is reasonable since it is in most cases more durable. If Ryu can cut through steel he can cut through iron, so that was pointless to say for that reason as well.

No, saying Steel>iron is not reasonable, steel and iron are the same thing but with just different properties. Yes, steel has alot of advantages than iron, but only in a different context. And, your avoiding my question, show me an enemy that can withstand magma and has a body that's as hard as Iron.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

I'm not ignoring anything and I'm only stating the facts You're the one ignoring the fact that Ryu can be used at any particular time in the game, whether if it's when he turned into a fiend, when he fit the jewel in the Dragon Sword, or when he wielded the Dark Dragon Blade. We can take him out of the game at any given moment if we wanted to and put him up against anyone else, and you act like as if someone else as the Devil Incarnate would be weaker,

It doesn't matter, the Dark Dragon Blade was never ever used by Ryu, there is no such thing as Devil Ryu. That is your conjecture, the only was for Ryu to use the DDB would be of the opener stated so. He didn't, so, I'm refering to Ryu and his canonical abilities.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

when you don't know that the Devil Incarnate's power is the Dark Dragon's, because even in the damn intro it says that the power of the blade is made possible by the souls of the vanquished black dragons that dwell within it. Also, what does Gamov say in chapter 13? He says, "It seems that the Dark Dragon, now free of its seal, is gradually absorbing the chaos of the battlefield and becoming a truly evil blade. It's not surprising that we did not know its true capacity, as the ancients were so careful to conceal it. Now, it is a weapon of extraordinary power, the likes of which has never been seen throughout human history. Whoever possesses it...", He stops right there. Now let's read back to what the intro said, "It has been sealed by those of the Dragon Lineage since the dawn of history, because of its incredible capacity for evil. Made possible by the souls of the vanquished black dragons that dwell within it". Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Devil Incarnate's power is the Dark Dragon's, so anyone with the Dark Dragon Blade could be as powerful as the Dark Dragon as well. What does someone need to become the Devil? Let's see what Ayane has to say about that: "It is a cursed blade, bestowing an unfathomable strength upon those wicked enough to wield it." Not a problem if he wanted to kill Gill and Urien so badly. Also, what does Murai utter when he wields the blade? He says, "the Dark Dragon is mine". I think that's enough proof of the fact that anyone with the DDB could be as powerful as the Dark Dragon.

I never said the blade would make him weaker, I said the blade was never used by him. Get over it, it has never officialy been used by him, ever.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Also, when did I say he will burn and freeze Gill? Also, Gill's fire and ice are most likely natural whereas Ryu's isn't. It's created by magical spells as opposed to Gill's basic fire and ice. And all that doesn't matter because Ryu can perform Inazuma which grants him longer invulnerabililty anyways; you ignored this.

The invincibility frames is the most obvious game mechanic in Nnja Gaiden. Once you use it, even if ryu's pushed he continues his animations.

And, the flame being magical doesn't mean jack, nowhere does it state that Gill can only manipulate certain type of flames. And, art of the ice strom is ryu using his ki to manipulate the trophosphere I.E. not magic.

And, I addressed ryu's projectiles when I mention Aegis Reflector.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Also, I said ki slots. You know what those are right? They're what makes Ryu perform a ninpo technique, and each time he does one a ki slot is emptied. Well let's see, how will Hayabusa avoid a meteor shower? 1. Does he have to? No, his ninpo grants him invulnerability, 2. During a meteor shower, is every spot and place in the area left unopen constantly? No, he can teleport where he wouldn't be hit by them for a second or two, and then find another spot to teleport.

Why the **** are you mentioning Ki slots when that's obviously a game mechanic?!

1.Ninpo invinciblity is a Game mechanic, I already proved how.

2.So, urien is going to watch as ryu goes and hides in the area where the attack does not reach?

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Simple as shit, and not to mention Ryu's reaction time. Yeah, if anyone's underrating anyone right now it's you with Ryu. You sure did argue well for him when you tried to prove that he would beat Akuma in H2H, which, sadly, everyone here disagrees on.

I never said ryu could beat gouki, I was just clearing up the bullshit on this forums. And, now I'm underrating hayabusa because I disagree with your convulted logic?

You keep stating that hayabusa will do this and that, as if Urien and Gill will stand their and clap. You haven't refuted any of my arguments pertaining to their attacks.You just mention BS game mechanics, like: Ninpo Invincibility, and Ki slots.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

However, Gouki wouldn't have a chance in hell if Ryu had either blades. Ryu is fast enough to kill Urien and Gill with his sword.

How will he get passed their attacks, roll cancel? 🙄

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

You are making the blasphemous claim that soloing the entire Ninja Gaiden verse is not as difficult as beating Urien and Gill at the same time. Ever considered how Ryu fought Nicchea and Ishtaros at the same time?

Blasphemous, man that was a roit, you obviously consider hayabusa to be a GOD,lol. Oh, and had the True plot Device Blade when he fought them. True Dragon Blade is the only reason why hayabusa didn't die when he faced any of the greater fiends. His ass would have been handed by the likes of : Spirit Doku,Awakened Alma, Marbus, The Vigoorian Emperor (With or without the blade), Nicchae, Ishtaros and who can forget Fiend Murai.

The True Dragon Blade is a plot device, without it hayabusa only managed to Stalemate Alma and break Doku's armor. Yet, you believe he can legitimately defeat all the greater fiends and even take them on in pairs?!

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Doa game mechanics don't display what the durability of the characters. Unless you guys believe that everyone can survive several falls from 100 meter peaks. . . =/

It's a pure fiction world. Why can't they survive several falls from 100 meter peaks when they are able to K.O. T-Rexes with just 2 blows? Not everyone can survive those falls, just the DOA fighters.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
It's a pure fiction world. Why can't they survive several falls from 100 meter peaks when they are able to K.O. T-Rexes with just 2 blows? Not everyone can survive those falls, just the DOA fighters.

That's a bad anology considering that fall does not discriminate between character ability. So, that means everyone is as durable as hayabusa and can survive multiple 100 meter falls from moutains.

It's not a bad analogy at all. No normal human will ever KO a T-Rex with just two punches. Pretty much everyone is as durable as Hayabusa in DOA. He is not Kyo nor Terry in DOA. He doesn't make people job to him. In fact he's only won 1 DOA Tournament. Fact of the matter is the DOA fighters are above normal humans. Ryu Hayabusa is in the cast. End of Story.

BTW I'll be sure to quote you whenever you start arguing in defense of Hayabusa's "Plot Device" weapons.

So lets come to the conclusion that iron is as durable as steel...Ryu destroys the vessel made out of steel with the DS. What's stopping him from doing the same Urien? You tried to argue Ryu used a tecnique to perform such a feat...what made you think that? And even if he did what's stopping Ryu from using that same technique on Urien?

Girll's meteor shower is the least of Ryu's worries. Teleportation helps him avoid it. The other Super is the one that worries me, but then again Gill does take his time before he actually performs it.

The creatures Cloud mentioned who come from the magma are legit examples of something being in magma. But you deny it simply because they don't originate in it and can be found in other places? Come on. They stand in the magma and fight you while they are in it. Once again...come on.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
I think with weapons Ryu will be able to beat them.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
It's not a bad analogy at all. No normal human will ever KO a T-Rex with just two punches. Pretty much everyone is as durable as Hayabusa in DOA. He is not Kyo nor Terry in DOA. He doesn't make people job to him. In fact he's only won 1 DOA Tournament. Fact of the matter is the DOA fighters are above normal humans. Ryu Hayabusa is in the cast. End of Story.

Your ignoring my point entirely, I know it's a work of fiction. But, it does not change the fact that lost world ignores individual stats. I'm not going to believe that zack is just as durable as hayabusa because of a game mechanic, that's bullshit.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
BTW I'll be sure to quote you whenever you start arguing in defense of Hayabusa's "Plot Device" weapons.

Go ahead, because the True Dragon Blade is the only weapon in the game that is a full fleged plot device. The weapon has zero properties and yet people bring it up.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

So lets come to the conclusion that iron is as durable as steel...Ryu destroys the vessel made out of steel with the DS. What's stopping him from doing the same Urien?

Because urien isn't those enemies,enough with the A>B>C logic. Because I've never seen an enemy that survived a blast of magma whilst having a body as hard as iron.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

You tried to argue Ryu used a tecnique to perform such a feat...what made you think that? And even if he did what's stopping Ryu from using that same technique on Urien?

Because the Dragon Blade does not normally glow like that, and for one I never said urien cannot be hurt by hayabusa. But, you guys are acting like urien durablilty is exactly the same as anyone with metal on them.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

Girll's meteor shower is the least of Ryu's worries. Teleportation helps him avoid it. The other Super is the one that worries me, but then again Gill does take his time before he actually performs it.

No, he doesn't, and even if he did, urien is covering his ass.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

The creatures Cloud mentioned who come from the magma are legit examples of something being in magma. But you deny it simply because they don't originate in it and can be found in other places? Come on. They stand in the magma and fight you while they are in it. Once again...come on.

Who cares, I didn't ask for enemies that only reside in magma. I asked for an enemy witha body that is as hard as iron ad can resist magam. Yet, these particular points are always addressed seperatley.

What has Hayabusa done durability-wise to make you think he is above Zack?

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
I know you didn't mention, and I also never said hayabusa cannot survive falls from heights. Though he can still die from falls and DOA game mechanics is stupid (Regardless of your defending that point or not), let's just move on from that particular point. But, hayabusa was ascending futher high up when he saw rachael. He had to get closer in order to reach, but what does rachael hanging from a cable have to do with falling, he wasn't at the same height as her when he fought the emperor, not to mention that major alterations were made to the landscape E.G.: Huge casms appeared, the entire sky vanished, etc. No, saying Steel>iron is not reasonable, steel and iron are the same thing but with just different properties. Yes, steel has alot of advantages than iron, but only in a different context. And, your avoiding my question, show me an enemy that can withstand magma and has a body that's as hard as Iron. It doesn't matter, the Dark Dragon Blade was never ever used by Ryu, there is no such thing as Devil Ryu. That is your conjecture, the only was for Ryu to use the DDB would be of the opener stated so. He didn't, so, I'm refering to Ryu and his canonical abilities. I never said the blade would make him weaker, I said the blade was never used by him. Get over it, it has never officialy been used by him, ever. The invincibility frames is the most obvious game mechanic in Nnja Gaiden. Once you use it, even if ryu's pushed he continues his animations. And, the flame being magical doesn't mean jack, nowhere does it state that Gill can only manipulate certain type of flames. And, art of the ice strom is ryu using his ki to manipulate the trophosphere I.E. not magic. And, I addressed ryu's projectiles when I mention Aegis Reflector. Why the **** are you mentioning Ki slots when that's obviously a game mechanic?! 1.Ninpo invinciblity is a Game mechanic, I already proved how. 2.So, urien is going to watch as ryu goes and hides in the area where the attack does not reach? I never said ryu could beat gouki, I was just clearing up the bullshit on this forums. And, now I'm underrating hayabusa because I disagree with your convulted logic? You keep stating that hayabusa will do this and that, as if Urien and Gill will stand their and clap. You haven't refuted any of my arguments pertaining to their attacks.You just mention BS game mechanics, like: Ninpo Invincibility, and Ki slots. How will he get passed their attacks, roll cancel? 🙄

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Blasphemous, man that was a roit, you obviously consider hayabusa to be a GOD,lol. Oh, and had the True plot Device Blade when he fought them. True Dragon Blade is the only reason why hayabusa didn't die when he faced any of the greater fiends. His ass would have been handed by the likes of : Spirit Doku,Awakened Alma, Marbus, The Vigoorian Emperor (With or without the blade), Nicchae, Ishtaros and who can forget Fiend Murai. The True Dragon Blade is a plot device, without it hayabusa only managed to [B]Stalemate Alma and break Doku's armor. Yet, you believe he can legitimately defeat all the greater fiends and even take them on in pairs?![/b]

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
I guess I must repeat myself.

True Dragon Blade allows ryu to fight the Dark Dragon Blade & Strengthens the blade That's it.

And, as for ryu fighting world killers in H2H, his weapons have no special properties, it's all him so it wouldn't be far fetched to say he would stand a chance. Especially considering he has ninpo's and projectiles.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
No, they are not. His weapons have no magical properties what's so ever. All his essence attacks are hayabusa's [B]Skill. The only weapon that is a plot device is the True Dragon Blade because it allows him to fight against the DARk Dragon Blade.

It's only for the Dark Dragon Blade. [/B]

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Your ignoring my point entirely, I know it's a work of fiction. But, it does not change the fact that lost world ignores individual stats. I'm not going to believe that zack is just as durable as hayabusa because of a game mechanic, that's bullshit.

Thank you for pointing out Ashtar's mood swings regarding the True Dragon Sword, Cloud.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
He didn't show any sign of injury when he fell before his fight with the Emperor; falls don't hurt Ryu, like it or not.

The dude was laid out for a good second, your acting like he ate the damn fall as if it were nothing

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Oh, and you didn't get my point apparently. All that I've said explains why the fall was way, way more than a 100 meters, and Ryu showed no sign of injury from the fall.

I did not disagree with you, I said he can not fall from 100 meter peaks in an endless fashion like he does in lost world.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

You do know that he is a fiend who draws his blood from ancient dieties right? Alright, I won't say steel is better, but hell no is iron is any more durable, so if Hayabusa can slice through steel with the basic Dragon Sword, he can cut through iron, and assuming that you are saying Urien and Gill are as tough as Iron, they would be diced by the Dragon Sword let alone the True Dragon Sword.

Read my post FFS, I asked for an ENEMY THAT HAS A BODY THAT IS AS HARD AS IRON AND CAN SURVIVE MAGMA.

What the **** is soooo hard to get about that?!

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

I don't have to show you an enemy who's as hard as iron since Ryu has sliced through damn steel..

Read my post FFS, I asked for an ENEMY THAT HAS A BODY THAT IS AS HARD AS IRON AND CAN SURVIVE MAGMA.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Ryu not using the Dark Dragon Blade; whatever. He doesn't need to weapons at his disposal.

None of which are specified in this match. . . and they would not help.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

His ninpo would grant him invulnerability in this fight because Gill's fire and ice can't get past the field he creates while performing Inazuma.

So, an electric field will protct him from gills ascension?

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

And nowhere does it say Gill can manipulate all types of flames.

And, tell me, what proof do you have for this conjecture? How is Ryu's magic different from ordinary fire?

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

He can't manipulate Doku's as a matter of fact.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Alright, let me ask you something and I want you to be honest about it. When the fight starts, do you think Urien and Gill would know that Ryu would teleport behind either one of them and impale them in the back?

Even if he teleports behind them, it doesn't mean he will easily impale them. Your underestimating them like crazy, ffs. These aren't some scrubs in the Streets, these are boss level characters.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

Now, can either of these two survive such injuries let alone being decapitated?

Read before you post, I specifically stated uriens durability, and gill can revive himself.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

I doubt it. What speed feats do they have and are they able to teleport?
If not, I don't see how this battle would go in favor of Gill and Urien. I highly doubt Gill can unleash his attack before the time it takes for Hayabusa to kill him because again

Then how did the SAT, Vigoorian Soldiers (Whilst Wearing heavy armor), Samurai and every damn enemy in Ninja Gaiden keep up and even perform rush downs on him?

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

, he can simply teleport behind him and kill him before he knew anything happened.

So, he would teleport behind them and kill them with one swoop, what Bullshit cloud.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

I'm simply arguing Hayabusa has a good chance; he can defeat Nicchea and Ishtaros, two of the Greater Fiends in Ninja Gaiden, without a lot of trouble; I'm sure he can beat Gill and Urien.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII

He can defeat two of the most powerful Greater Fiends at the same time, as proven in the Ninja Gaiden Black mission mode. And it's funny listening to that and then listening to this:
LOL

And, where do I deny the True Dragons Blades plot device status in those post?

Infact, the only error in that post is my mistake in not mentioning the greater fiends and forgetting his fight with alma. Yeah, it does not change his abilities, but it's still a plot device.

Mission is not canon, get that shit outta here.

Alright, I can counter these points with things I've said already. Also, your argument that Ryu can take down world killers with his bare hands makes me see no point in continuing this debate with you.

Originally posted by Cloud_VII
Alright, I can counter these points with things I've said already. Also, your argument that Ryu can take down world killers with his bare hands makes me see no point in continuing this debate with you.

You haven't countered anything, I'm still waiting for you to address these points:

-Show me an any enemy that has a body as hard as Iron and can survive magma. Instead you address these as septate points

-How is Ryu going to get past Aegis Reflector?

-How will he dodge a simultaneous attack from "Meteor Shower" and Urien?

And, when has Ryu taken world killers with his barehands?

We have shown Ryu's DS dealing with steel and creatures that can withstand magma. They are separate examples, but that doesn't prove it will not work on Urien.

You know Itagaki is obsessed with making hard games. That is the sole reason Ryu's enemies are able to stand up to him. You want an overpowered character storming through everyone and everything in-game try Devil May Cry 2.

Teleportation makes short work of Aegis Reflector. It won't corner him. Which is AR's most dangerous ability.

Superior reaction skills, speed & teleportation makes it possible for Ryu to handle Urien & Gill. Shit he fights boss fights with numerous, never ending, extra opponents. Lets not get into mission mode.

In one of your earlier posts, regarding Gouki vs Ryu I believe, you commented on how the Ultimate Techniques and everything Ryu does with his weapons is all him, and not the dreaded "Plot Device" you are now trying to impose on us. I believe that's what he's getting at.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
You haven't countered anything, I'm still waiting for you to address these points:

-Show me an any enemy that has a body as hard as Iron and can survive magma. Instead you address these as septate points

-How is Ryu going to get past Aegis Reflector?

-How will he dodge a simultaneous attack from "Meteor Shower" and Urien?

And, when has Ryu taken world killers with his barehands?

-Why do you want to know that? You implied that Urien is as hard as iron, Ryu has cut through steel, and steel is as hard, if not, harder than iron, so what does that question have to do with anything?

- http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34780 Aegis Reflector can be destroyed.

- Those meteors are smaller than Ryu, if your talking about the ones in the actual game. No way in hell would that get past his energy field.

- Good question, but..

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
I guess I must repeat myself.

True Dragon Blade allows ryu to fight the Dark Dragon Blade & Strengthens the blade That's it.

And, as for ryu fighting world killers in H2H, his weapons have no special properties, it's all him so it wouldn't be far fetched to say he would stand a chance. Especially considering he has ninpo's and projectiles.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
No, they are not. His weapons have no magical properties what's so ever. All his essence attacks are hayabusa's Skill. The only weapon that is a plot device is the True Dragon Blade because it allows him to fight against the DARk Dragon Blade.

It's only for the Dark Dragon Blade.

The TDS is a weapon, The Orochi Power and Satsui No Hadou is not!

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
We have shown Ryu's DS dealing with steel and creatures that can withstand magma. They are separate examples, but that doesn't prove it will not work on Urien.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

You know Itagaki is obsessed with making hard games. That is the sole reason Ryu's enemies are able to stand up to him. You want an overpowered character storming through everyone and everything in-game try Devil May Cry 2.

This is ridiculous, your claiming that the reason that his enemies were able to rush him down was because of a game restriction, christ. Again, hayabusa does not breeze through enemies, he struggles alot, and it's noot because of a game restriction. Hell the Vigoorian Army had the drop on him and he couldn't even beat the helicopter when he first encountered it as shown by the following cutscene. Not to mention his first bout with Murai was not easy. In Doa on the other hand, he is deliberately overpowered like all the other ninja's. Itagaki even said he made the ninja's overpowered on purpose

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

Teleportation makes short work of Aegis Reflector. It won't corner him. Which is AR's most dangerous ability.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

Superior reaction skills, speed & teleportation makes it possible for Ryu to handle Urien & Gill. Shit he fights boss fights with numerous, never ending, extra opponents. Lets not get into mission mode..

-Mission mode isn't canon
-And, hayabusa is not God, get over it.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime

In one of your earlier posts, regarding Gouki vs Ryu I believe, you commented on how the Ultimate Techniques and everything Ryu does with his weapons is all him, and not the dreaded "Plot Device" you are now trying to impose on us. I believe that's what he's getting at.

Re-read what I posted on that thread, I said it was a plot device that only Helped in his fight with the Dark Dragon blade. I never claimed that it was not a plot device, I forgot about his fight with alma, where he managed to stalemate her.

I'm not saying that the TDS makes him have new abilities, I've constantly said that the properties of the TDS are unknown and that they do not add to Ryu's abilities from what I've seen. But, it does not change the fact that Ryu went from Stalemating Alma with the DS to Destroying: Alma in her second form,Spirit Doku, Nicchae and Ishatros in a team (Nicchae is similar to Alma's first form, and Hayabusa completely beat her whilst having help when he only stalemated Alma),Marbus, and the users of the DDB.

So, obviously there was a change in power,but since the properties of said plot device are unknown it's up in te air as to what the TDS. All, I know are those wins are due to a plot device.