Who better to tier heroes . . .?

Sub-Skyfather
Despero, Thanos, The Keeper, Dr. Strange (classic), The Doctor, Mangog, Dr. Fate, Ion (current), The General (Shaggy Man), Tyrant (powered down), Onslaught, Gog, Superman 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Validus, High Evolutionary, Eclipso, Elders of the Universe -- minus Ego, Circe

Herald
Morg, Terrax, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Thor, Sentry, The Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Loki, Gladiator, Quasar, Majestic, Orion, Infinity-Man, Superman, Captain Marvel (DC), Superman Blue/Red, Beta Ray Bill, Hyperion, Doomsday, Binary, General Zod, Mon-El, Supergirl, Stardust, Black Adam, Eradicator, Firelord, Original Lobo, Martian Manhunter, Fernus, Supreme (Leifeld), Genis-Vell, Red Shift, Waverider, The Fallen One, The Flash (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), Sinestro, Cyborg Superman, Spartan 3.0, Void, Amazo, Alex Nero, Captain Atom, Wildfire, Wonder Woman, Rachel Grey (Phoenix II)

Sub-Herald
Magneto, Apocalypse, Graviton, Sersi, Nate Grey, Hulk, Mandarin, Holocaust, Ultron, Super Skrull, FP Cable, Black Bolt, Engineer, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Juggernaut, Vision, Mar-Vell, Breach, He-Man, Hercules (Immortal), Raven, Aquaman, Superboy, Animal Man, Darkness, Dr. Doom (w/magic), Invincible, Mimic (Exiles), Shaman, Sasquatch, Vulcan, Karate Kid, Ultra Boy, Matrix Supergirl, Dr. Light, Pitt, Union, Prime, Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond, Dr. Polaris, Kalibak, Maxima, Mongul, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Jade, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Selene (External), Jericho, Ronan the Accuser, Super Skrull, Bizarro, Manchester Black, Major Force, Jason Rusch, Red Tornado, The Ray, Cir-El, Cassandra Nova, Miss Martian, Meggan, Tempest, Apollo, Professor X, Absorbing Man, Graviton, Monica Rambeau (Captain Marvel), Shadow King

Mid-Tier
Iron-Man, Colossus, Thing, Starfire, Thing, Abomination, Wonder Man, Namor, Ghost Rider, Rogue, Storm, Maul, Ms. Marvel, Blastaar, Captain Britain, Cyborg, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Gamora, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Guardian I, Classic Nova, Deathlok, Speedfreek, She-Hulk, Atom Smasher, War Machine, Human Torch, The Tick, Thunderstrike, Toxin, Lightning Lad, Havok, Mr. Sinister, Omega Red, Beast Boy, Metallo, Box, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Doc Ock, Venom, Carnage, Atlas, Mister Hyde, Box, Attuma, Thunder, Grace Choi, Shift, Power Girl, Aegis, Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr, Bishop, Crystal, Electro, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Emma Frost, Firehawk, Bombshell, Black Canary, Steel, Booster Gold, Psylocke, Rachel Summers, Nico Minoru

Enhanced
Wolverine, Killer Croc, Luke Cage, Deathstroke, Spider-Man, Midnighter, Angel, Sabretooth, Morlun, Beast, Cyclops, Drizzt Do'Urden, Bruenor Battlehammer, Wulfgar, Azrael, Lady Deathstrike, Iron Fist, Beast, Bullseye, Gambit, Taskmaster, Vulture, Mysterio, Vermin, Man-Bat, Orka Humbug, Spider-Woman, Arachne, Arana, Kingpin, Silver Samurai, Ravager, Nightcrawler, Creeper, Victor Mancha, Kid Devil, Molly Hayes, Mystique

Street
Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Green Arrow, Captain America, Swift, Grifter, Turok, Wildcat, Taskmaster, Elektra, Batgirl, Black Panther, Nick Fury, Punisher, Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Nomad, Nuke, Ra's Al Ghul, Arsenal/Red Arrow, Black Cat, Catwoman, Echo, Misty Knight, Shang Chi, Coleen Wing, Black Widow, Robin, White Tiger, Deadshot, Lady Shiva, Talia, The Question

Queries/Suggestions:
-Apollo doesn't really cut it as a Herald considering the company in that class, and the calibre of some of the characters in the Sub-Herald level. xmarks suggests Sub-Herald.
-DC Circe is not Sub-Herald. xmarks suggests an upgrade to Herald level if not higher.
-What has eXiles Mimic done that would place him in Sub-Herald? xmarks suggests Mid-Tier.
-Professor X is a powerful telepath, but his telepathy alone is insufficient to be considered Herald level. xmarks suggests Mid-Tier.
-Mystique's metamorphic abilities now provide her with a moderate healing factor, highly enhanced natural durability, enhanced strength, ability to morph herself into metallic substances, replication of physical mutations e.g. flight, prehensile tail, night-vision and even the ability to phase through walls. xmarks suggests Enhanced.

Added: Psylocke, Rachel Summers, Cassandra Nova, Meggan, Victor Mancha, Miss Martian, Tempest, Kid Devil, Nico Minoru, Molly Hayes

points addressed. thanks x. 🙂

the only one i really questioned was charlie being mid-tier. he was sub-herald not herald, and that seems pretty fair. 😬

query: should shadow king be herald?

Have enough of the Elders demonstrated power that would put them at SubSkyfather?

An Important Mesage:

This thread is designed to portray characters as they have been shown MOST CONSISTENTLY in their histories!!!

what does that mean, exactly?

that means that just because ironman has one-shotted the hulk, and ktfo'd silver surfer AND terrax, it means that just because hulk has shattered plantary bodies and shaken entire DIMENSIONS with his strength, does NOT mean both are sub-skyfather level!!

stop looking at high end feats to suport your 'theories' that certain characters belong in certain levels. it gets annoying, but more importantly, it brings BIAS to what i am DESPERATELY TRYING to keep as an UN-BIASED listing.

i freely admit i do not KNOW all these guys, but i HAVE been asking around to certain people whose opinions i respect and have been having people check the list to be sure no EGREGIOUS errors have occurred. by EGREGIOUS i mean someone is off 2 levels.

low herald and high subherald are essentially the same levels, so stop bickering over what are very minor variations in levels. i placed wonder woman in herald, though she is certainly low level herald, as are cap marvel and lobo, imo. and ALL of them could be placed in the lower tier even though they have good showings against superman. superman's feats alone speak for themselves and makes him WELL WORTHY of herald. captain atom most likely should NOT be herald. i've got about 60 issues of atom books and at his most consistent, he is NOT herald, but again strides that boundary between.

in any event, stop bitching about things. tactfully suggest, bring evidence to bear like you would in any thread if you want. i am NOT making these decisions arbitrarily, nor alone. what you see is a list approved thus far by a number of well-respected members of the forum.

perfect?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but it will NEVER be perfect.

*end rant*

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Have enough of the Elders demonstrated power that would put them at SubSkyfather?

most have -- collector, grandmaster, champion (at times) gardner. obliterator was beaten by surfer, astrologer hasn't shown much, but in general they all wield the power primordial and should be viewed as beyond herald in most cases, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
most have -- collector, grandmaster, champion (at times) gardner. obliterator was beaten by surfer, astrologer hasn't shown much, but in general they all wield the power primordial and should be viewed as beyond herald in most cases, imo.

I agree that they're beyond heralds but I don't think they're individually quite on the level of the guys in SubSkyfather.

Personally I'd put them at very very high herald.

What are we trying to achieve here? I mean, I know you're compiling a list.. But once you've finished.. then what?

Or are you intending to use it in future tournaments so things like the Tricksterpreist fiasco doesn't happen again?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
What are we trying to achieve here? I mean, I know you're compiling a list.. But once you've finished.. then what?

Or are you intending to use it in future tournaments so things like the Tricksterpreist fiasco doesn't happen again?

Some people just like making lists or creating oganized sets.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Some people just like making lists or creating oganized sets.

Ah fair enough, a hobby's a hobby I guess.

But if you could get every to agree on the list I reckon it could probably help with tournaments actually, not that I would actually know.. Never joined one 🙄 that's beside the point anyways.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Ah fair enough, a hobby's a hobby I guess.

But if you could get every to agree on the list I reckon it could probably help with tournaments actually, not that I would actually know.. Never joined one 🙄 that's beside the point anyways.

😂 get everyone to agree on the list. Some how I don't think thats likey.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
😂 get everyone to agree on the list. Some how I don't think thats likey.

I know, it'd never happen. I reckon a few people would be idiots and not agree on the list just because it would stop them from getting in people over the limits, still more power to them if they did so 😎

A Proposal:

Because there seems to be so much bickering over the herald/sub-herald levels, i have (against my better judgement) added a level.

do you LIKE the addition of a level? i did a lot of shifting but is there MORE shifting that needs to be done?

i SWEAR this is the ONLY CHANGE I WILL MAKE TO THIS HIERARCHY!! this new list CAN be disregarded if you guys think we should just stick to 5 tiers.

anyway, the NEW list:

Sub-Skyfather
Despero, Thanos, The Keeper, Dr. Strange (classic), The Doctor, Mangog, Dr. Fate, Ion (current), The General (Shaggy Man), Tyrant (powered down), Onslaught, Gog, Superman 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Validus, High Evolutionary, Eclipso, Elders of the Universe -- minus Ego, Circe

Herald
Morg, Terrax, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Thor, Sentry, The Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Gladiator, Quasar, Majestic, Orion, Infinity-Man, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Beta Ray Bill, Hyperion, Doomsday, Binary, Mon-El, Stardust, Eradicator, Firelord, Martian Manhunter, Fernus, Supreme (Leifeld), Genis-Vell, Red Shift, Waverider, The Fallen One, The Flash (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), Sinestro, Cyborg Superman, Spartan 3.0, Void, Amazo, Alex Nero, Wildfire, Rachel Grey (Phoenix II)

Sub-Herald
Captain Marvel, (DC), General Zod, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Lobo, Magneto, Captain Atom, Apocalypse, Graviton, Sersi, Nate Grey, Holocaust, Super Skrull, FP Cable, Black Bolt, Engineer, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Mar-Vell, Breach, He-Man, Raven, Superboy, Animal Man, Darkness, Dr. Invincible, Shaman, Vulcan, Ultra Boy, Matrix Supergirl, Dr. Light, Union, Prime, Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond, Dr. Polaris, Maxima, Mongul, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Jade, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Selene (External), Jericho, Ronan the Accuser, Super Skrull, Bizarro, Manchester Black, Major Force, Jason Rusch, Red Tornado, The Ray, Cir-El, Cassandra Nova, Miss Martian, Meggan, Tempest, Apollo, Professor X, Absorbing Man, Graviton, Monica Rambeau (Captain Marvel), Shadow King, Loki

Top Tier
Hulk, Mandarin, Ultron, Juggernaut, Vision, Hercules, Aquaman, Doom, Mimic (Exiles), Sasquatch, Karate Kid, Pitt, Kalibak, Ironman, Storm, Invisible Woman, Metallo

Mid-Tier
Colossus, Thing, Starfire, Thing, Abomination, Wonder Man, Namor, Ghost Rider, Rogue, Maul, Ms. Marvel, Blastaar, Captain Britain, Cyborg, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Gamora, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Guardian I, Classic Nova, Deathlok, Speedfreek, She-Hulk, Atom Smasher, War Machine, Human Torch, The Tick, Thunderstrike, Toxin, Lightning Lad, Havok, Mr. Sinister, Omega Red, Beast Boy, Box, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Doc Ock, Venom, Carnage, Atlas, Mister Hyde, Box, Attuma, Thunder, Grace Choi, Shift, Power Girl, Aegis, Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr, Bishop, Crystal, Electro, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Emma Frost, Firehawk, Bombshell, Black Canary, Steel, Booster Gold, Psylocke, Rachel Summers, Nico Minoru

Enhanced
Wolverine, Killer Croc, Luke Cage, Deathstroke, Spider-Man, Midnighter, Angel, Sabretooth, Morlun, Beast, Cyclops, Drizzt Do'Urden, Bruenor Battlehammer, Wulfgar, Azrael, Lady Deathstrike, Iron Fist, Beast, Bullseye, Gambit, Taskmaster, Vulture, Mysterio, Vermin, Man-Bat, Orka Humbug, Spider-Woman, Arachne, Arana, Kingpin, Silver Samurai, Ravager, Nightcrawler, Creeper, Victor Mancha, Kid Devil, Molly Hayes, Mystique

Street
Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Green Arrow, Captain America, Swift, Grifter, Turok, Wildcat, Taskmaster, Elektra, Batgirl, Black Panther, Nick Fury, Punisher, Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Nomad, Nuke, Ra's Al Ghul, Arsenal/Red Arrow, Black Cat, Catwoman, Echo, Misty Knight, Shang Chi, Coleen Wing, Black Widow, Robin, White Tiger, Deadshot, Lady Shiva, Talia, The Question

Originally posted by CasanoVa
What are we trying to achieve here? I mean, I know you're compiling a list.. But once you've finished.. then what?

Or are you intending to use it in future tournaments so things like the Tricksterpreist fiasco doesn't happen again?

actually, there are a couple reasons for the list:

newcomers to the board often make uneven threads and get ripped for it. the list will help people in making equal vs threads. there are also LOADS of characters out there that no one really knows anything about. the list will at least give SOME indication of where these guys are in the hierarchy. there is the tournament use as well, for certain, but it was more so people will understand a little better where certain characters fit -- APPROXIMATELY -- within the larger scope of characters in general.

feel free to offer suggestions for the list. 🙂

Sub-Skyfather
Despero, Thanos, The Keeper, Dr. Strange (classic), The Doctor, Mangog, Dr. Fate, Ion (current), The General (Shaggy Man), Tyrant (powered down), Onslaught, Gog, Superman 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Validus, High Evolutionary, Eclipso, Elders of the Universe -- minus Ego, Circe, Blackheart, Death Urge, Black Racer, Tanaraq, Nightmare

Herald
Morg, Terrax, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Thor, Sentry, The Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Gladiator, Quasar, Majestic, Orion, Infinity-Man, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Beta Ray Bill, Hyperion, Doomsday, Binary, Mon-El, Stardust, Eradicator, Firelord, Martian Manhunter, Fernus, Supreme (Leifeld), Genis-Vell, Red Shift, Waverider, The Fallen One, The Flash (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), Sinestro, Cyborg Superman, Spartan 3.0, Void, Amazo, Alex Nero, Wildfire, Rachel Grey (Phoenix II)

Sub-Herald
Captain Marvel (DC), General Zod, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Lobo, Magneto, Captain Atom, Apocalypse, Graviton, Sersi, Nate Grey, Holocaust, Super Skrull, FP Cable, Black Bolt, Engineer, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Mar-Vell, Breach, He-Man, Raven, Superboy, Animal Man, Darkness, Dr. Invincible, Shaman, Vulcan, Ultra Boy, Matrix Supergirl, Dr. Light, Union, Prime, Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond, Dr. Polaris, Maxima, Mongul, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Jade, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Selene (External), Jericho, Ronan the Accuser, Super Skrull, Bizarro, Manchester Black, Major Force, Jason Rusch, Red Tornado, The Ray, Cir-El, Cassandra Nova, Miss Martian, Meggan, Tempest, Apollo, Professor X, Absorbing Man, Graviton, Monica Rambeau (Captain Marvel), Shadow King, Loki, Death Metal, Starhawk, Lunatik, Count Nefaria, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom

Top Tier
Hulk, Mandarin, Ultron, Juggernaut, Vision, Hercules, Aquaman, Doom, Mimic (Exiles), Sasquatch, Karate Kid, Pitt, Kalibak, Ironman, Storm, Invisible Woman, Metallo, Mr. Sinister, Box, Cap Marvel Jr, Kang, Grim Reaper, Ulik, Living Laser, Zzaxx, Ultimo

Mid-Tier
Colossus, Thing, Starfire, Thing, Abomination, Wonder Man, Namor, Ghost Rider, Rogue, Maul, Ms. Marvel, Blastaar, Captain Britain, Cyborg, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Gamora, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Guardian I, Classic Nova, Deathlok, Speedfreek, She-Hulk, Atom Smasher, War Machine, Human Torch, The Tick, Thunderstrike, Toxin, Lightning Lad, Havok, Omega Red, Beast Boy, Box, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Doc Ock, Venom, Carnage, Atlas, Mister Hyde, Attuma, Thunder, Grace Choi, Shift, Power Girl, Aegis, Mary Marvel, Bishop, Crystal, Electro, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Emma Frost, Firehawk, Bombshell, Black Canary, Steel, Booster Gold, Psylocke, Rachel Summers, Nico Minoru, Death's Head II, Northstar, Aurora, Vance Astro, Tombstone, Klaw, Radioactive Man, Modok

Enhanced
Wolverine, Killer Croc, Luke Cage, Deathstroke, Spider-Man, Midnighter, Angel, Sabretooth, Morlun, Beast, Cyclops, Drizzt Do'Urden, Bruenor Battlehammer, Wulfgar, Azrael, Lady Deathstrike, Iron Fist, Beast, Bullseye, Gambit, Taskmaster, Vulture, Mysterio, Vermin, Man-Bat, Orka Humbug, Spider-Woman, Arachne, Arana, Kingpin, Silver Samurai, Ravager, Nightcrawler, Creeper, Victor Mancha, Kid Devil, Molly Hayes, Mystique, Puck, Charlie 27, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Puma, BlackLash

Street
Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Green Arrow, Captain America, Swift, Grifter, Turok, Wildcat, Taskmaster, Elektra, Batgirl, Black Panther, Nick Fury, Punisher, Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Nomad, Nuke, Ra's Al Ghul, Arsenal/Red Arrow, Black Cat, Catwoman, Echo, Misty Knight, Shang Chi, Coleen Wing, Black Widow, Robin, White Tiger, Deadshot, Lady Shiva, Talia, The Question, Baron Zemo, Batroc, Crossbones, Red Skull

Cool work you are doing here. 😄

But if this is intended for newcomers, you are wasting your time. They won't read it before they make a thread. They never read rules, or anything. 😛

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Cool work you are doing here. 😄

But if this is intended for newcomers, you are wasting your time. They won't read it before they make a thread. They never read rules, or anything. 😛

thanks. 😄

i think digi plans on pinning it in the vs forum though, so MAYBE it WILL get read. 😬

either way, it MAY make for some cool new vs threads. 🙂

Question, What puts superman and martian manhunter in Herald catagory, but not Captain marvel, black adam, wonder woman, captain atom, General Zod who has the same powers as Superman, BIzarro who has the same powers as superman, Maxima( who can clone herself, is nearly as strong as Superman, has Tp, Magnetism, and TK so powerful that she an rearrange molecules). How does lobo get Sub Herald when he constantly beats Superman's ass or stalemates him? The Shaggy Man is a subskyfather when he's just a regenerating Brick? HUH? Infinity Man and AMazo are more powerful than Everyone on the Herald List. Shouldn't they be Sub skyfather? Fernus is Above Herald lvl as well.

Sub-herald:

http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=Superman_v2_211_2005_Team-DCP_pg17.jpg

Originally posted by Soljer
Sub-herald:

http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=Superman_v2_211_2005_Team-DCP_pg17.jpg

That is not really saying much. That same "sub Herald" has killed Gods, Towed the equivelant of a hundred earths, Broken Superman's Ribs, Stalemated Captain Marvel who Stalemates Superman all of the time. She also has Light SPeed, FTL reflexes, and the strongest shield in comics. NOt to mention Three Uber Weapons. Two of which are one shot kills and the other has humbled Gods with Ultimate power. Try that again.

😆 Success.

Originally posted by Soljer
😆 Success.

She can beat Warlock for a HEFTY majority,and yet, he is on the herald list. nuff said.