Ranks for MAs

You're putting Red Hood alongside Shiva, Batgirl, Batman, Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Connor Hawke... 🤨 You must be joking.

And without any real discussion. And Punisher too... If it's just going to be Alfheim puts characters at certain levels on his opinion alone then what's the point.

The suggested hierarchy I posted was a foundation point upon which characters could be moved up and down based on discussion and consensus.

Devil Lance, jrodslam, Wally West (?), Soljer (?) and I all place him below Nightwing with regard to skill. A case could be made for him being placed in the same category perhaps, (I'm as yet unconvinced). He most definitely isn't on par with the DC characters listed as the Greatest Martial Artists.

With regard to both Punisher and Red Hood, being more brutal doesn't equate to being more skilled.

Originally posted by Wally West
Well if you've been to that respect thread you've just seen one-sided, biased descriptions of what happened. Nightwing was said to be deliberately holding back against Jason, but the scan that was said in was never posted. And even if you pretend he wasn't holding back, in none of their fights did Jason own him or prove he was decisevly better.

Well this is the thing I can look at it again but from what I could see there were quite a few fights and in all of them Red Hood came out on top. Most people agreed that Red Hood was better and I just got the impression that you were just b*tching.

Originally posted by Wally West

Like I've already pointed out, Jason needed to pull out a gun on Nightwing in the Outsiders after Nightwing had pinned him against the wall, how does needing to rely on a gun prove he is a better martial artist, which is the point of this thread?

Yeah thats just one fight the respect thread has loads of fights with Jason coming out on top.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
One of the best martial artists in the world.

Er ok, but do you have any showings with him against people like Batman or Nightwing? Catching GAs arrows is pretty impressive really and for that reason alone shoudl put him on top tier but I dont want to be too quick.

Yeah, if Alheim is just going to act like a seven year old about this thread, I think I'm done here.

"These are MY toys! I'm taking them and going home! HMPH!"

The Punisher was in the third tier because he belonged in the third tier.

Red Hood doesn't belong with Batgirl and Richard mother ****ing dragon.

With regard to cable, he definitely deserves second tier, but is NOT a "Greatest Martial Artist in the world," his showings of outskilling Wolverine are due to bad writing.

Don't take that as a cop out, please - but you have to realize that many writers do as many posters on these boards do. They look at Wolverine and see a brawler who lacks skill, jumps claw first into combat, and lets his adamantium do all the talking. There are several showings of Wolverine getting tooled by people that he shouldn't be.

Cable's really skilled, but no moreso than a serious Deadpool.

Also, Red Hood is Nightwing's equal in skill, at best. He winds up on top in most of their fights, I'll admit. But very often, Nightwing looks better. Nightwing is also almost ALWAYS holding back, or injured, or at gun point.....Oh, and the Red Hood respect thread is one of the most biased respect threads on this site in that regard.

But then again, why am I even trying? Alfhiem'll just **** up the order however he pleases, without discussion or taking into account the input of people who actually know what they're talking about. 🙄

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er ok, but do you have any showings with him against people like Batman or Nightwing? Catching GAs arrows is pretty impressive really and for that reason alone shoudl put him on top tier but I dont want to be too quick.

Deathstroke went to him because he knew he was better than him, but besides that, those are all the appearances I know of, I think he might be in a newer GA issue, I haven't checked in a while.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You're putting Red Hood alongside Shiva, Batgirl, Batman, Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Connor Hawke... 🤨 You must be joking.

Well ok I thought you put Nightwing in top tier, so thats why I put Red Hood there. Since Red Hood has beaten Nightwing on a regular basis he should be at least second tier.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

And without any real discussion. And Punisher too... If it's just going to be Alfheim puts characters at certain levels on his opinion alone then what's the point.

Furthermore Punisher was orginally second tier. Could you plaes show me who you discussed it with before you decided to change it. Did you discuss changing Red Hood as well?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The suggested hierarchy I posted was a foundation point upon which characters could be moved up and down based on discussion and consensus.

Well ok if you can show me where you discussed moving Frank Castle and Red Hood.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

With regard to both Punisher and Red Hood, being more brutal doesn't equate to being more skilled.

Thats not why I changed it.

Originally posted by Soljer
Yeah, if Alheim is just going to act like a seven year old about this thread, I think I'm done here.

"These are MY toys! I'm taking them and going home! HMPH!"

The Punisher was in the third tier because he belonged in the third tier.

Red Hood doesn't belong with Batgirl and Richard mother ****ing dragon.

With regard to cable, he definitely deserves second tier, but is NOT a "Greatest Martial Artist in the world," his showings of outskilling Wolverine are due to bad writing.

Don't take that as a cop out, please - but you have to realize that many writers do as many posters on these boards do. They look at Wolverine and see a brawler who lacks skill, jumps claw first into combat, and lets his adamantium do all the talking. There are several showings of Wolverine getting tooled by people that he shouldn't be.

Cable's really skilled, but no moreso than a serious Deadpool.

Also, Red Hood is Nightwing's equal in skill, at best. He winds up on top in most of their fights, I'll admit. But very often, Nightwing looks better. Nightwing is also almost ALWAYS holding back, or injured, or at gun point.....Oh, and the Red Hood respect thread is one of the most biased respect threads on this site in that regard.

But then again, why am I even trying? Alfhiem'll just **** up the order however he pleases, without discussion or taking into account the input of people who actually know what they're talking about. 🙄

The point is did you discuss it before you changed it?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The suggested hierarchy I posted was a foundation point upon which characters could be moved up and down based on discussion and consensus.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok if you can show me where you discussed moving Frank Castle and Red Hood.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The suggested hierarchy I posted was a foundation point upon which characters could be moved up and down based on discussion and consensus.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats not why I changed it.

Alfheim, great idea, but I'd suggest letting Xmarks take over, nothing personal.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I reiterated several times that my restructuring and suggested hierarchy were just that: suggested. With disclaimers. I've never vehemently opposed discussion over any particular changes, and when a change has been proposed I've only given my personal vote on it.

Ok so why were you freaking out when I made changes? I did what you did, made changes.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

No, I assumed it was because you really like Punisher, and are ignoring what everyone (besides Martian Mind) is saying about Red Hood.

Well my opinion is based on the Jason Todd respect thread there are lots of people who would agree with me. Furthermore I said im open to changing my mind.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Alfheim, great idea, but I'd suggest letting Xmarks take over, nothing personal.

Ok but I dont see why Frank and Red Hood should be in third.

Punisher isn't a great martial artist, he's a scrappy mother****er who knows how to use his surrondings to his advantage. Just like people with powers, that lets him keep up with the best martial artists. He's a great fighter, no doubt, one of the best, but he's not a great martial artist.

Red Hood I'd say is on Nightwing's level, I mean, there are feats supporting both being superior, some days one comes ahead, other days the other does.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Punisher isn't a great martial artist, he's a scrappy mother****er who knows how to use his surrondings to his advantage. Just like people with powers, that lets him keep up with the best martial artists. He's a great fighter, no doubt, one of the best, but he's not a great martial artist.

1. Early showings showings show good fights against DD and even Cap.
2. Beaten the **** out of Bullseye.
3. Last fight Punisher lost to DD but beat the **** out of him.

Originally posted by Nataku8188

Red Hood I'd say is on Nightwing's level, I mean, there are feats supporting both being superior, some days one comes ahead, other days the other does.

Ill go with second tier at least but does seem to beat Nightwing quite easily but I can change my mind.

Originally posted by Alfheim
1. Early showings showings show good fights against DD and even Cap.
2. Beaten the **** out of Bullseye.
3. Last fight Punisher lost to DD but beat the **** out of him.

I love how your response to Nataku's could be responded to...with Nataku's.

Punisher isn't a great martial artist, he's a scrappy mother****er who knows how to use his surrondings to his advantage. Just like people with powers, that lets him keep up with the best martial artists. He's a great fighter, no doubt, one of the best, but he's not a great martial artist.

Originally posted by Soljer
I love how your response to Nataku's could be responded to...with Nataku's.

What about my response. Apollknight shows you two scans of BP making Wolverine look stupid and you still think Elecktra can beat BP. You just like to ignore facts.

As for Punisher he did not use the surroundings to defeat bullseye he used skill the same with the last DD fight.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok

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Rules:
1. Any changes made, please try to bold them to point them out to others.
2. Alphabetize the list as needed.
3. Discussion should take place before a change, and a majority should agree with you before an official change takes place.
4. If you can't get support for a proposed change, let it drop once you've made your case.
5. Have fun and enjoy. This list obviously isn't perfect, but it will end up being one of the better indicators of MA skill anywhere by the time it's refined and added to.

Notes:
1. This list is based off of skill alone. No weapons or tools, and no powers. Bear that in mind when making changes.
2. PIS should not be considered.
3. Greatest Martial Artists is currently restricted to 15 people max. 6-7 Marvel, 6-7 DC and 0-3 Indie/Other. However this is subject to change as the overall list grows larger.

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Current Hierarchy

Cosmic tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun

Uber tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Gorgon, Ogun, Stick, Thanos

Top tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Deadpool, Daredevil, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Wonder Woman

Third tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Bane, Blade, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Red Hood, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, Storm, Thing

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

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Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim and Martian Mind] Red Hood to Second Tier: 2/0
[Alfheim] Punisher to Second Tier: 1/2 possible 3 (Nataku?)

Comments:
-I've placed Drakon tentatively in the Top Tier. Beating Connor would arguably place him there so he had my vote in addition to yours for now. If there are no votes against, then he'll stay unless someone makes a better case for another DC character.
-That leaves one spot for someone to move up from the Second Tier from Marvel. Not sure where to move him though.
-I'm proposing moving Midnight Sun out of the highest group, unless someone has something to indicate he's there solely through skill.
-I'm proposing Thanos be moved into the same category as Gamora.

Votes:
-Against Punisher
-Indifferent towards Red Hood. He's looked to be Nightwing's equal on quite a few occasions.
-Totally for putting Drakon in the Top Tier.
-For moving Midnight Sun. Where to, though?
-For putting Thanos with Gamora.

Originally posted by Soljer
Votes:
-Against Punisher
-Indifferent towards Red Hood. He's looked to be Nightwing's equal on quite a few occasions.
-Totally for putting Drakon in the Top Tier.
-For moving Midnight Sun. Where to, though?
-For putting Thanos with Gamora.

It would be good if you could actually give a reason why Punisher goes into thired tier and also why BP cant be in top tier.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What about my response. Apollknight shows you two scans of BP making Wolverine look stupid and you still think Elecktra can beat BP. You just like to ignore facts.

As for Punisher he did not use the surroundings to defeat bullseye he used skill the same with the last DD fight.

I don't ignore facts....

Elektra CAN beat T'Challa. 😕.

Again, the Punisher is a good fighter, and he's incredibly brutal. It's what lets him keep up with people who are VASTLY superior to him in skill. But, over all, he's a street fighter who is, comparatively, unskilled.

Originally posted by Alfheim
It would be good if you could actually give a reason why Punisher goes into thired tier and also why BP cant be in top tier.

1. Comic feats.

2. Why are you on my ass about this, and no one else who's agreed in the last five pages?

🙄.

Oh! Also, X, there was a proposal to move Gorgon down to Top Tier, or even to Second Tier. I'd agree he almost definitely doesn't belong in Uber. Not alongside Ogun and Stick, anyways.