Originally posted by Validus
As for the reason why no villains made it to the High Top, it's because that's just how it worked out and its their job to lose. Actually, they'll either lose all the time or just look dominate. That's why the Transcendent level has so many villains.
Bah. All you gotta do for top tier villians is go to the mid tier teams and get the villians that always win. And Zoom is Top tier anyday. He never loses unless he wants to or PIS. Top tier villians would be the guys that you need PIS to win against. Like Nefaria. Or The Maestro. Sinestro. Anyvillian who can vex the best of the best should be Top tier IMO. Lobo can vex the hell out of Superman over and over. Ultron, Dr. Doom, and Dr. Destiny all come to mind as villians who WTF pwn and only lose by Dumb Plot device Losses. Also the Ultimate Destroyer is another top tier villian. At least to me.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Well IMO, Orion has been written to be able to go hand to hand with DS on any given day. Superman has not. He always needs a power up, sun amp, good circumstance. And I"m not even talking about the Strength factor alone. Orion's Astro Force is just Superior to Anything SUperman can dish out. And He also has the mother BOx. Superman wins against anyone in DC who isn't Skyfather lvl. and even then he finds a way to win. Case in point, Dominus. I try not to pay too much attention to stuff when it's compared to him. Or else all of DC would be middle tier and marvel would have it all over for the Top tiers as thier Characters dont' jobber to one sole character.
Orion beat DS over a decade ago. What's he done since then? Grant Morrison turned him into a joke during his JLA run and he pretty much hasn't recovered from that. Superman has been on the upswing since Jeph Loeb put his stamp on the character. Maybe it's company politics but it's not like I'm going to bump down Kal just because his writers are fanboys.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Bah. All you gotta do for top tier villians is go to the mid tier teams and get the villians that always win. And Zoom is Top tier anyday. He never loses unless he wants to or PIS. Top tier villians would be the guys that you need PIS to win against. Like Nefaria. Or The Maestro. Sinestro. Anyvillian who can vex the best of the best should be Top tier IMO. Lobo can vex the hell out of Superman over and over. Ultron, Dr. Doom, and Dr. Destiny all come to mind as villians who WTF pwn and only lose by Dumb Plot device Losses. Also the Ultimate Destroyer is another top tier villian. At least to me.
Originally posted by Validus
There was no power up when Superman defeated Darkseid in Apokalips Now or when he embarrassed him in that Chuck Austen issue.Orion beat DS over a decade ago. What's he done since then? Grant Morrison turned him into a joke during his JLA run and he pretty much hasn't recovered from that. Superman has been on the upswing since Jeph Loeb put his stamp on the character. Maybe it's company politics but it's not like I'm going to bump down Kal just because his writers are fanboys.
You don't bump Down Superman. Just bump the others where they need to go. The runner hasn't done anything in years either, and yet we have him where he is still. Going by a combination of Feats, I'd say Orion is still Superior to Superman by way of the Astro Force and Mother Box. The best way for us to judge DC characters is to Take Superman out of the equation. EVERYONE is simply written to be inferior around him. And we know that likely, Martian Manhunter, Orion, Hell even Captain Atom or a Good GL should pwn Him no matter how hard he punches.
Originally posted by Validus
I would like to keep the 'Elite Top Tier' as UniOmni called it from getting too crowded. That sort of defeats the purpose of those guys being the best of the best.
And Yet there are villians who are the best of the best and can only lose by plot device. Or you'll have villians in the wrong class basically beating everyone in their class becuz they aren't heroes. Case in point, Sinestro. Or The Eradicator. Even Classic Juggernaut is a monster and really is High Top Tier. No one can pwn him unless they are a skyfather or have Severe magic or Tp or BFR powers.
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
The original Mongul was actually stronger than Planet-juggling Superman, and slapped him around like nothing. So my answer is yes.
Well, Mongul first appeared in the 80's (1980 or something like that in "For the Man Who Has Everything"😉 and at that point, Superman was on the downswing from his solar system sneezin', galaxy movin' power levels. I'm not sure how Mongul would stack up to Superman in the 50's, 60's, or 70's.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You don't bump Down Superman. Just bump the others where they need to go. The runner hasn't done anything in years either, and yet we have him where he is still.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The best way for us to judge DC characters is to Take Superman out of the equation. EVERYONE is simply written to be inferior around him
Furthermore, why would we take out Superman when he is the bar by which other heroes in DC are judged? I mean, I could make Wonder Man look pretty elite if I took Thor out the equation. Guy Gardner and John Stewart look pretty sweet when you take away Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And Yet there are villians who are the best of the best and can only lose by plot device. Or you'll have villians in the wrong class basically beating everyone in their class becuz they aren't heroes. Case in point, Sinestro. Or The Eradicator. Even Classic Juggernaut is a monster and really is High Top Tier. No one can pwn him unless they are a skyfather or have Severe magic or Tp or BFR powers.
Originally posted by batdude123
Lol, then why the f*ck is Adam Warlock in that level?
THat means that the best of the best in this lvl could pretty much be whoever is the most powerful of thier team and does crazy shit all the time. Invisible woman, M'Onel, Firestar, Jean Grey, Racheal Summers, StarHawk, Zoom, Omega IceMan, Gladiator, and yada yada. Gotta be a better way to do the Elite High Top tier. We need to make someone a marker to which all others stand against. To me, Quasar or a Good GL should be the marker for those who wield energy, and Wonder Woman would be the very lowest you have to be in strength to make it if you are a brick. Or you have to have some insane combo of powers like MM.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
THat means that the best of the best in this lvl could pretty much be whoever is the most powerful of thier team and does crazy shit all the time. Invisible woman, M'Onel, Firestar, Jean Grey, Racheal Summers, StarHawk, Zoom, Omega IceMan, Gladiator, and yada yada.
Transcendent:
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Top-Tier
High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor
Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Doomsday, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Loki, Majestic, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman
Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jade, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Rich Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter
Mid-Tier
High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Jenny Sparks, Juggernaut(Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Dust, Electro Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl
Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Death's Head II, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Low-Tier:
High Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, X-23
Middle Low-Tier:
Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat
Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
THat means that the best of the best in this lvl could pretty much be whoever is the most powerful of thier team and does crazy shit all the time. Invisible woman, M'Onel, Firestar, Jean Grey, Racheal Summers, StarHawk, Zoom, Omega IceMan, Gladiator, and yada yada. Gotta be a better way to do the Elite High Top tier. We need to make someone a marker to which all others stand against. To me, Quasar or a Good GL should be the marker for those who wield energy, and Wonder Woman would be the very lowest you have to be in strength to make it if you are a brick. Or you have to have some insane combo of powers like MM.
See, the problem with what you just did, is you named some exceptional people on mediocre teams.
Xmen? Great team made up of mostly streets and midtiers.
Fantastic Four? Great team made up of midtiers and one possible low end top tier in Thing.
Gladiator is top tier, and mid at that.
Look at the Outsiders. A team of midtiers with no top tiers.
Teams like that are a dime a dozen in comics.
The elite are the elite because of what they can do, and how they compare to other characters.
They almost always compare favorably to other characters.
Orion was mishandled by Morrison, losing his nobility and just becoming a raging brute with restraint.
Recent showings don't help, with him being captured by Firestorm, a midtier at best. I know he's your boy, but reality calls.