[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 3 (V, Me, Soljer)/0 (But on hold for further discussion.)
I would put Gambit in Third, probably the lower end of Third, if not just 4th without his heightened agility.
It would be good to have an Indie character or two. But was trying to keep the Marvel/DC balance. Perhaps should have it 7 a piece with 2 dedicated spots to Indie (regardless of whether they're filled,) total max 16 for now.
Originally posted by Soljer
I'd support moving Sabretooth to Third-Tier based on feats. However, I'd be inclined to wait to move him until we could get some input from Capt or Jinzin. I know that Sabretooth is supposed to be incredibly skilled, but I don't have any feats at hand. I support your decision, but I'd like to get the other side's opinion, as well.As far as moving someone up from Marvel, I say we don't. We have six marvel characters, I'd rather add at least one indie character to the list. Any suggestions there?
Failing that, I'd say either Daredevil or Nick Fury would be the most skilled in the second tier.
Still no idea where to move midnight sun.
Originally posted by capt it up
sabertooth is increadably skilled. He should diffiently remain were he is. He was trained by many different militaries. He at some points in wolverines life may have even been his superior in skill. He has taken Omega red on and won on pure skill. He even once out fought iron fist if I am not mistaken. He is deffenitly a second tier.
I'd need to see the scans of him outskilling Omega Red and Iron Fist. In the latter case it's very possible he used strength, speed, and/or his healing factor to beat Danny.
Also, is that all you have? I know, by bios, he's been trained by umpteen agencies and what not....but via feats?
If all he has is those two, I dunno if that justifies his second tier placement.
Originally posted by capt it upHmm, but how much of that is due to physicality? On a purely equal physical setting would he still be on equal footing with the likes of Elektra, Nick Fury, Black Canary, Daredevil?
sabertooth is increadably skilled. He should diffiently remain were he is. He was trained by many different militaries. He at some points in wolverines life may have even been his superior in skill. He has taken Omega red on and won on pure skill. He even once out fought iron fist if I am not mistaken. He is deffenitly a second tier.
I'm going to retract my vote for now, as I'm ambivalent.
On an unrelated point:
Where would Thor be placed on pure skill level?
Originally posted by Soljer
I'd need to see the scans of him outskilling Omega Red and Iron Fist. In the latter case it's very possible he used strength, speed, and/or his healing factor to beat Danny.Also, is that all you have? I know, by bios, he's been trained by umpteen agencies and what not....but via feats?
If all he has is those two, I dunno if that justifies his second tier placement.
Originally posted by Soljer
I'd need to see the scans of him outskilling Omega Red and Iron Fist. In the latter case it's very possible he used strength, speed, and/or his healing factor to beat Danny.Also, is that all you have? I know, by bios, he's been trained by umpteen agencies and what not....but via feats?
If all he has is those two, I dunno if that justifies his second tier placement.
So you're finshed then. No evidence right?
Originally posted by Alfheim
What so you're going to ignore the other half of what I wrote down? Prove my point you pick the evidence you like without looking at the whole picture.Well alot of people would disagree alot of people think that Apoc jobs eg ducking from a table thrown by Namor. My point is that Frank ahs some really good showings and taken into account theres nothing to say he should get beaten badly by Bullseye if he is written properly.
Theres this fight with Cap as well, he evades a suprise attacka nd deflects Caos shield. You also have to bare in mind some of those Bullseye fights are not strictly H2H, and he uses alot of weapons. the critera for this ranking is [B] without
weapons. I think Bullseye would beat Frank with weapons as well.
I've read the thread before, so what? There's nothing in there to show him a peer of Bullseye in skill, skill-wise Bullseye would wreck him. Punisher's nothing much more than an extremely good damage soaker of a brawler, never has he been touted as "a master martial artist".
Bullseye is very far out of his league, with or without weapons. Even in the fight you posted he had the advantage in most of it, heck he could of shot Punisher in the head had he wanted to, but he chose to throw the gun 😐 if that doesn't prove he wasn't taking it seriously what does?
Bullseye rapes Punisher H2H, lets just leave it at that.
Originally posted by CasanoVa
I've read the thread before, so what? There's nothing in there to show him a peer of Bullseye in skill, skill-wise Bullseye would wreck him. Punisher's nothing much more than an extremely good damage soaker of a brawler, never has he been touted as "a master martial artist".
Yes but is that how he beats Bullseye? Yes he takes damage but basically he beat Bullseye because he hit him more times. Again there the latest fight with DD where he doesnt just soak damage he uses alot of skill as well as brutality....see.
Skill. Here he block a punch and a kick at the same time from DD.
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6069kr.jpg
Here he manages to dislocate DD's arm..using an MA move
http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevilvspunisher6120vi.jpg
Sure DD is more skillful but Punisher didnt just use pure brutality in that fight. To ignore the skill that Punisher used in that fight would be unfair.
Originally posted by CasanoVa
Bullseye is very far out of his league, with or without weapons. Even in the fight you posted he had the advantage in most of it,
Yeah but you're missing the point. Alot of those fights were not purely H2H so they dont even count as evidence. The Cap vs Bullseye fight they didnt even fight H2H. You posted alot of scsns and some of them dont even count as evidence.
Originally posted by CasanoVa
heck he could of shot Punisher in the head had he wanted to, but he chose to throw the gun 😐 if that doesn't prove he wasn't taking it seriously what does?Bullseye rapes Punisher H2H, lets just leave it at that.
Ok do you think hes taken it serioulsy now?
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40182ho.jpg
Clearly he underestimated him because he thought since he can take Frank out with throwing stuff he could do the same H2H. If Bullseye was that good he should have been able to adapt and should have been able to beat him.
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vfxpunishvervsbullseye40182ho.jpg
Furthermore Punisher beings able to take a suprise attacj from Punisher doesnt count? Bullseye takes a suprise attack from DD but that counts...sounds like bias to me.
Also if you're are going to include weapons in Bullseye's feats Punisher also has good showings against Wolverine one withut Einis. Cant be assed to show the rest.
http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punwolviemb7.jpg
Punisher vs Moon knight
Originally posted by jgiant
thjey are both holding back but are able to damage each other. Frank is also aware that Moon Knigt is stalling him.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Punisher PWNING DD
A ggod showing vs DD of course he loses in the end.
Originally posted by Alfheim
So you're finshed then. No evidence right?
Sab...re...tooth...
Save your Punisher man-love for someone who gives a damn.
I maintain, on sabretooth, though, that we wait to move him till after we hear a little more from Capt and perhaps from Jinzin. The two would probably know more than me on the subject.
Winter Soldier is second tier in skill.
Karnak is probably the same, via showings. He SHOULD be Uber-tier, but it never quite turns out that way.
David Cain was great, but he seemed to be a notch below his students, so I'd probably put him second tier as well.
Ravager was probably around the same as her daddy.
Just to throw out some opinions on some of the people you named, X.
Also noticed that you have Deathstroke after Eric.
Alfheim, PUNISHER ISN'T EVEN A ****ING MARTIAL ARTIST! He's a goddamn mean ass mother****er who beats on people with skills he's learned through experience. He's a damn good fighter, there is no doubt, but does he even fight like a martial artist? No! Because he isn't one. He's third tier, because like in MMA, if you know how to fight at all, you can still beat the most skilled fighters just by experience and toughness.
Frank can fight, no one's denying that, one of the best brawlers out there, but his martial arts skills are much lower than many of these people.
Marvel comics presents Wolverine issue 136. Has sabertooth fighting IF. He seems to be toying with IF the whole fight and out fighting him.
Wolverine issue 10: Sabertooth beats wolverine not once, but twice and it was pritty much by a curf stomp.
Xfactor featuring omega red issue 138: Sabertooth out fights omega red.
The rest of my comics with sabertooth in them are at home so if these fights are not good enough then feel free to move him down though I would advize to wait until jinzin had his say.
Originally posted by SoljerHmm that's weird the alphabetizing was automated, must've happened during some reshuffling.
Sab...re...tooth...Save your Punisher man-love for someone who gives a damn.
I maintain, on sabretooth, though, that we wait to move him till after we hear a little more from Capt and perhaps from Jinzin. The two would probably know more than me on the subject.
Winter Soldier is second tier in skill.
Karnak is probably the same, via showings. He SHOULD be Uber-tier, but it never quite turns out that way.
David Cain was great, but he seemed to be a notch below his students, so I'd probably put him second tier as well.
Ravager was probably around the same as her daddy.
Just to throw out some opinions on some of the people you named, X.
Also noticed that you have [b]D
eathstroke after Eric. [/B]
I would concur with those placements.
Nemesis Kid wouldn't be placed in Uber nor Cosmic. This list is on the basis of skill.
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Alfheim, PUNISHER ISN'T EVEN A ****ING MARTIAL ARTIST! He's a goddamn mean ass mother****er who beats on people with skills he's learned through experience. He's a damn good fighter, there is no doubt, but does he even fight like a martial artist? No!
Frank can fight, no one's denying that, one of the best brawlers out there, but his martial arts skills are much lower than many of these people.
OK answer these questions then, if hes not a real martial artist why is he:
1. Quick enough to evade a suprise attack from Captain America, deflect his shield and stop Cap from using it.
2. Has early showings where eventhough he was losing hit DD a significant number of times. In the lastest fight used a move to dislocate DD arm and if you look at the scans carefully used some moves to evade DD's blows Furthermore one of the reasons why Frank was stamping on DD's head was because his head was on the ground. Bullseyes tried to do the samething to Frank as well when his head was on the ground....stamp on his head.
3. Used skill to beat the **** of Bullseye.
Have you actually bothered to look at my scans?
Originally posted by SoljerSave your Punisher man-love for someone who gives a damn.
Well if you still think that Elecktra can beat BP after evidence was shown that BP can out speed Wolverine on Two occassion then clearly you're not an objective person and you're opinion doesnt count....but oh well thats life.
Moon knight is second tier right and Punisher doesnt fight like an MA. What does this look like to you?
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p106mz.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p110zj.jpg
Punisher vs Black Widow who is top tier as well. AS you can see in both fights Frank uses MA skill, but on top of that and my other scans Frank should get raped by Bullseye and wins fights by sheer brutality.
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow28jr.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow37wd.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow40dg.jpg
