Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Well I was just making a point. Don't get all upset. If we just go by, who ever comes to save the day the most, then Scarlet Witch with her WTF powers and Racheal Summers and Others should be there too. Spawn before he became a God, as well.
A good post deserves a bump.
Originally posted by UniOmni
See, the problem with what you just did, is you named some exceptional people on mediocre teams.Xmen? Great team made up of mostly streets and midtiers.
Fantastic Four? Great team made up of midtiers and one possible low end top tier in Thing.
Gladiator is top tier, and mid at that.
Look at the Outsiders. A team of midtiers with no top tiers.
Teams like that are a dime a dozen in comics.
The elite are the elite because of what they can do, and how they compare to other characters.
They almost always compare favorably to other characters.
Orion was mishandled by Morrison, losing his nobility and just becoming a raging brute with restraint.
Recent showings don't help, with him being captured by Firestorm, a midtier at best. I know he's your boy, but reality calls.
Hmmmmm I wonder how people feel about Kilowag being High top tier. He is portrayed as Hal's Captain Marvel but has shown me more killer instinct and pull through then Kyle (but I just hate Kyle)
Transcendent:
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Top-Tier
High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor
Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Doomsday, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Majestic, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman
Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jade, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Loki, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Rich Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter
Mid-Tier
High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Juggernaut(Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Jenny Sparks, Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl
Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Death's Head II, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Low-Tier:
High Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, X-23
Middle Low-Tier:
Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat
Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
Transcendent:
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Top-Tier
High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor
Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Doomsday, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Loki, Majestic, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman
Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Geo-Force, Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jade, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Rich Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter
Mid-Tier
High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Jenny Sparks, Juggernaut(Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Dust, Electro Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl
Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Death's Head II, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Low-Tier:
High Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, X-23
Middle Low-Tier:
Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat
Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When I think "Most Powerful Member of the Fantastic Four." I don't think "Thing." But that's just an imo. 🙂
I probably should've elaborated.
Marvel has been consistently pushing Sue as the most powerful for what maybe two decades at least.
Thing is a second to her in power, Johnny third with more potential than Grimm.
On average though, if i had to choose one person on the FF to fight Superman or Hulk with, it'd be Ben Grimm, easy.
Transcendent:
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Top-Tier
High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor
Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Doomsday, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Loki, Majestic, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman
Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Geo-Force, Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jade, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Rich Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter
Mid-Tier
High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Jenny Sparks, Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl
Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Death's Head II, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Low-Tier:
High Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, The Cat, Captain America, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, X-23
Middle Low-Tier:
Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat
Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
If Mr Fantastic is going to go into "High Mid-Tier" then Jenny and Jack are staying put.
So I need to know something, are we making this listing as per KMC forum rules which is in NON jobbing mode? Or are we basing things on Current one time or Current story arc showins. Orion Non jobbing is a beast that isn't even comparible to the mishandling of him by Morrison or in Firestorm. And maybe Firestorm is actually being written up. Instead of always looking at things as low showings, we may want to look at things as high showings for characters. Like The Superman WonderWoman fight. It wasn't a low showing for him. It was a high showing for her. Same with Thanos and Odin. High Showing for Thanos. Tho Odin Should have won. Bah. What ever. Make the list how ever. But it doesn't seem to go with the KMC non jobbing non PIS/CIS rules. Which is why so many Villians are excluded from the High Top Tier and Others who should be higher aren't.
Originally posted by Validus
I was going to group the 'Wog with Hal and Kyle myself. You're right. He is the Captain Marvel to Hal's Superman but listing him with Guy and John is just wrong. I dunno.
Actually, i don't recall Superman ever looking flatout Superior to Cap Marvel ever in post crisis history.
I don't think DC would show that.
It seems to me, they'd rather him be away and occupied elsewhere and miss the battle, than have him show up just to look bad.
I'd say Kilowog is to Hal, what Arsenal is to Nightwing.
Nightwing can look better than Roy, since Batman is a much bigger draw and name than Green Arrow.
Might not make sense to you, but it melds perfectly to me.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So I need to know something, are we making this listing as per KMC forum rules which is in NON jobbing mode? Or are we basing things on Current one time or Current story arc showins. Orion Non jobbing is a beast that isn't even comparible to the mishandling of him by Morrison or in Firestorm. And maybe Firestorm is actually being written up. Instead of always looking at things as low showings, we may want to look at things as high showings for characters. Like The Superman WonderWoman fight. It wasn't a low showing for him. It was a high showing for her. Same with Thanos and Odin. High Showing for Thanos. Tho Odin Should have won. Bah. What ever. Make the list how ever. But it doesn't seem to go with the KMC non jobbing non PIS/CIS rules. Which is why so many Villians are excluded from the High Top Tier and Others who should be higher aren't.
If Superman is given a great tussle by Wonderman, isn't that clearly a lower showing for Superman?
When one character is clearly superior, and has a history of looking superior to another, and then a fight happens and the tides change, is has to be a low showing.
When it begins to happen consistently, maybe then we should stop looking at it like a low showing and just take it as a new meat to be averaged.
Originally posted by UniOmni
If Superman is given a great tussle by Wonderman, isn't that clearly a lower showing for Superman?When one character is clearly superior, and has a history of looking superior to another, and then a fight happens and the tides change, is has to be a low showing.
When it begins to happen consistently, maybe then we should stop looking at it like a low showing and just take it as a new meat to be averaged.
Superman has not consistantly ever been showing as having an Easy time with Wonder Woman that I can remember. IT's just that in this fight, he was clearly insane and Non jobbing and going all out, and yet she lived. And you didn't address my other points about the forum rules. This list doesn't really seem to go with the forum rules too much. Especially saying things like, The High Top tier are heroes you call on to get it done. Well, That would leave out villians who only lose due to PIS. It would also leave out the 2nd rate heroes who are not big sellers who get over looked. I.E. WaveRider, or BetaRay. BRB beat Starwhatever handily and yet is below him. I'm confused on that one. Waverider could beat pretty much anyone in high Top tier and due to his power. THat reminds me, Where is Hourman the robot?
Because she can control it to the extent that she can pull it from people's brains and kill them and electrocuted a being the size of a small moon. It's hard to "heavy duty ass kick" when you're technically dead.
The Human Torch and Mister Fantastic are in there too. In 50 years they've never done anything that I can think of to that extent with their powers. 🙂
Originally posted by xmarksthespotIf Mr Fantastic is going to go into "High Mid-Tier" then Jenny and Jack are staying put. [/B]
Stupid fanboy logic
Mr. Fantastic is a legitmate top tier, on even footing with the rest of the F4 and written as such.
Sparks is consistantly written as Elijah Snow (who can remove heat wherever he goes whereas Jenny's just a 99 year old female if she's far enough away from electricity, she'd even die) with PMS and Hawksmoor is consistantly written as slightly above Midnighter, believes this himself and has a mid tier powerset (it's laughable that he's even in the top tier)
Just answer me this. What can Hawksmoor do that Sand can't do better? Talk to Cities?
Drop buildings on people?
😂
Sand is Dust with the seismic abilities as far as I'm aware. Hawksmoor can do more than just that. See above. Among other things Hawksmoor can do that Sand has not afaik.
Mr Fantastic is not a top tier. And the Fantastic Four are not created equal with regard to power. See UniOmni's sequential listing of FF with regard to power.
Oh and I'm not going to argue with you, I've seen how futile it can be with Mr Sinister and telepathy. People are welcome to vote on where to put the two.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Superman has not consistantly ever been showing as having an Easy time with Wonder Woman that I can remember. IT's just that in this fight, he was clearly insane and Non jobbing and going all out, and yet she lived. And you didn't address my other points about the forum rules. This list doesn't really seem to go with the forum rules too much. Especially saying things like, The High Top tier are heroes you call on to get it done. Well, That would leave out villians who only lose due to PIS. It would also leave out the 2nd rate heroes who are not big sellers who get over looked. I.E. WaveRider, or BetaRay. BRB beat Starwhatever handily and yet is below him. I'm confused on that one. Waverider could beat pretty much anyone in high Top tier and due to his power. THat reminds me, Where is Hourman the robot?
In all honesty, the forum rules are laughable.
We debate without CIS(the characters personality in play?) and PIS(showings we don't like and wanna throw out?). Comics don't work like that.
Without a retcon, all showings should be fair game, even low ones.
And Superman is more powerful than Diana.
Faster, stronger, more durable and has actual formidable energy projection.
In For Tomorrow, he was faster than her, and wasn't intimidated by her.
In a Loeb issue of S/B, he killed her and choked her with her ribbon.
In LOO, she admitted that she couldn't take him on without prep.
There's a history here.
She's a peer, but he's flatout more powerful. Wonderman to His Thor.
And the fact that he thought he was fighting someone bigger and slower than her is a major factor as well.