Who better to tier heroes . . .?

WHy is sersi a Sub Herald? What puts MM over her? Can't she amp herself as strong as Immortal Herc? Actually Stronger? She is a high tier telepath, indestructible,( Her durability is better than Superman's or Surfer's, ANd she is a better matter manipulator than Surfer. The girls are getting the short end of the stick on this Herald lvl list IMO.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
First off, EVeryone with any sense can see that DIana has NEVER went all out against Superman. Try that Again. If She were, And he were going all out, She could kill him as quick as he her. Your being very sexist. He's not Leagues above her as you try and suggest. That would be very very wrong. If he were so much stronger than Her, Batman wouldn't have stated that he is the ONLY person on Earth who could restrain her if she got out of Control. And Superman Himself considers her the next line of defense after himself. IT really doesn't make anysense, If Diana were a male with her same stats, she would be considered a herald lvl being. Doesn't make sense that someone who can tow planets, move at light speed, and have as many magical uber weapons as her is only "sub Herald". As for Superman's T-Vo. DC writers have already stated that that power will never be used again. Also, CM's magical lighting is teh uber against Superman. And can be used in wide area dmg like BA used it. I'm not going for it. To suggest that Superman is Herald lvl and the others in his same weight class by DC definition doesn't sit well with me. AT all. And to say that Superman Far outclasses Diana is REDICULOUS. You dont' have ur ribs broken by someone you far outclass. And You don't punch someone at 8 times like speed without taking thier head off if your so far above them. You know. And the forum can kiss my ass about that herald gauntlet. Anyone knows damned well WW beats Firelord 8 days to sunday. He has no feats that put him anywhere at that class. That's like saying Firelord or Terrax beat CM or Superman for the majority. Not happening. Same thing for Wonder Woman. Here's Hoping the New Idiot writer of Wonder Woman gives her some actual feats to shut this freaking forum up. Wonder Woman Gets one excellent feat in JLA and people complain that she shouldn't have been able to speed blitz amazo. Hell, She is the only one I've seen that is NOT a flash, enter the speed force of her own accord.

And the Runner still has NO feats. Yet he is on the Subsky father list becuz of How well he does against Surfer. I could sure as hell make a list of Feats that make Diana, Black Adam, and CM all worthy of Herald LVL. The only thing Superman has going for him that they dont' is a sun amp. And she is divine in Nature. She has pulled Uber healing, the Godwave, and what ever else a writer can think of, out of her ass. IMO, that is enough.

If you think that has anything to do with why I, along with all of KMC except you, think she's below Superman, you're just ignorant.

Originally posted by Validus
Sub-Skyfather
Despero, Thanos, The Keeper, Dr. Strange (classic), The Doctor, Mangog, Dr. Fate, Ion (current), The General (Shaggy Man), Tyrant (powered down), Onslaught, Gog, Superman 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Validus, High Evolutionary, Eclipso, Elders of the Universe -- minus Ego, Circe, Blackheart, Death Urge, Black Racer, Tanaraq, Nightmare, Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Sun Eater, King Thor, Amazo, Takion, Fernus, Stayne, Superboy Prime, [b]Resurrection Man 1 Million

Herald
Morg, Terrax, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Thor, Sentry, The Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Gladiator, Quasar, Majestic, Orion, Infinity-Man, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Beta Ray Bill, Doomsday, Binary, Mon-El, Stardust, Eradicator, Firelord, Martian Manhunter, FernusSupreme (Leifeld), Genis-Vell, Red Shift, Waverider, The Fallen One, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), Sinestro, Cyborg Superman, Spartan 3.0, Void, Alex Nero, Wildfire, Rachel Grey (Phoenix II), Skeets, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Moonstone (w/ both stones)

Sub-Herald
Captain Marvel (DC), General Zod, Hyperion, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Lobo, Magneto, Captain Atom, Apocalypse, Graviton, Sersi, Nate Grey, Holocaust, Super Skrull, FP Cable, Black Bolt, Engineer, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Mar-Vell, Breach, He-Man, Raven, Superboy, Animal Man, Darkness, Dr. Invincible, Shaman, Vulcan, Ultra Boy, Matrix Supergirl, Dr. Light, Union, Prime, Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond, Dr. Polaris, Maxima, Mongul, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Jade, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Selene (External), Jericho, Ronan the Accuser, Super Skrull, Bizarro, Manchester Black, Major Force, Red Tornado, The Ray, Cir-El, Cassandra Nova, Miss Martian, Meggan, Tempest, Apollo, Professor X, Absorbing Man, Graviton, Monica Rambeau (Captain Marvel), Shadow King, Loki, Death Metal, Starhawk, Lunatik, Count Nefaria, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Etrigan, Lightray, Firestorm (Ronnie/Jason), Absorbing Man, Iceman, Darwin, Saturn Girl, Nova (current), Gilgamesh, Drax The Destroyer, Isis

Top Tier
Hulk, Mandarin, Ultron, Vision, Hercules, Aquaman, Doom, Mimic (Exiles), Sasquatch, Karate Kid, Pitt, Kalibak, Ironman, Storm, Invisible Woman, Metallo, Mr. Sinister, Box, Cap Marvel Jr, Kang, Grim Reaper, Ulik, Living Laser, Zzaxx, Ultimo, Sand, Ghost Rider II, Abomination, Ares, Juggernaut (Classic) Namor, Gamora, Plastic-man

Mid-Tier
Colossus, Thing, Starfire, Thing, Abomination, Wonder Man, Ghost Rider, Rogue, Maul, Ms. Marvel, Blastaar, Captain Britain, Cyborg, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Guardian I, Classic Nova, Deathlok, Speedfreek, She-Hulk, Atom Smasher, War Machine, Human Torch, The Tick, Thunderstrike, Toxin, Lightning Lad, Havok, Omega Red, Beast Boy, Box, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Doc Ock, Venom, Carnage, Atlas, Mister Hyde, Attuma, Thunder, Grace Choi, Shift, Power Girl, Aegis, Mary Marvel, Bishop, Crystal, Electro, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Emma Frost, Firehawk, Bombshell, Black Canary, Steel, Booster Gold, Psylocke, Rachel Summers, Nico Minoru, Death's Head II, Northstar, Aurora, Vance Astro, Tombstone, Klaw, Radioactive Man, Modok, Jenny Sparks, Elijah Snow, Ambrose Chase, Jakita Wagner, Terra, Blink, Blue Devil Morlun, Blob, Juggernaut(Depowered), Darkstar, Century, Rom, Vanguard, Charcoal, Balder, Machine Man, Moonstone, Wizard, Cloak, Kymaera/Namorita, Rage, Black Tarantula, Osiris

Enhanced
Wolverine, Killer Croc, Luke Cage, Deathstroke, Spider-Man, Midnighter, Angel, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Drizzt Do'Urden, Bruenor Battlehammer, Wulfgar, Azrael, Lady Deathstrike, Iron Fist, Beast, Bullseye, Gambit, Taskmaster, Vulture, Mysterio, Vermin, Man-Bat, Orka Humbug, Spider-Woman, Arachne, Arana, Kingpin, Silver Samurai, Ravager, Nightcrawler, Creeper, Victor Mancha, Kid Devil, Molly Hayes, Mystique, Puck, Charlie 27, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Puma, BlackLash, Swift, Shang Chi, 3-D man, Triathalon, Bane, Longshot, Falcon, Protocide, Constrictor, Speedball, Dagger, Blade

Street
Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Green Arrow, Captain America, Swift, Grifter, Turok, Wildcat, Taskmaster, Elektra, Batgirl, Black Panther, Nick Fury, Punisher, Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Nomad, Nuke, Ra's Al Ghul, Arsenal/Red Arrow, Black Cat, Catwoman, Echo, Misty Knight, Coleen Wing, Black Widow, Robin, White Tiger, Deadshot, Lady Shiva, Talia, The Question, Baron Zemo, Batroc, Crossbones, Red Skull, Night Thrasher [/B]

Originally posted by Validus
I stopped reading that wall of text once you called me sexist. 😂

If you think that has anything to do with why I, along with all of KMC except you, think she's below Superman, you're just ignorant.

Well you can call me ignorant all you want, Superman is a poor Herald lvler if he doesn't do so well against Others that people have as sub Herald lvlers. It's pathetic. He got his ribs broken by someone who he's so far ahead of. It's a shame such a mighty herald lvl being as Superman can't even kill Wonder WOman when he's bloodlusted and she is only trying to defend herself and save him. This mighty herald lvl superman Can't even Out right beat Captain marvel who is only a "sub Herald". Superman must be the weakest Herald on the list going by what our list says. And Zod and Bizarro have the same powers as Superman and are Sub heralds? I"m thinking this list needs some restructuring. Starting with the 2 Strongest Woman in comics. IF the Hulk could move as fast as wonder Woman and Fly, we'd certainly say he is herald lvl. So why isn't she? Sersi has uber powers and is only subherald?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Well you can call me ignorant all you want

Originally posted by Validus
Done deal.

From where I'm looking, I'm actually presenting an argument. You aren't really debuffing me. Your just talking smack. Superman is the poorest Herald on the List when he does so Poorly against All the Other "sub heralds". So either they aren't sub heralds, or Superman is a sub herald as well.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
From where I'm looking, I'm actually presenting an argument. You aren't really debuffing me. Your just talking smack.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I"m thinking this list needs some restructuring. Starting with the 2 Strongest Woman in comics.

Don't get me wrong. You can argue till your face turns blue for all I care. The bottom line is WW isn't get pushed up to list until the majority agrees on it. Good luck convincing us.

Originally posted by Validus
Says the guy who thinks we're sexist because Wonder Woman isn't listed with Superman. Be real here. You don't give a shit where Zod or CM are placed. All you're really concerned with is WW. 😂

And we're being sexist? Right.

Don't get me wrong. You can argue till your face turns blue for all I care. The bottom line is WW isn't get pushed up to list until the majority agrees on it. Good luck convincing us.

It's pure simple. The Hulk is listed as Sub Herald becuz of his strength. Diana is far and away stronger than Hulk. Speed also gets you on the Herald List correct? Well Diana is the only non Speedster to ever enter the speed force under her own power. You have to travel at SuperLuminal Speeds to get there. She is one of Only three beings in comics to post crisis to move a planet against the sun's gravity with only strength. Her lasso gaurantees a win against Any Herald and even the subskyfathers. Not one Herald or Subskyfather can crack her shields. Period. Sub Herald my eye. ANd I'm not going to even get into Sersi, BA, Zod, or CM. They are all Herald lvlers in my opinion. Even light ray is low classed to me. But hey, I'm going off of what they can do and have done at thier best. You can't really go off of average showings with DC, becuz Superman is the only one who has rediculous average showings. Every one else is written to not outshine Superman.

If you presented your opinion like that more often, I might start listening to you.

That's why i KNEW making herald level seem the next level beyond would cause problems.

Heralds = The chemists, and the brutes = the jocks.
Both can be top tier, or mid tier, but heralds don't operate on a level above as a whole.

Diana stronger than Hulk? Not buying it.

I always thought Wonder Woman was stronger then CM based on her gods being stronger then his :/

And why is Iceman sub-herald if this is going by character as well? If anything Elijah Snow is a far more intimidating, calculating and knowledgeable opponent and he isn't even top tier.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's pure simple. The Hulk is listed as Sub Herald becuz of his strength. Diana is far and away stronger than Hulk. Speed also gets you on the Herald List correct? Well Diana is the only non Speedster to ever enter the speed force under her own power. You have to travel at SuperLuminal Speeds to get there. She is one of Only three beings in comics to post crisis to move a planet against the sun's gravity with only strength. Her lasso gaurantees a win against Any Herald and even the subskyfathers. Not one Herald or Subskyfather can crack her shields. Period. Sub Herald my eye. ANd I'm not going to even get into Sersi, BA, Zod, or CM. They are all Herald lvlers in my opinion. Even light ray is low classed to me. But hey, I'm going off of what they can do and have done at thier best. You can't really go off of average showings with DC, becuz Superman is the only one who has rediculous average showings. Every one else is written to not outshine Superman.

I disagree with some of what you said but I'd give WW a vote for HeraldLevel.

So...until 'Extreme' becomes fashionably retro, how about...
'Profound'?
'Major'?
'Mega'?
'Supra'?
'Ultra'?
'Nuclear'?
'Atomic'?
'Intense'?
'Heavy'?
'Enhanced II'?
'Really/Truly Enhanced'?

...I mean, something. Imagine this conversation,
Hawkeye says to Captain America: "You mean [insert name here] is not Enhanced Level?"
Cap: "I wish. He's beyond that. He's [cue ominous music]...Mid Tier."

Hawkeye: 🤨

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
I always thought Wonder Woman was stronger then CM based on her gods being stronger then his :/

And why is Iceman sub-herald if this is going by character as well? If anything Elijah Snow is a far more intimidating, calculating and knowledgeable opponent and he isn't even top tier.

Nah. Diana is weaker than Superman. Captain Marvel is as strong as Superman.

The discrepancy between Diana being stronger than Hercules, and Captain Marvel being as strong as hercules was explained away by saying that there are an infinite number of each 'god.'

Captain Marvel's patron god's aren't the classic gods. They are the 'lords of magic.'

Originally posted by Soljer
Nah. Diana is weaker than Superman. Captain Marvel is as strong as Superman.

The discrepancy between Diana being stronger than Hercules, and Captain Marvel being as strong as hercules was explained away by saying that there are an infinite number of each 'god.'

Captain Marvel's patron god's aren't the classic gods. They are the 'lords of magic.'

HOw come Diana was able to match CM strength for STrength in War of the Gods? Herculese is extremely strong in the WW books and Diana is his better. In DC, Herculese is a God and she even calls him Lord Herculese and yet, she is still stronger than He. I'd Say she is as strong as CM and Superman. And Superman gets the edge due to sun amps.

Originally posted by Mindship
So...until 'Extreme' becomes fashionably retro, how about...
'Profound'?
'Major'?
'Mega'?
'Supra'?
'Ultra'?
'Nuclear'?
'Atomic'?
'Intense'?
'Heavy'?
'Enhanced II'?
'Really/Truly Enhanced'?

...I mean, something. Imagine this conversation,
Hawkeye says to Captain America: "You mean [insert name here] is not Enhanced Level?"
Cap: "I wish. He's beyond that. He's [cue ominous music]...Mid Tier."

Hawkeye: 🤨

Trancendent 313

You're pretty much the only person on the planet, DC included, that thinks Wonder Woman is as strong as Kal-El and Billy. The majorities not always right, true, but you may want to look into it.

Originally posted by Soljer
You're pretty much the only person on the planet, DC included, that thinks Wonder Woman is as strong as Kal-El and Billy. The majorities not always right, true, but you may want to look into it.

Nah. The Gods also thought Diana was a match for Billy. They even discuss it in War of the Gods. Also batman's omac files have Diana's strength and Speed and durability at the same lvl as clarks. The only thing he had a clear advantage on her was his flight/travel speed. The Spectre says that they were two of the mightiest beings in the universe. If she were that much weaker than he and CM, She wouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

Computer files hold as much weight as handbooks.

She's always been a peer to Superman, but hardly ever presented as his equal.

Cap Marvel is his physical equal, but the lack of true energy projection does him in.

And what about in UnderWorld Unleashed, when Cap beat a possessed WonderWoman and Martian Manhunter?

Hell made them evil and less restrained, and he did well against them.

I loved how in OWAW, the Team of Superman, Cap Marvel and Captain Atom was thought to be the most concentrated union of brute superhero power evah!

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
It's pure simple. The Hulk is listed as Sub Herald becuz of his strength.

no he isn't. he's TOP TIER because of his strength AND healing factor AND continual amping.