Update.
Current Hierarchy [194]
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis
Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [10]
Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [58]
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [67]
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, "Mad Dog" Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sage, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [38]
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel
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Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 2 [llag, Nataku]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Me, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Smurph, Nataku]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, Smurph, capt, endrict]
Midnighter to second: 1 [Soljer] / 1 [endrict]
Blade to second: 2 [endrict, Darth Martin] / 2 [llagrok, capt]
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Additions:
I've added Alpha (Michael Sommers) and the "Mad Dog" to third tier for now. The latter actually managed to kill Batgirl, but imo it's more due to brutality than pure skill. As always their placement is subject to discussion and change.
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Notes:
- The last tier has been dissolved. If you think a character that has been removed should be re-added or a character that has been retained be removed then suggestions are welcome.
For reference purposes the characters removed were the following:
Apocalypse, Grace Choi, Hulk, Monet St. Croix, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man,
- N.B. The Top Tier are characters above ~90th percentile of the total hierarchy top tier and under.
There are currently 18 Top Tier slots divided as follows:
Marvel - 8
DC - 8
Independent/Other - 2
- If you feel a character should be moved up or down, please actually state such, so that I do not have to guess intentions.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
yeah, but putting Bullseye in the tipsy top tier based on that seems pretty skewed to me.maybe that's where he belongs though.
for that matter, guns also require skill.
We factor in their overall profinciency in every area of trained combat though.Batman would still be top because he is in the top 10 in virtually every area...Bullseye may be top in 1 area, but lacking in others.
Less finesse in using a gun.Nothing more advanced then Bow and Arrow Tech IMO.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
yeah, but putting Bullseye in the tipsy top tier based on that seems pretty skewed to me.maybe that's where he belongs though.
for that matter, guns also require skill.
True however, I would necessarily say they require martial arts skill. I would assume that melee and range weapons should be separated.
If your a skilled swordsmen, you are also to be at least moderately skilled in h2h combat. Because you still uses punches, kicks, throws ect. Just is the cases with Samurai. However you can bee a skilled archer with out the need to be skilled with MA or h2h combat.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
We factor in their overall profinciency in every area of trained combat though.Batman would still be top because he is in the top 10 in virtually every area...Bullseye may be top in 1 area, but lacking in others.Less finesse in using a gun.Nothing more advanced then Bow and Arrow Tech IMO.
My post above explains my thoughts on range weapons
Originally posted by Battlehammer
True however, I would necessarily say they require martial arts skill. I would assume that melee and range weapons should be separated.If your a skilled swordsmen, you are also to be at least moderately skilled in h2h combat. Because you still uses punches, kicks, throws ect. Just is the cases with Samurai. However you can bee a skilled archer with out the need to be skilled with MA or h2h combat.
However you'll find that virtually every archer in comicdom is agile/acrobatic or at least skilled in evasive maneuvers
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Really? I mean I created a thread of Batman with weapon vs Top MA ect with the same weapons and almost none believed Batman to be more skilled.
By all areas i wasn't referring exclusively to weapons.By all area's i meant Weapon proficiency,H2H Proficiency,stealth,tactics ETC.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
However you'll find that virtually every archer in comicdom is agile/acrobatic or at least skilled in evasive maneuvers
Originally posted by Martian_mind
By all areas i wasn't referring exclusively to weapons.By all area's i meant Weapon proficiency,H2H Proficiency,stealth,tactics ETC.
Not many believed he was overly proficient compared to other with weaponry.
What does stealth have to do with ones MA skill? Tactics though aid one in combat, does not technically prove ones skill in h2h. Midnighter for one, though his tactical ability makes him very formidable, when stripped of such enhancements he was beaten by a simple jujitsu practitioner.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
You can have gun finesse.Killer (I think that's what his name was) from Wanted shot the wings off of flies with a gun.
also how about about the art of chokes, locks ect. They seem to be overlooked quite often. Not many MA in either company display such knowledge
Originally posted by Battlehammer
yes and? Just because your agile or acrobatic does not make you skilled in Martial artsNot many believed he was overly proficient compared to other with weaponry.
What does stealth have to do with ones MA skill? Tactics though aid one in combat, does not technically prove ones skill in h2h. Midnighter for one, though his tactical ability makes him very formidable, when stripped of such enhancements he was beaten by a simple jujitsu practitioner.
Just because you can kick and punch while weilding a sword doesn't make you a skilled MA...
You proposed several people who are known to be highly adept with those weapons,How does not being superior to them mean Batman is unskilled with them? It doesn't help that Batman is rarely seen using them,but when he does it's often against some of the best there is.
Again,I'm working off an "overall combat skill" perspective,and being able to blend in with shadows whilst formulating several off the cuff battle strategies,while still being a fantastic MA are examples of combat effectiveness.If one is proficent with weapons too,power to them.I'm looking at them as package deals,instead of focusing on one aspect.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Just because you can kick and punch while weilding a sword doesn't make you a skilled MA...
Originally posted by Martian_mind
You proposed several people who are known to be highly adept with those weapons,How does not being superior to them mean Batman is unskilled with them? It doesn't help that Batman is rarely seen using them,but when he does it's often against some of the best there is.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Again,I'm working off an "overall combat skill" perspective,and being able to blend in with shadows whilst formulating several off the cuff battle strategies,while still being a fantastic MA are examples of combat effectiveness.If one is proficent with weapons too,power to them.I'm looking at them as package deals,instead of focusing on one aspect.
Here the thing that point of the thread is MA. It not overall abilities, becuases that becomes quite ambiguous as to what qualifies as combat skills. And this would actually aid me since wolverine has a lot of unique skills such as stealth that other individuals lack. However this does not qualify as one MA abilities, because it would then allow for individuals to argue that people like spiderman who have shown little to no MA skill grounds to advance