Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by Soljer
I don't ignore facts....

Elektra CAN beat T'Challa. 😕.

Ok this is rubbish. You are making a statement without backing it up....prove it.

Originally posted by Soljer

Again, the Punisher is a good fighter, and he's incredibly brutal. It's what lets him keep up with people who are VASTLY superior to him in skill. But, over all, he's a street fighter who is, comparatively, unskilled.

Thats another statement with out backing it up.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Punisher Vs Bullseye

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40132sr.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40141vt.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40159um.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40169vo.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40175vn.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40182ho.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40193wi.jpg

Ok lets take this for example. Is Bullseye any less brutal than Frank?

Bullseye is far more skilled than Frank, I read Bullseye vs Punisher.. Half the time Bullseye wasn't even being serious and he out-prepped Frank like a *****.

If we were to go for average showing, purely H2H Frank would get utterly wrecked.

Originally posted by Soljer
Votes:
-Against Punisher
-Indifferent towards Red Hood. He's looked to be Nightwing's equal on quite a few occasions.
-Totally for putting Drakon in the Top Tier.
-For moving Midnight Sun. Where to, though?
-For putting Thanos with Gamora.

I think it was capt it up who proposed moving Gorgon. I concur in moving him down, but to where I'm uncertain.
No move: 0
Move to Top: 0 *Edited
Move to Second: 3 (Soljer, capt it up, and me [where I'm leaning towards at the moment.])

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Bullseye is far more skilled than Frank, I read Bullseye vs Punisher.. Half the time Bullseye wasn't even being serious and he out-prepped Frank like a *****.

If we were to go for average showing, purely H2H Frank would get utterly wrecked.

Thank you. Maybe now Alfheim will take out all his misplaced hostility and sexual frustration on you, and give me a god damned break.

Have fun! 👆

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
-Already noted.
-N/A
-3 For/0 Against
-No idea, wherever he would be without any Kree Enhancement I'd assume.
-2 For/0 Against

I think it was capt it up who proposed moving Gorgon. I concur in moving him down, but to where I'm uncertain
No move: 0
Move to Top: 1 (Soljer?)
Move to Second: 2 (capt it up, and me [where I'm leaning towards at the moment.])

Gorgon to second tier. He's skilled, but he doesn't have enough feats to really back a top-tier placement.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok this is rubbish. You are making a statement without backing it up....prove it.

Thats another statement with out backing it up.

Ok lets take this for example. Is Bullseye any less brutal than Frank?

Prove it? That's not needed here. Take it to the versus forums. All that matters here is skill, and it's common knowledge that Black Panther is less skilled than those in the top tier.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Bullseye is far more skilled than Frank, I read Bullseye vs Punisher.. Half the time Bullseye wasn't even being serious and he out-prepped Frank like a *****.

Was it H2h though?

Originally posted by CasanoVa

If we were to go for average showing, purely H2H Frank would get utterly wrecked.

If you look at Apocalypse average showings he should get beaten by alot of weaker people too.

Furthermore why should Bullseye beat the **** out of Frank when he has done this had good showings against DD, Cap and even Spiderman dont you think they are making him weaker. Look.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Punisher vs DD

If frank can put up this good of a fight against DD hes a top tier martial artist.

http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6057xo.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6069kr.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6074yb.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6089is.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6095mh.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6116zo.jpg
http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6120vi.jpg
http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6139lz.jpg

Originally posted by Soljer
Prove it? That's not needed here.

Er your supposed to discuss it actually. A good discussion involves providing evidence for you're claims. Thats a cop out anyway you never provided any evidence even in the vs forum.

3. Discussion should take place before a change,

Originally posted by Soljer

Take it to the versus forums. All that matters here is skill, and it's common knowledge that Black Panther is less skilled than those in the top tier.

Furthermore I can think of at least two other people who think that Bp is top tier.

Are you blind? He BITES daredevil, and STOMPS ON HIM WHILE HE'S ON THE FUGGING GROUND!

You just proved our point for us. Frank is a moderate to good fighter who uses insane brutality to keep up with people who are vastly superior.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er your supposed to discuss it actually. A good discussion involves providing evidence for you're claims. Thats a cop out anyway you never provided any evidence even in the vs forum.

[B]3. Discussion should take place before a change,

Furthermore I can think of at least two other people who think that Bp is top tier. [/B]

Apolloknight? 🙄 He's more biased than Capt it up is for Wolverine, and you are for Captain America.

Combined.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Was it H2h though?

If you look at Apocalypse average showings he should get beaten by alot of weaker people too.

Furthermore why should Bullseye beat the **** out of Frank when he has done this had good showings against DD, Cap and even Spiderman dont you think they are making him weaker. Look.

🙄 Why bring Apocalypse into this? He gets what he deserves nowadays, just because he used to be a huge threat doesn't mean he should be now.

Show me more feats for Frank that even put him on level with some of this stuff:

Bullseye defeats Black Widow.
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/8492/fight15qg.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3350/fight20vl.gif
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7602/fight34ub.gif

Defeats Daredevil. Notice that he hits his nylon cable with a bullet.
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7361/fight50wp.gif

Bullseye goes toe to toe with Daredevil. A great battle, I think.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6159/fight96mc.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6915/fight109ea.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1997/fight113fa.gif
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9481/fight122xa.gif

Rolls with Daredevil’s surprise attack.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5200/fightingskills12yy.gif

Even after thrown through wooden door, Bullseye still manages to kick Daredevil in the jaw.
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/1866/fightingskills23mx.gif

Bullseye takes out two trained fighters in few panels.
http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/8880/fightingskills32yx.gif

The legendary fight with Elektra. Bullseye, like most of you know, wins. He pretty much controls the battle.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7756/fight138fi.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2649/fight144ny.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9126/fight153eb.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3609/fight167op.gif
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6143/fight170oq.gif

The following fight with Daredevil is great also. Although Bullseye doesn't win, his skills still prove to be hard for even DD to win.
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/4930/fight180il.gif
http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/8770/fight192ms.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/7991/fight207qn.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/4524/fight212ib.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/1967/fight220du.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/738/fight231hq.gif

Pretty much defeats Gambit.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/838/fight244hl.gif
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/94/fight254wy.gif
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3218/fight266ss.gif

Fights Captain America.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4583/fight388sa.gif
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3349/fight394wg.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/985/fight406lp.gif

Vs Punisher…the feat with grenade and toothpick is just crazy.
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03169on.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03170lr.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03189aq.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03194ou.jpg
http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03207lc.jpg
http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03212gw.jpg

Fights Punisher in hand to hand, and doesn't fare that bad.
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3387/fight412ul.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4317/fight428xf.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5732/fight433rx.gif

Defeats Daredevil. Uses his tooth as weapon. Also notice that he has killed people there with kitchen utensils.
http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/5235/fight273jw.gif
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1392/fight280yx.gif
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/580/fight294ta.gif

Lands nicely on his feet after being thrown from quite high.
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/7490/fight370by.gif

Fights Daredevil AND Elektra on the same time, showing really amazing Martial Arts skills. Uses etc.Pieces of glass as weapons.
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/3244/fight304jy.gif
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/4454/fight314wg.gif
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9222/fight323jl.gif
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5995/fight335ys.gif
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/1281/fight344nh.gif
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/8176/fight359hb.gif
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/9914/fight363pr.gif

And then I'll say Frank can beat him, but guess what.. You won't be able to, why? because he doesn't have half the skills Bullseye does.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
why? because he doesn't have half the skills Bullseye does.

And that's being generous to Frank.

Originally posted by Soljer
Are you blind? He BITES daredevil, and STOMPS ON HIM WHILE HE'S ON THE FUGGING GROUND!

You just proved our point for us. Frank is a moderate to good fighter who uses insane brutality to keep up with people who are vastly superior.

Does it do that in the Bullseye fight....no.

I know in the DD fight he uses brutality but he also dislocates DDs arm with a martial art move and he also suprises him. This is just a case of you picking what elements you like and not looking at the whole picture. Yes Frank is less skilled and more brutal but he still has alot of skill.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore I can think of at least two other people who think that Bp is top tier.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes Frank is less skilled and more brutal but he still has alot of skill.

Good. That's why he's in the tier below, but still on the list. Glad we got that sorted out.

List update.

Current Hierarchy

Cosmic tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, Thanos

Uber tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Ogun, Stick

Top tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Deadpool, Daredevil, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Deathstroke, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Wonder Woman, X-23

Third tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, Storm, Thing

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1/ 2 definite, possible 4 (Nataku? V?)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier:

Comments:
-One spot for someone to move up from the Second Tier from Marvel. Not sure where to move him though. Suggestions?
-I'm proposing moving Midnight Sun out of the highest group, unless someone has something to indicate he's there solely through skill. Don't know where to though. Suggestions?
-Added X-23, Arsenal. Opposition to their placement?
-Any other changes?

I'm definetly agaisnt Punisher being second tier
I'm for Sabertooth in Third.

Where would we put Gambit in this? Third? 😖

I'd support moving Sabretooth to Third-Tier based on feats. However, I'd be inclined to wait to move him until we could get some input from Capt or Jinzin. I know that Sabretooth is supposed to be incredibly skilled, but I don't have any feats at hand. I support your decision, but I'd like to get the other side's opinion, as well.

As far as moving someone up from Marvel, I say we don't. We have six marvel characters, I'd rather add at least one indie character to the list. Any suggestions there?

Failing that, I'd say either Daredevil or Nick Fury would be the most skilled in the second tier.

Still no idea where to move midnight sun.

Gambit? I wouldn't, personally, put him on Nightwing and Elektra's level. Third is probably about right.

Originally posted by Soljer
Good. That's why he's in the tier below, but still on the list. Glad we got that sorted out.

What so you're going to ignore the other half of what I wrote down? Prove my point you pick the evidence you like without looking at the whole picture.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
🙄 Why bring Apocalypse into this? He gets what he deserves nowadays, just because he [b]used to be a huge threat doesn't mean he should be now. [/B]

Well alot of people would disagree alot of people think that Apoc jobs eg ducking from a table thrown by Namor. My point is that Frank ahs some really good showings and taken into account theres nothing to say he should get beaten badly by Bullseye if he is written properly.

Originally posted by CasanoVa

Bullseye defeats Black Widow.
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/8492/fight15qg.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3350/fight20vl.gif
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7602/fight34ub.gif

Defeats Daredevil. Notice that he hits his nylon cable with a bullet.
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7361/fight50wp.gif

Bullseye goes toe to toe with Daredevil. A great battle, I think.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6159/fight96mc.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6915/fight109ea.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1997/fight113fa.gif
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9481/fight122xa.gif

Rolls with Daredevil’s surprise attack.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5200/fightingskills12yy.gif

Even after thrown through wooden door, Bullseye still manages to kick Daredevil in the jaw.
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/1866/fightingskills23mx.gif

Bullseye takes out two trained fighters in few panels.
http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/8880/fightingskills32yx.gif

The legendary fight with Elektra. Bullseye, like most of you know, wins. He pretty much controls the battle.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7756/fight138fi.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2649/fight144ny.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9126/fight153eb.gif
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3609/fight167op.gif
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6143/fight170oq.gif

The following fight with Daredevil is great also. Although Bullseye doesn't win, his skills still prove to be hard for even DD to win.
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/4930/fight180il.gif
http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/8770/fight192ms.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/7991/fight207qn.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/4524/fight212ib.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/1967/fight220du.gif
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/738/fight231hq.gif

Pretty much defeats Gambit.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/838/fight244hl.gif
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/94/fight254wy.gif
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3218/fight266ss.gif

Fights Captain America.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4583/fight388sa.gif
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3349/fight394wg.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/985/fight406lp.gif

Vs Punisher…the feat with grenade and [b]toothpick is just crazy.
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03169on.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03170lr.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03189aq.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03194ou.jpg
http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03207lc.jpg
http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullseye03212gw.jpg

Fights Punisher in hand to hand, and doesn't fare that bad.
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3387/fight412ul.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4317/fight428xf.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5732/fight433rx.gif

Defeats Daredevil. Uses his tooth as weapon. Also notice that he has killed people there with kitchen utensils.
http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/5235/fight273jw.gif
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1392/fight280yx.gif
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/580/fight294ta.gif

Lands nicely on his feet after being thrown from quite high.
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/7490/fight370by.gif

Fights Daredevil AND Elektra on the same time, showing really amazing Martial Arts skills. Uses etc.Pieces of glass as weapons.
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/3244/fight304jy.gif
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/4454/fight314wg.gif
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9222/fight323jl.gif
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5995/fight335ys.gif
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/1281/fight344nh.gif
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/8176/fight359hb.gif
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/9914/fight363pr.gif

And then I'll say Frank can beat him, but guess what.. You won't be able to, why? because he doesn't have half the skills Bullseye does. [/B]

Theres this fight with Cap as well, he evades a suprise attacka nd deflects Caos shield. You also have to bare in mind some of those Bullseye fights are not strictly H2H, and he uses alot of weapons. the critera for this ranking is without weapons. I think Bullseye would beat Frank with weapons as well.

http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=91333&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150&sid=1d0366b71333847921523d21ed0e6f54