Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, and Vader would be significantly better at moving objects with he force than Palpatine.
I think there is sufficient enough proof from a higher source of canon (G-canon) that disproves this.
Also, in the DSSB, it says Vader's armor boosts his strength with Sith Alchemy.
Sure, but even with said augments, the DSSB doesn't state that he is physically stronger than Bane.
My advice? Use the statistics to back up an argument.
It's not there to definitively prove that Bane is stronger, other points can be used with it to indicate the most likely situation being that Bane is physically stronger. (ie., each Orbalisk pumping him with adrenaline, strength, and darkside energies)
Zephiel's correct here, I see no reason as to why stats cannot be used to support an argument (as long as there are no contradictions between the stats, and higher sources [i.e. Sidious' 'move object' skill is lower than Vader's, as pointed out, but that doesn't dismiss the rest as a whole], and the argument has merit behind it).
Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?
Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.
But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.
Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction. - Leland Chee [Tasty Taste], page 37 of Holocron continuity database questions.
If the stats were to be used as a stand alone case, of course they could be dismissed (save for powers, etc.), but in zephiel's case, there are several other supplementary points.
Palpatine is as strong as Windu, physically.
Obi Wan is physically stronger than Anakin.
Greivous is Stronger than Bane, Vader, Tarfull, Chewie, etc.
Ludo Kreshh ( http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=1&page=085 ) , can lift a maximum of 230 lbs. above his head.
Look, before someone misinterprets what I’ve been saying, I will clarify.
I’m not saying that the DSSB is the be all and end all; that’s Lucas. If there are elements represented in the DSSB that contradict Lucas’ interpretation, then it can be considered non-canon. On the other hand, elements from the DSSB that do not contradict Lucas’ interpretation should be considered more canon than our interpretation.
EDIT: Advent nailed it.
Originally posted by zephiel7
The statistical interpretation of attributes are more reliable than our interpretations. It's sufficiently substantiated, by the very nature of the Orbalisks themselves.
So? Bane was being pumped with organisms that supplied him with darkside energies and extra adrenaline. There is no reason to assume Vader is stronger just because he has mechanical limbs.
The DSSB doesn’t even have a statistical interpretation for Luke or DE Sidious, so I don’t see your point at all. Anything ivented by the player is non canon, and can't be used to support an argument. Items reviewed by Lucasarts, are by their own merit, better than our interpretations. [/B]
[B]It's non canon, period. Meaning you can't use it in a debate?
Read the quote from Chee. He says that the stats themselves can be used to scale characters with respect to one another. They are based on continuity, and what is already known, thus made as consistent with continuity as possible. The only reason why they would be rendered invalid is if a merited comic or novel disproves of said stat comparison.
Furthermore, we can logically deduce the fact that a cyborg will always be more powerful than a human, rendering your stats useless.
You’re ignoring the fact that Bane has a hundred or so Orbalisks pumping adrenaline, strength, and darkside energies to augment his strength. By himself, he was a mountain of muscle.
Also, just because something is mechanical - which coincidentally is the case with most cyborgs today - doesn’t automatically make it stronger. It helps, certainly, but is not the be all and end all factor. Otherwise, C 3PO would kick the shit out of Bobba Fett in an arm wrestle.
Uh, why not? That's like saying the guy who played the incredible hulk can possibly be stronger than the terminator.
The last time I checked, the guy playing the Hulk did not have a hundred or so Orbalisks pumping him constantly with afore mentioned attributes. This is not including the fact that Eric Banna is a pussy. A better comparison would be with Jason Statham, or the Rock.
I've seen the star wars roleplaying game, and apparently my point flew over your head. The stats had Exar Kun above Luke.
No… Luke wasn’t even mentioned in his NJO or DE incarnations.
In fact I remember Ragnos' stats being above everybody in the SW Universe
You remember wrong, DS, you remember wrong.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Read the quote from Chee. He says that the stats themselves can be used to scale characters with respect to one another. They are based on continuity, and what is already known, thus made as consistent with continuity as possible. The only reason why they would be rendered invalid is if a merited comic or novel disproves of said stat comparison.
You’re ignoring the fact that Bane has a hundred or so Orbalisks pumping adrenaline, strength, and darkside energies to augment his strength. By himself, he was a mountain of muscle.
Also, just because something is mechanical - which coincidentally is the case with most cyborgs today - doesn’t automatically make it stronger. It helps, certainly, but is not the be all and end all factor. Otherwise, C 3PO would kick the shit out of Bobba Fett in an arm wrestle.
You remember wrong, DS, you remember wrong. [/B]
When you are using stats as your argument, they are non canon.
Are they the only thing constituting my argument? If you believe so, then I think you need your eyes examined. I said that Bane has Orbalisks surrounding his entire body, supplying his muscles with adrenaline, strength, and darkside energies. The stats are only used to support the point – they aren’t stand alone.
According to Chee, stats are based on what is known and is valid as per what is known and hence applicable to an argument.
stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis-
Until you can give me a quote from another official disapproving what Chee stated, then I have no cause to believe your assertion that stats can’t be used as basis – which they can. Unless you can supply a quote from another official disapproving Chee’s words, I really don’t feel the need to respond to this any longer.
As was Vader
Begs proof. Last I checked, he was never described as a mountain of muscle, before his cybernetic implants. He was strong, sure, but so are all Jedi when they use the force to augment augment their attributes. Notwithstanding the force to augment strength, Bane by comparison was stronger than Anakin.
who was half machine, half cyborg,
Half machine/half cyborg? You mean half machine/half human? Or just cyborg?
As I said before, the fact he has mechanical limbs doesn’t automatically make him stronger than Bane. Otherwise, just because Threepio has mechanical limbs, he would pwn Boba Fett in an arm wrestle.
with more raw force abilities than Bane
I thought we’ve been over the point that potential does not equal how effectively one can use the force to enhance their abilities or attack. Otherwise, Anakin would be stronger than Sidious or Yoda in ROTS.
If by what you stated as raw force abilities meant how far he recognized his potential, then the burden of proof is on you to supply whether he has done so to the level of Bane, since you are asserting that he has.
You want to play word games? Terminator? Robocop? Vader? What do they all have in common? They are cyborgs with freakish power.
It begs proof that Vader is as physically strong as Terminator or Robocop for the same reasons. Vader has the force to augment his physical abilities – as does Bane – whereas the other two do not. Ergo, you can’t state that just because he has cybernetic implants, he is as strong as he is shown to be.
Bane on the other hand was a mountain of muscle. The adrenaline continuously pumping through his system makes him hyperaware and able to exert several leagues more than a regular human being. The dark side energies and continuous strength pumped in only synergize this effect. What more, the dark side source book statistics – which a continuity official states we can use as a basis - supports the idea that with Orbalisks, Bane is stronger than Vader.
There's more than 1 canon star wars roleplaying game.
? Ragnos’ stats were only introduced in the DSSB.
As for more than one canon roleplaying game… I have no clue what you are talking about.
It's difficult to determine who's physically stronger. An argument for Bane (stats aside) I would think should revolve around the idea that he's flesh and blood (orbalisks included) and that as a result he's muscles are capable of expanding and allowing him to perform greater feats of strength.
The flip side of that argument is that however strong he becomes he's human and there's a limit to how much physical power the orbalisks can grant him - plus there's the little problem of having a lower sub atomic density than Vader i.e. captain america (Bane) -iron man analogy (Vader).
As for Vader the only down side of being a cyborg is that there's a greater limitation on how much strength his body can have, not unless he can under go an upgrade; unlikely given the circumstances of his cybernetic implants.
But if I had to guess who's stronger, I'd go for Vader. Bane is all organic, meaning he's body is less likely to withstand the highest physical pressures Vader can endure. In as much as Bane is super human (relatively speaking), Vader's physical strength I would guess could possibly be beyond any flesh-and-blood human's.
Exapnding a little bit on my point about Vader's greater sub atomic density. Vader's cyborg body gives him a higher potential than Bane for achieving super human feats of strength.
Think about it, Vader has metallic machinery to use as he wills, while Bane has a flesh and blood body, which while impressive (and more fluid), isn't quite as unyielding as what Vader has.
Originally posted by zephiel7Well zephiel you forgot that the orbalisks slow down bane according to DSSB when it stated that each scale weighs 1kg and banes entire body is covered with them, Isnt it logical to assume he will be slower?
Are they the only thing constituting my argument? If you believe so, then I think you need your eyes examined. I said that Bane has Orbalisks surrounding his entire body, supplying his muscles with adrenaline, strength, and darkside energies. The stats are only used to support the point – they aren’t stand alone.According to Chee, stats are based on what is known and is valid as per what is known and hence applicable to an argument.
stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis-
Until you can give me a quote from another official disapproving what Chee stated, then I have no cause to believe your assertion that stats can’t be used as basis – which they can. Unless you can supply a quote from another official disapproving Chee’s words, I really don’t feel the need to respond to this any longer.
Begs proof. Last I checked, he was never described as a mountain of muscle, before his cybernetic implants. He was strong, sure, but so are all Jedi when they use the force to augment augment their attributes. Notwithstanding the force to augment strength, Bane by comparison was stronger than Anakin.
Half machine/half cyborg? You mean half machine/half human? Or just cyborg?
As I said before, the fact he has mechanical limbs doesn’t automatically make him stronger than Bane. Otherwise, just because Threepio has mechanical limbs, he would pwn Boba Fett in an arm wrestle.
I thought we’ve been over the point that potential does not equal how effectively one can use the force to enhance their abilities or attack. Otherwise, Anakin would be stronger than Sidious or Yoda in ROTS.
If by what you stated as raw force abilities meant how far he recognized his potential, then the burden of proof is on you to supply whether he has done so to the level of Bane, since you are asserting that he has.
It begs proof that Vader is as physically strong as Terminator or Robocop for the same reasons. Vader has the force to augment his physical abilities – as does Bane – whereas the other two do not. Ergo, you can’t state that just because he has cybernetic implants, he is as strong as he is shown to be.
Bane on the other hand was a mountain of muscle. The adrenaline continuously pumping through his system makes him hyperaware and able to exert several leagues more than a regular human being. The dark side energies and continuous strength pumped in only synergize this effect. What more, the dark side source book statistics – which a continuity [b]official
states we can use as a basis - supports the idea that with Orbalisks, Bane is stronger than Vader.? Ragnos’ stats were only introduced in the DSSB.
As for more than one canon roleplaying game… I have no clue what you are talking about. [/B]
Originally posted by allfgtrue they are smaller, Bout half as heavy as the original id say? But the fact remains it covers his entire body.
Actually only the original orbalisks weighed that much (only about 4). The orbalisks that subsequently budded weren't so heavy (as can be seen by their size).
Everything comes with a price you know,(You know what i mean)